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Erica Sanchez
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Michelle and all,
I am really touched by everything everyone has said. How lucky are we to be a part of such a caring, intelligent, faithful group of women!
One quick question....we have used NFP for spacing purposes as my cycles return ridiculously early even with lots of nursing (last baby at 2 months!). Is this considered "grave" enough of a reason to be using NFP? Should we seriously be considering the possibilities of a baby every year? Please know I am not saying this sarcastically and am really struggling in my heart at the moment with the spacing issue.
One quick comment about teaching teens and young adults....in an ideal world, parents would be teaching their teens all of this information, but of course our world and church (people in the church, anyway) are far from ideal. One of my favorite topics to discuss with/teach the teens when we were youth ministers was the church's beautiful teachings on human sexuality. Many, if not all of them, had simply no idea, getting their information instead from movies, the culture, misinformed teachers (even at their Catholic high schools), wherever. Now I would MUCH rather their parents present this information to them, and really that is where I believe "education" should be focused, on a parish and diocesan level, and given more time and talent would have loved to pursue that direction, but it was quite powerful to be able to say to these kids, 'sex is holy, good, a God-given gift to married couples, unitive and procreative, never to be separated......' They get it when presented that way. They've seen the destruction of the opposite. NFP would be a small part of our presentations/discussions and we were always careful to be very reverent in our choice of words. When they had a decent foundation of the beautiful aspects of the church's teachings, it was so much easier to then get into the abuses like contraception and homosexuality. It was never probably perfect, but we hope seeds were planted. We've chosen a different path for our own children and I want to be the one teaching my children about this stuff and not some youth minister, BUT for teens who are never going to hear it from their parents and maybe not until a marriage prep class, it seemed wrong for them not to know.
Wow....not a very "quick" comment after all....sorry!
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Lisbet
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
One quick question....we have used NFP for spacing purposes as my cycles return ridiculously early even with lots of nursing (last baby at 2 months!). Is this considered "grave" enough of a reason to be using NFP? Should we seriously be considering the possibilities of a baby every year? Please know I am not saying this sarcastically and am really struggling in my heart at the moment with the spacing issue.
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Erica,
My cycles return crazy early also, despite tandem and even a few times triple nursing. They usually return around 2 months and I'm on average pregnant again between 6 and 9 months pp. We have had babies every year and a half or less our entire marriage. There have been a few times I have struggled with it, but I realized it was more my "but this shouldn't happen, I am breastfeeding non-stop" attitude. For me, personally, I feel God has called me to a very interesting life, I feel very strongly about nursing my children, often, and for as long as they like, I feel very strongly about how I 'mother'. I feel it's the way God intended it to be. Then, at the same time, He is King and Lord of my life, including my fertility. So I've found myself having to be very flexible and creative with mothering the way I feel is best, and still being completely open to the souls He sends. How freeing it was for me to discern this, and now spend my time and energy living it!!!
Like someone mentioned in another thread if fertility lasts into our late forties, obviously God doesn't intend everyone to have or be young parents. You could say the same in this situation.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Bridget
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I have another thought about NFP as a life style. (Not when there is grave reason or when the wife is sick or post partum.) I'm not sure how to say it well, so please forgive me and don't throw cyber tomatoes...
It can turn the men into beggars and can make them feel 'bad' for what is their natural instincts and their right towards their wives. It seems to go against the way God created them.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Elizabeth
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Bridget wrote:
I have another thought about NFP as a life style. (Not when there is grave reason or when the wife is sick or post partum.) I'm not sure how to say it well, so please forgive me and don't throw cyber tomatoes...
It can turn the men into beggars and can make them feel 'bad' for what is their natural instincts and their right towards their wives. It seems to go against the way God created them.
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I think you have said it beautifully, Bridget. I think as wives we need to be very careful not to assume that the problem with the NFP abstinence dynamic is lust on our husbands' part. I have heard this complaint again and again. It is entirely possible that lust might not be his problem at all, but lack of tenderness is ours. Is it possible that he's not being lustful but truly seeking the unitive gift God provides married couples? The marital embrace is a genuine expression of love. Is it possible that God Himself created a man to desire to be just that close to his wife? Is it possible that we are being called to a true self-giving, an opening that does require us, at least for a moment, to love without witholding anything? Not only is it possible, but it's also possible that that union, that oneness, will result in a new life and that the new life will benefit spouses more than either spouse could have imagined. Or, no baby might be conceived, but both spouses will come away with a more intimate sense of the other and their marriage will benefit. It's unitive; it has the potential to be procreative. Both aspects are holy. As wives, we have to be very careful to meet our husbands and to embrace their masculinity. There is great good in that for us, too.If NFP is kept in its rightful place, if it is a hardship and a privation that is limited to only grave and serious reasons, then wives will find that they are more responsive and more genuinely loving towards their husbands. In turn, husbands will grow closer to the hearts of their wives.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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amyable
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Elizabeth wrote:
| If NFP is kept in its rightful place, if it is a hardship and a privation that is limited to only grave and serious reasons, then wives will find that they are more responsive and more genuinely loving towards their husbands. In turn, husbands will grow closer to the hearts of their wives. |
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For space, I cropped Elizabeth's quote, but I wanted to say that I loved all of what you said Elizabeth and you too Bridget! It is so true.
We have lived this. When we were NFPing (w/o true *grave* reasons although we had "reasons"  ) it was a vicious cycle of neither one of us getting the intimacy when we needed it, which led us to feel like we had less to give, which made me balk when asked for more intimacy and him complain when I asked for anything else.
Now that we are just letting God be God, our level of love for eachother has skyrocketed, due I believe to not manipulating God's design for unity. If we ever feel the need to use NFP again, I'm sure we'll come at it with a better mindset, as a *sacrifice* and not a standard of living.
BTW, we too were ones who were taught NFP but never fully informed about "grave reasons." It may have been mentioned, but not really discussed. And the whole "children are a blessing" thing and what that really MEANS was not touched on at all! If I could have just known families like many of you, and read this thread 12 years ago  I think I could have saved myself a lot of heartache in trying to thwart God's plans.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I think as wives we need to be very careful not to assume that the problem with the NFP abstinence dynamic is lust on our husbands' part. I have heard this complaint again and again. It is entirely possible that lust might not be his problem at all, but lack of tenderness is ours. Is it possible that he's not being lustful but truly seeking the unitive gift God provides married couples? The marital embrace is a genuine expression of love. Is it possible that God Himself created a man to desire to be just that close to his wife? Is it possible that we are being called to a true self-giving, an opening that does require us, at least for a moment, to love without witholding anything? Not only is it possible, but it's also possible that that union, that oneness, will result in a new life and that the new life will benefit spouses more than either spouse could have imagined. Or, no baby might be conceived, but both spouses will come away with a more intimate sense of the other and their marriage will benefit. It's unitive; it has the potential to be procreative. Both aspects are holy. As wives, we have to be very careful to meet our husbands and to embrace their masculinity. |
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Yes!!! Oh I am so tired of the man bashing I hear again and again as if all that men want is s*x! I have even heard this from prominent Catholic speakers on this subject and both my husband and adults sons were very offended by it!
Quote:
| If NFP is kept in its rightful place, if it is a hardship and a privation that is limited to only grave and serious reasons, then wives will find that they are more responsive and more genuinely loving towards their husbands. In turn, husbands will grow closer to the hearts of their wives. |
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EXACTLY! Bravo Elizabeth! 
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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MicheleQ
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
| One quick question....we have used NFP for spacing purposes as my cycles return ridiculously early even with lots of nursing (last baby at 2 months!). Is this considered "grave" enough of a reason to be using NFP? |
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Oh Erica, no one but you and your dh can answer this. There are too many factors that only you and he know. In the end you must pray hard and discern God's will for your marriage. I'm sorry that's not a helpful answer but you WILL be in my prayers as well.
God bless! 
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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momwise
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Bridget wrote:
| make them feel 'bad' for what is their natural instincts and their right towards their wives. It seems to go against the way God created them. |
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I think you put it very well Bridget. I'm curious though, I thought most couples using NFP were cooperating during the fertile times if they were postponing pregnancy and deciding together when the time was right. At least that's the way it was put to us in class. I never heard any derogatory statements about the man's desires to be closest to his wife; it was just presented to us as a time to communicate non-s*xually, and the verse by Paul about abstinence was given.
Bridget and Amy: the problems you've mentioned are a tremendous cross to bear when only one spouse is faithful to the Church teachings.
Also Wendy......Michelle Q's recommendation about Kimberely Hahn is a good idea. I remember Scott's tape with the story of her rejecting BC while he was in the midst of converting (Protestant Minister Becomes Catholic) had a very big impact on me while I was still in the process of figuring out Church teaching about BC. Have hope and take heart.....I accepted the Church's teaching way before I agreed with it. 
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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Rachel May
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I have finally had a chance to read this thread through! It grew so quickly, I was discouraged and nearly let it slip by; I'm glad I didn't!
Elizabeth wrote:
| I think as wives we need to be very careful not to assume that the problem with the NFP abstinence dynamic is lust on our husbands' part. I have heard this complaint again and again. It is entirely possible that lust might not be his problem at all, but lack of tenderness is ours. Is it possible that he's not being lustful but truly seeking the unitive gift God provides married couples? |
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I can see what you are saying here. I do know women who struggle with being tender and open with their husbands.
However, I also know women who feel that their husband rejects their fertility while seeking the tenderness. Maybe those men have a "contraceptive mentality" toward NFP, and in those cases, I would think a woman would be justified in complaining about "lust."
I don't see this as an unusual situation either since so many of us are raised with a contraceptive mentality to begin with. It can be hard to shake.
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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Lisbet
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Okay, one quick thought about St. Paul's quote. Those that promote NFP as 'good for marriage' often use this quote to support the idea of abstaining, who can argue with scripture, right? Let's not neglect the fact that the main reason for abstaining (while practicing NFP) is to avoid concieving a child, not for prayer. If we were to take Pauls words seriously, we would choose other times to abstain. (this is just a small peeve of mine, and I hear it all the time from NFP instructors.)
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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Rachel May
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momwise wrote:
| I think you put it very well Bridget. I'm curious though, I thought most couples using NFP were cooperating during the fertile times if they were postponing pregnancy and deciding together when the time was right. At least that's the way it was put to us in class. |
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<SIGH> I think in a perfect world this would be true, but for us at least, cooperating has meant one spouse is really deciding and the other is going along with what the first one says. And we do switch roles.
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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JennGM
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Elizabeth wrote:
Bridget wrote:
| It can turn the men into beggars and can make them feel 'bad' for what is their natural instincts and their right towards their wives. It seems to go against the way God created them. |
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I think you have said it beautifully, Bridget. I think as wives we need to be very careful not to assume that the problem with the NFP abstinence dynamic is lust on our husbands' part. I have heard this complaint again and again. It is entirely possible that lust might not be his problem at all, but lack of tenderness is ours. Is it possible that he's not being lustful but truly seeking the unitive gift God provides married couples? |
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Very beautiful, Bridget and Elizabeth. And thank you all for these great discussions. I've needed to spend some time on pondering and examining more deeply on our marriage and these discussions are helping me do just that.
I've heard mention many places that our modern man is becoming emasculated, and not just in modern society. There is unjust Catholic guilt placed on the man if he demands too much, so in trying to be all to everyone, many times he loses his own identity.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Elizabeth
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Jenn wrote:
| I've heard mention many places that our modern man is becoming emasculated, and not just in modern society. There is unjust Catholic guilt placed on the man if he demands too much, so in trying to be all to everyone, many times he loses his own identity. |
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I think Bridget's image of a beggar is incredibly powerful. In so many ways, we would do well to meditate upon our femininity and to beg God to show us how to inspire our husbands to be greater men because we are more feminine women.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Erica Sanchez
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MicheleQ wrote:
Yes!!! Oh I am so tired of the man bashing I hear again and again as if all that men want is s*x! |
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Don't they I am soooooooo kidding!!!!
That begging image makes me terribly sad. That has not been our experience of NFP use at all. Maybe there are other factors involved....with marriage as a whole.
Many, many great thoughts to ponder and pray about.
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Erica Sanchez
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MicheleQ wrote:
Oh Erica, no one but you and your dh can answer this. There are too many factors that only you and he know. In the end you must pray hard and discern God's will for your marriage. I'm sorry that's not a helpful answer but you WILL be in my prayers as well.
God bless! |
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It is helpful, Michelle, and a good reminder to pray hard about it all. Thank you!
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Martha
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jenngm67 wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
Bridget wrote:
| It can turn the men into beggars and can make them feel 'bad' for what is their natural instincts and their right towards their wives. It seems to go against the way God created them. |
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Is it possible that he's not being lustful but truly seeking the unitive gift God provides married couples? |
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I've heard mention many places that our modern man is becoming emasculated, and not just in modern society. There is unjust Catholic guilt placed on the man if he demands too much, so in trying to be all to everyone, many times he loses his own identity. |
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Jumping in a little late here, but after several mentions on the leap of faith thread, I thought I'd come see what all the buzz is about.
I don't want to be crude or tacky, so please forgive me if it comes across that way, but...
Am I the ONLY wife who was incredibly frustrated with s*x while NFP-ing?
When I most had the inclination, it was a no-go. When we were in the the clear, I wasn't interested. It wasn't just my dh. It was me too. Frankly, it was so annoying that after a year we decided we'd rather just not have s*x anymore than do it around the charting.
Then there was the constant feeling of being a failure. My cycles always return no later than 6 months after birth. And those bf-ing charts are horrid to chart - 80% of the time we did not feel confident enough to say it was clear to go and ended up abstaining. NFP is promoted as any faults are not the fault of NFP, but of the users.
As for when to present it...
I'm for after marriage to those interested. However, that doesn't mean a conversation about it shouldn't come up during pre-marital discussions.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
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JennGM
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Martha,
I hate to see your post just hanging there...I know it was hard to write it. I had started and stopped a couple of times on a similar vein. It's hard to discuss some of those things.
Yes to your question. We just threw it all out...to much worry. Non-fertile times are hard to push for both of us.
The NFP teachers quietly admit after you've been practicing that some women's cycles might require 3 weeks plus some of abstinence. That's a lot more than the smaller window they promote. And that leaves times when it feels forced and unnatural or uncomfortable.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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amyable
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Martha wrote:
Am I the ONLY wife who was incredibly frustrated with s*x while NFP-ing?
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YES! I alluded to this somewhere on one of these mega-threads-that-I-can't-keep-straight-anymore. This was the vicious cycle I talked about. I wasn't interested when we could, and felt totally used because we never *could* when I WAS interested (mid-cycle).
Being able to show my dh how much I love him, in the way he really understands as love (i.e. s*x), whenever he needs it, has been the most incredible blessing to our marriage. He is like a new man, lol! And in return he is treating me like a queen.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Jenny
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amyable wrote:
Martha wrote:
Am I the ONLY wife who was incredibly frustrated with s*x while NFP-ing?
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YES! I alluded to this somewhere on one of these mega-threads-that-I-can't-keep-straight-anymore. This was the vicious cycle I talked about. I wasn't interested when we could, and felt totally used because we never *could* when I WAS interested (mid-cycle). |
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This has been & will be a difficult time for us. I know before, when we really had only a vague idea of my body...if I was interested, it was a red flag for my dh! 
We are just now taking the class at my dh's request. I have never felt we had "grave & serious" reason to use NFP. Although I am not as sure as he is at this point, I do have peace about taking the class. We came to this decision after speaking to our priest. Thankfully we have a very orthodox & traditional priest who agreed we may have cause to use NFP for a time.
As a seminarian my priest worked in a crisis pregnancy center. He said they taught the women NFP. He says ideally these women would abstain before marriage, but NFP was better than an abortificiant method or abortion itself. His comment is "Grace builds on nature." Teaching these women the value & beauty of their bodies opened them to God's grace. They were no longer practicing something intrinsicly evil, they were allowing themselves, even if only a little to open up to the beauty of God's call for their fertility. Now, we are not so naive to believe this took place w/every woman, but it did happen. Without the knowledge of NFP, many women would never have opened themselves to hear God. NFP was a baby step in the right direction towards their conversion & trustful surrender to God w/regards to their fertility.
Jenny
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Jenny
Chris' wife and momma of 7. My blog: The Littlest Way--Bible Journaling, Inspiring Bible Quotes, Daily Affirmations, Prayer Journaling & photography
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kingvozzo
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Martha wrote:
Am I the ONLY wife who was incredibly frustrated with s*x while NFP-ing?
When I most had the inclination, it was a no-go. When we were in the the clear, I wasn't interested. |
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All of which points towards God's wonderful design. 
Joining the unitve and procreative aspects of marriage...
I think this is a major reason why many couples 'discard' NFP after a while--it can seem counter-intuitive.
__________________
Noreen
Wife to Ed
Mom to 4 great kids and 10 sweet ones in Our Lady's arms
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Covenanted Happiness
