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Mary G
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... etc, etc ....
If you have say a 7yo, 10yo, 11yo, and you want them to really learn to write ... and just say your dh works for the Catholic Church so you really can't waste money in buying whatever writing program you buy ...
What would you buy?
I need something that will keep me honest (scripting is not my preferred, but if it's all written, I might actually do it) ... something that the kids will enjoy ... and something that will teach them to write.
I wish there was a combo program out there that included writing, grammar and copywork/dictation. Is there? Do I have to build my own?
Any advice (and prayers) are appreciated! 
THANKS
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MaryG
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Mackfam
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Mary,
I don't have Writing with Ease, but I do have IEW and Writers Jungle, both of which are rather $$, but both are good for different types of approaches and different children.
I've heard really good things about Writing with Ease. I think MicheleQ might use it, and Maryan...there's a really helpful thread here just in case you haven't seen it yet.
And, be sure to read through this long, but very informative thread which juxtaposes Writer's Jungle and IEW. You'll probably be able to get a good feel for which program would be best for you guys after you read it! There are also some great links to past threads on the subject within that one thread!
I don't want to trivialize either of these programs, but let me see if I can give you an *in a nutshell* of the strengths of each of these programs...
Writer's Jungle/Bravewriter program
** Integrates well with a CM approach in the home
** Helps develop each child's writing "voice"
** Moves in manageable increments so you don't overwhelm the hesitant writer all at once
** Builds a love for writing as a form of expressing your thoughts.
** Helps the parent assess where the child's writing abilities are *right now* and how to move them gently to develop their ability.
** The program and book is for the parent...this means that you, the parent, have to read and implement. It isn't hard to do, and I actually prefer this because it means writing is more organic and less "structured"...ie. "do this page of the book and complete this writing assignment". This is important for the child who really enjoys writing...but only writing they want to do, not stale reports or essays which might be assigned.
** Offers you the tools to support and assist each child wherever they are on the writing spectrum. Mentioning this because you're looking for one program for 3 kids, and my experience with this program is that it would be a really good fit and will help with ALL levels of writing ability...because it gives you tools to assess and then help you know what the next step in their writing should be.
** If you're looking for a program that can integrate well with whatever you're using in lit or history reading choices, this would be the one. The program is about tools to use in writing, and helping develop the writer's voice, and less about *a curriculum*...so the ideas translate to whatever you're reading as a basis for writing, rather than assigning something so that writing seems disconnected and set apart from everything else. This was a BIG concern/priority I had when considering approaches & programs, and it's one of the reasons this program is such a good fit for our family. I guess it's easier for me to stomach the $$ when I consider that the ideas and approach are used for many children. Expensive as it was, it was a good investment for us.
IEW
** I think this program integrates well with a more Classical approach in the home, but I definitely don't think it is limited to the family who uses a classical approach...just saying that it works and blends well with that emphasis.
** Systematic and would be more of a scripted program
** Uses a formula approach to writing - very helpful for the child who gets the *startled-deer-in-the-headlight* look when a piece of paper and writing assignment are placed in front of him.
** Great for helping the child learn how to build an outline of his thoughts for writing (note...if you and your kids have been doing narrations regularly, this may seem annoying or elementary because they've been learning how to organize their thoughts through their narrations.)
** Is completely laid out for the parent with lessons/DVD - VERY helpful if you're intimidated to *teach* writing. The DVD does it for you!
** This is a straightforward, no-nonsense program.
** This program can also be used across a spectrum of ages, and can be used with all the children in your family...so again, it is an investment program.
********************************************************
Gee, I tried to seem neutral in this review, but I guess it's pretty obvious which program works best for our family. I sure hope there are enough tools here to give you a start in discerning though. There are families for whom IEW is a VERY good fit. I think Marilyn found it to be extremely workable and a good fit for their family! And, I think Mary Chris uses it and really enjoys it.
Unfortunately, Writing with Ease wasn't available when I was looking a few years ago.  And, I'm loathe to extend any more family $$ when what we're doing is working well, but I am intrigued and it seems such a great value and fit with a CM approach to learning! If I were discerning today, it would be where I would start!!
I believe WWE includes copywork/dictation in their workbooks, but hopefully Maryan or someone else can answer that.
MaryG wrote:
| I wish there was a combo program out there that included writing, grammar and copywork/dictation. Is there? |
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Yes!
** Primary Language Lessons
** Intermediate Language Lessons
** Stories with a View
** Lingua Mater
** Lingua Mater Americana
All available from Margot at Hillside!! I like all of these programs as well!  I've used all of these at some point except for Margot's newest - Lingua Mater Americana.
Hope this is a start at least, Mary!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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Mary G
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Jen ... woohoo ... you are amazing! Thanks for this write-up ... it really helps to sythesize everything in one spot.
A couple of questions:
IEW: why do I need the DVDs ... doesn't he just have a book I can read? I'm a reading-learner, not a visual. And it seems like it could be way cheaper if he created a manual and ditched the dvds?
Writer's Jungle: you say it's more organic. Does that mean that it leaves it up to the mom to create the assignments or does it give suggestions like "write a biography of a famous person" or "here's how to write an outline" ... does that make sense? I like that it's written specifically to the teacher -- but what does that do for the student? Are the "online magazines" where you get writing prompts from or what?
WWE: seems to integrate well with the FLL1-4 but I'm confused about what I would need to buy ... just the workbooks, the tm or the whole set?
And as far as Margot's books -- I have PLL and ILL and I like them but they just don't seem meaty enough? I haven't tried LM yet.
As a general question: when do folks "worry" about teaching formal writing? Thomas is just starting "6th grade" ... and he's my oldest homeschooled now.
Also, Literature for the Young Lady recommends Jump In ... ever seen or used that?
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MaryG
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JuliaT
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Mary, I wouldn't use WWE for your two oldest. I think IEW might work well if you wanted something for your age span. I don't use it but I have heard good things about it.
If you do get WWE, I have been told that all you really need is the workbooks. I just have the textbook and that worked out very well but I had to find the right kind of models for each week and this took up a lot of my time. One thing about the text book, you only have to buy one but with the workbooks you have to buy one for each year.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: June 16 2010 at 4:16pm | IP Logged
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You're so welcome, Mary. Let's see if I can take a stab at your questions...
Mary G wrote:
A couple of questions:
IEW: why do I need the DVDs ... doesn't he just have a book I can read? I'm a reading-learner, not a visual. And it seems like it could be way cheaper if he created a manual and ditched the dvds? |
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The DVD's are a seminar that are meant to help instruct you how to teach. I'm not sure if you could purchase the program without them, but here's a link directly to Andrew Pudewa's Teaching Writing Structure and Style.
MaryG wrote:
| Writer's Jungle: you say it's more organic. Does that mean that it leaves it up to the mom to create the assignments or does it give suggestions |
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It is written to you, but it gives some specific helps in terms of what assignments might look like, what a sample language arts schedule might look like...in other words...it gives you the ideas and the philosophy and you apply that to your day. When I say "organic" I mean that I choose writing projects based on a passion or a particular course of study - something we're already doing. The writing is connected and significant - not an offshoot or unrelated tangential part of the day. The children learn the basics of writing with material the child has a natural interest in or knowledge of.
There are definite helps on how to do book reports and essays in the material. You choose the subject matter - Writer's Jungle offers the tools and skills and ways for you to effectively communicate them.
I'm fine with integrating writing assignments into our days, but there are specific ideas for assignments (and lots of them actually) in the manual if you draw a blank.
MaryG wrote:
| Are the "online magazines" where you get writing prompts from or what? |
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Yes. If you'd like a little more direction, I found The Arrow, The Boomerang and The Slingshot to be helpful. You can download samples from the site to take a look at them.
MaryG wrote:
| And as far as Margot's books -- I have PLL and ILL and I like them but they just don't seem meaty enough? I haven't tried LM yet. |
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I use them as a supplement to narrations and dictation selections, and the approach to writing we use with Writer's Jungle. They're nice for gently integrating a bit of grammar into the picture and work well on an as needed basis around here. Lingua Mater is quite meaty and incorporates everything, including great writing prompts.
MaryG wrote:
| As a general question: when do folks "worry" about teaching formal writing? Thomas is just starting "6th grade" ... and he's my oldest homeschooled now. |
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I can see now that we were already laying down a great foundation with narrations and dictations well before I started thinking...OH MY STARS - WRITING???!!!! Writing comes naturally for the children because of the level of literature they read. The Bravewriter program really just helped cement our approach and gave me a few more tools to assist the kids so that they refined the skill a bit more. I think that's why it works so well for our family - it supports the way we naturally write and helped me visualize and assist the kids in moving from oral narrations (which is more than half the battle, once oral narrations are mastered the child is able to organize his/her thoughts well)...to...written narrations (getting those thoughts and narrations into the written word.)
MaryG wrote:
| Also, Literature for the Young Lady recommends Jump In ... ever seen or used that? |
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I'm not familiar with it at all.
This year, for high school with my 9th grader, I'm using Bravewriter's Help For Highschool and Jensen's Format Writing. We'll see how they work out!
Hope this helps clarify a little more for you, Mary!
Anybody else have other experiences to offer?
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Jen Mackintosh
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cvbmom
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Mary G wrote:
IEW: why do I need the DVDs ... doesn't he just have a book I can read? I'm a reading-learner, not a visual. And it seems like it could be way cheaper if he created a manual and ditched the dvds?
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I am SOOOOO with you on this one. Also, I don't have time for DVDs, but I do have reading time.
That said, though, IEW has been GREAT for our family. I purchased the Student Seminars (somewhat cheaper) then got enough info from that to go on to the books (like All Things Fun and Fascinating). I did listen to some of Andrew Pudewa's talks about the program from the e-audio section of their downloads to get a basic idea of the program ($3 mp3 downloads).
I really did like Bravewriter, but we needed more structure this year.
I also liked Write with the Best, especially for narration/dictation and copywork in the early years, but needed a higher level workbook that doesn't exist yet. I just don't have time to plan just using the guidelines in the hardbound book.
So there's another point of view for you
If you need clarification on anything, I'm here...
God bless,
Christine
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stacykay
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With IEW, AP is actually the lecturer, and has a classroom of children. Ds likes seeing what other kids come up with so he feels like he is on the right track. A. Pudewa really emphasizes the need for working on chalk/white boards, brainstorming things and having them written down for children to see.
There are text-only writing books that coordinate with the IEW, but I think they presuppose that you have already worked through the Student Writing Intensive.
I like the IEW, as it takes the basics of the teaching off of my shoulders (ds watches the dvd and goes over the assignments pertinent to each lesson.) I watch the dvd's too, and review ds's work. He has picked up quite a bit.
I have the Writer's Jungle, but haven't utilized it past having son take the Basic Bravewriter course online. We found that more difficult, as it was on someone else's timetable, and not ours. But I am planning on pulling out WJ this summer to see if I might want to implement it, on my own, next fall. Otherwise, the Lingua Mater, mentioned above, sounds promising.
And, yes, I have the Writing with Ease, too (curriculum junkie that I am ) I have almost 9yo ds working on this. It is very gentle, not really anything you coulnd't come up with on your own, just nice to have something scripted. At this point, he is just doing copywork and narrations in it.
Sorry this is kind of choppy, but am off and running to sports! Whoopee! 
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Mary G
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This is all great advice ... keep it coming ladies!
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MaryG
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Maryan
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Mary, we used WWE this year and I preferred it to IEW for *this age.* JP and I watched a video of IEW last summer... and he was just not ready for it imo. But I have friends who LOVE it. So I'm going to give it another look when hwe is in 5th grade.
First my positives about the workbook:
- Economical for me b/c it has a family copyright. And my oldest is 8. So I buy the workbook; I own a copier; buy blank paper... and spend my money in time.
- Easy system. Each level follows a predictable system. That worked better than PLL for me. Level 3: Read short passage, work out narration with mom. Dictation. Read/narrate and dictate. Each narration was a three sentence summary of what he read. Level 1 was even easier. Copywork, read something and narrate one sentence... which for my not-so-glib guy that was easy.
- Interesting lit choices to read. (Although they are just snippets -- it would be more fun to follow her system using actual books that we are reading -- but that would take more planning time than I have.
- Relatively short lessons. Longer than 15 minutes, but not much longer.
- Both kids seem to get the system and learn sentence structure, etc. Next year it will be three kids.
Negative:
- All photocopying HAS to be done in the summer or I fall behind. Thus... we only got half the books done this year.
- The hardcover teacher's manual is a LOVELY size. The teacher's instructions in the workbook are cumbersome. I took the book apart and put it in a binder so that it would be easier for copying, but it's a BIG binder to hold.
- The only kind of writing that we've encountered (so far) is narrating. An occasional write a poem or write a goofy story would be fun... but I'll have to remember to do that.
- I'm not moving on to level 4...because it looks like dictation involves a *paragraph*!! I think that would overwhelm my 4th grader! So it works out nicely that we didn't finish level 3. Level 3 dictation is a sentence or two. Level 2 involves one sentence studied dictation. Level 1 doesn't have any dictation.
With all my littles, a predictable writing program works best for us. We're loosey goosey as it is. Would it work for the ages of your kids? Hmmm... not sure since I can't speak about Level 4.
BTW- Christianbook.com has a sale until June 18th on the WWE program and their shippng is reasonable.
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Maryan
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leanne maree
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I have used several programs for my DD. including Emma Searles intermediate language art lessons. Yes it was great, and so was Setons various grammar composition and spelling and ...., but after years of using English programs.... this year we were encouraged to buy IEW.
DD uses it throughout all her lessons. I ask her to do a formal IEW project weekly, so she gets to use the style and use the sentence and paragraph dress ups.
I like that there is a dvd and books attached, so if we need to we can go straight to the source as a reference.
DD was a very relunctant writer, now has a blog, a closed blog with friends, and writes letters and writes amazing reports. she is 12- and I was wondering why all other kids could write with such flair and she couldn't--she is an avid reader.
IEW was an expensive, but worthwhile expense for us.
Thats how it has worked for us,
Leanne
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Erin
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Mary
Do you know someone you could borrow the IEW DVDs from to see if it is the right fit? I'll be a dissenting voice and admit the teaching style on the IEW DVDs drove my children mad. His teaching style was way different to mine (he talks incessantly) and they couldn't handle it. but I do hear rave reviews from others.
I have Writers Jungle and should use it but I've gotten busy I do like it though alot but it isn't scripted, I see it more as empowering.
The best thing I have done for my children's writing is to form a "Writing Club" in the last six months. Once a week 2 other families come to my home and for an hour 11 children between the ages of 8-16 write. Often they write on the same topic, sometimes they select from a couple. We have mostly focused on fiction. One week they had to research and give a formal speech. Each week they have to read their story aloud. We are fairly relaxed (that is the teaching style of all three mums) and often decide what to do that morning on the phone The older children are now ready to move onto more formal work.
All the children now LOVE to write, they are excited! and truthfully amaze us with their ability. The synergy is amazing.
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Mary G
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Erin wrote:
The best thing I have done for my children's writing is to form a "Writing Club" in the last six months. Once a week 2 other families come to my home and for an hour 11 children between the ages of 8-16 write. Often they write on the same topic, sometimes they select from a couple. We have mostly focused on fiction. One week they had to research and give a formal speech. Each week they have to read their story aloud. We are fairly relaxed (that is the teaching style of all three mums) and often decide what to do that morning on the phone The older children are now ready to move onto more formal work.
All the children now LOVE to write, they are excited! and truthfully amaze us with their ability. The synergy is amazing. |
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I guess this is what I'm most curious about ... will the kids write, and write well, given access to beautiful readings and practice and just write what they want to write. I guess you could almost call it an unschooling way or a "masterly inactivity" method of approaching writing???? Do I NEED to do a writing program.
It's funny ... because altho I have older kids, they were in school during the foundational years, so I never had to worry about teaching them how .... just teach them what NOT to do!
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MaryG
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Mackfam
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Mary G wrote:
| I guess this is what I'm most curious about ... will the kids write, and write well, given access to beautiful readings and practice and just write what they want to write. I guess you could almost call it an unschooling way or a "masterly inactivity" method of approaching writing???? Do I NEED to do a writing program. |
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My 2 cents only...but no, I don't think you do. I enjoyed the backup, support, and affirmation of a writing program that meshed well with out learning philosophy, but necessary...no. Really, Mary, if you're not troubled with their writing, I wouldn't mess with a good thing! My own limited experience is that YES...if children are given access to beautiful literature full of noble and worthy thoughts and ideas, and given time to be...masterly inactivity...they WILL write, and write well. They almost can't help it...it comes spilling out of a bright and well-fed imagination.
I was astonished to discover about a year ago that my dd was writing a novel on her own. No prodding or recommending or suggesting from me. In reading it, I do see the influence of the literature she's read, the parsing, the organization of thought, the approach to the story.
Just my 2 cents.
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Jen Mackintosh
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leanne maree
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Mary,
I agree with Erin, and this is sort of what has happened with us. As soon as DD feeling more confident, I approached a couple of dd homeschool girl friends and set up a closed blog. I moderate it and the girls post and its sort of like a writing club.
They now each have a page each and comment on each others posts and as there work is on 'show', DD really tries very hard to put her best work forward.
But it was with the help of IEW. She learnt how to make her work sound and look very readable and interesting.
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Leanne
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A couple of people mentioned blogs, and I thought I'd jump on that bandwagon as well! 
My dd has several private blogs, some she shares with friends, and some are only for her and I. Something about the ownership of the blog as a place for thoughts to land does inspire writing! Blogger has free blogs - and my kids love to personalize and add pictures, etc. In fact, when my dd was using Lingua Mater, I had her do her writing and work on a special blog we created just for her LM work. I could comment on her writing in the comment box. It worked well for us because I set the blog to email me when she posted, and I knew she had completed a writing assignment and could read over it and comment.
I know different folks have different comfort levels with this, but blogs can give a real boost to writing and be a neat place for writing clubs to share.
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Jen Mackintosh
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leanne maree
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Jen, Very creative I like your idea about emailing you when a project is finished.
We are fairly careful with dd as far as the internet is concerned. Our security is set to high.
I am going to suggest and try this approach, with her projects
Leanne
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Mary G
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Jen ... I love the idea of the blog ... blogger lets you set things to private and ONLY we can see it. Brilliant! My college daughter and 10yod set up a blog to discuss Anne of Green Gables while she was off in college and Maggie was reading here. What a great "bonding" experience as well as writing opp! Opening a blog to a select few for a writing "club" is as my sons' fencing coach would say "bee-u-t-iiii-ful"!
Thanks fols for the advice ... I'm on the fence now between Writers Jungle and Bauer's books ... I've got the tm of Writing With Ease on hold at the library and can give it a real go-thru ... and Julie has great samples and stuff on her site.
Any other advice or comments is GREATLY appreciated!
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MaryG
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Erin
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Mary
I've been thinking about this conversation all day  I don't believe that everyone needs a program, certainly not when you are a confident writer like yourself. It is important however to have your children write, and to edit their work, and to publish. Which is why the concept of blogging works well because it makes that polishing process happen. By editing I don't just mean mum edit but often have a joint(parent & writer) or even peer (sibling) edit.
Talk about writing in an integral way, "That author had poor sentence structure" "What twaddle! did you read where ....?" are the sorts of conversations that make children aware. Tthen when it comes to their writing it's a case of "That's very interesting but what word could you use to describe the sunset more vividly?" Have them thinking, talking, discerning about writing.
Certainly having a program can help this process, finding the right fit and knowing what age to add a formal program is my own ongoing dilemma.
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MarilynW
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| Posted: June 18 2010 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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Mary
I would like to share some of my thoughts on writing.
What you select for writing depends on the following:
1. Age of child
2. Preference of child AND mother/teacher (and amount of time the mother/teacher wants to spend on the writing process
3. Gender of child (dare I say it?)
My experience is that any successful writing will depend on much involvement by the parent teacher - in my opinion even the best natural writers need a guide and mentor in writing. Writing (at least in the early years) is not something that can be done independently.
In my home I have a whole range of writers- a very talented natural writer who has a whole shelf full of novels written since she was 4, a reluctant writer and some in between. My view is generally that reading good literature will enable you child to have great ideas. But in my opinion even natural writers will at some point need a program or guidance to improve their writing.
I see writing as having two aspects - firstly the creative aspect of coming up with ideas to write and secondly the means of expressing these ideas clearly and in an organized fashion. Both are important and necessary.
My dd is a natural and very talented writer. We had a very CM writing plan (PLL, ILL and Lingua Mater) until high school. She chose to do two of Seton's Grade 9 writing programs - English and also Grammar and Composition. She had no problems writing several essays a week, received excellent grades and I have to say that her style and organization really improved. She had now requested to switch to IEW for the rest of high school. I think that she can improve her communication further with guidance on structure and style.
My elementary aged boys (just finished Grade 5) have really taken to writing with IEW - it is incredible how much their writing has improved in a single year - and more important how much they enjoy it.
My younger boy has done really well with Writing with Ease. Really you could do your own copywork and narration - but with teaching several children I like to have it all laid out for me.
To summarize - the writing plan in our home is as follows
1. K-3/4 copywork, narration, poetry memorization. Writing with Ease makes this easier. Or other CM books such as PLL, English for the Thoughtful Child etc
2. Grades 4 or 5 - IEW - I watched the TWSS videos myself and then use the theme based (no dvds for the children) - though SWI is easier for complete beginners to IEW.
3. I "plan" on using IEW all the way through middle and high.
My experience with IEW is that it is very parent intensive at first - but really does get easier as you go. The other thing I have found with IEW is that not only has it improved my children's writing - but also their spoken communication - the whole process of organizing their writing has helped them express themselves better in speech too. Also mentioning that their literary analysis program is excellent for Grsdes 5/6 and up - clearly laid up and really helps them think about what they are reading.
I hope this is helpful in some way.
__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
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cvbmom
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Joined: Feb 15 2005
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: June 18 2010 at 9:54am | IP Logged
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MarilynW wrote:
To summarize - the writing plan in our home is as follows
1. K-3/4 copywork, narration, poetry memorization. Writing with Ease makes this easier. Or other CM books such as PLL, English for the Thoughtful Child etc
2. Grades 4 or 5 - IEW - I watched the TWSS videos myself and then use the theme based (no dvds for the children) - though SWI is easier for complete beginners to IEW.
3. I "plan" on using IEW all the way through middle and high.
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Wow, Marilyn, I could have TOTALLY written this - it is EXACTLY what I wrote into our family scope and sequence yesterday. I can't believe it! Hearing another come to this same conclusion totally independent of me coming to this conclusion actually makes me breath easier and feel even more confident of my recent decision. Thanks for sharing!
God bless,
Christine
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Wife to dh - 18 years!
Mom to dd (16), ds (15), dd, (12), dd (11), ds (9), dd (8), dd (7), ds (5), dd (3), ds (2), and ds (1)
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Topic: IEW, Writing with Ease, Writer's Jungle..
