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saigemom
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 4:02am | IP Logged
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I was very interested in this thread since I have been moving towards mostly skirts and dresses. However, I was extremely disappointed with the tone of some of the comments.
" Speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for those who profess to be part of Christian culture."
What an offensive comment. My children are on swim team and both my boys wear speedos for training and racing. They would not be able to do so effectively in trunks. My dh and I both swam all the way through college. My dh wore speedos to race in. Qualified for Olympic Trials in a speedo too. That is a talent from God and he was wearing what was needed for his sport.
Sweeping comments likes speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for Christian Culture are exactly what keep me from going all skirts. I don't ever want to be that judgemental.
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StefA
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 6:02am | IP Logged
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saigemom wrote:
I was very interested in this thread since I have been moving towards mostly skirts and dresses. However, I was extremely disappointed with the tone of some of the comments.
" Speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for those who profess to be part of Christian culture."
What an offensive comment. My children are on swim team and both my boys wear speedos for training and racing. They would not be able to do so effectively in trunks. My dh and I both swam all the way through college. My dh wore speedos to race in. Qualified for Olympic Trials in a speedo too. That is a talent from God and he was wearing what was needed for his sport.
Sweeping comments likes speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for Christian Culture are exactly what keep me from going all skirts. I don't ever want to be that judgemental.
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This may sound harsh, but, if the sport required speedos like that and there was not a more modest option, for me, I would have to consider whether it was a good sport to be involved in. I am sorry you felt the comments were judgmental, but as Christians we hold ourselves to higher standards than the rest of the world. We have to ask ourselves "would we dress like this in front of Jesus or the Blessed Mother?" If the answer is no, then it isn't appropriate for Christian culture, IMO.
I'm also not sure what skirt-wearing has to do with speedos and what you feel was a judgmental comment. Skirt-wearing wouldn't automatically make someone judgmental like that.
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~Stef, wife to Tsion, mother to Keegan (2-15-07) and Gianna (10-01-09), stepmother to Jayden (5-3-01)~
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SusanJ
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 6:12am | IP Logged
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Modesty, by definition, is "not drawing undue attention to yourself." Given this definition, I don't see anything wrong with wearing the same thing as the rest of your swim team while at a swim team event. Leaving the meet and wearing your suit to the grocery store afterwards is where such attire would cease to be modest. I don't think clothes can be judged that objectively.
I say this as someone who wears skirts exclusively outside the house and also as someone who has very sadly seen groups of Catholic moms be very hurt by women who wear skirts all the time and have a very obvious judgmental attitude about it by their thoughts and actions. I pray that I am not one of those women but it does happen.
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StefA
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 6:18am | IP Logged
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SusanJ wrote:
Modesty, by definition, is "not drawing undue attention to yourself." Given this definition, I don't see anything wrong with wearing the same thing as the rest of your swim team while at a swim team event. Leaving the meet and wearing your suit to the grocery store afterwards is where such attire would cease to be modest. I don't think clothes can be judged that objectively.
I say this as someone who wears skirts exclusively outside the house and also as someone who has very sadly seen groups of Catholic moms be very hurt by women who wear skirts all the time and have a very obvious judgmental attitude about it by their thoughts and actions. I pray that I am not one of those women but it does happen. |
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But by that definition, skirts in this culture would be immodest, since they could certainly call attention to yourself because it isn't the norm. And since most people dress immodestly nowadays no matter what the setting, that definition would mean that covering up would be immodest. Or if as a woman you choose to cover your head in church, and I do, that that is immodest.
The Catechism has this to say about modesty:
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.
Nothing in there says that modesty is causing undue attention to oneself- that is only one aspect of modesty.
__________________
~Stef, wife to Tsion, mother to Keegan (2-15-07) and Gianna (10-01-09), stepmother to Jayden (5-3-01)~
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 6:39am | IP Logged
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saigemom wrote:
I was very interested in this thread since I have been moving towards mostly skirts and dresses. However, I was extremely disappointed with the tone of some of the comments.
" Speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for those who profess to be part of Christian culture."
What an offensive comment. My children are on swim team and both my boys wear speedos for training and racing. They would not be able to do so effectively in trunks. My dh and I both swam all the way through college. My dh wore speedos to race in. Qualified for Olympic Trials in a speedo too. That is a talent from God and he was wearing what was needed for his sport.
Sweeping comments likes speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for Christian Culture are exactly what keep me from going all skirts. I don't ever want to be that judgemental.
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Stef, I'm sorry you felt judged. I don't think that having a different opinion, even if it is strong, necessarily applies judgment.
This is a tricky topic to discuss, one where there are so many variations of strong opinion where I have to agree to disagree a LOT, even with other ladies who agree with me on the majority of points.
I know I have to approach a topic like this with an open mind, giving others who have made considered opinions the benefit of the doubt, and trusting that the comments are intended in a charitable tone. It is hard when I feel people are either too strict or lax in their particular positions. I also know that I sometimes make statements in the course of such discussions which are broad and could be interpreted as judgmental, when judging individuals is the last thing on my mind and sorrow for a culture that makes certain things the norm are the first.
For instance, I go through phases where I positively hate shirts with writing and pictures on them and find them tacky. Do my children wear them? You betcha. If I made a statement that implied people themselves were tacky for this choice, I would have to include myself in that, lol.
I hope I'm not rambling, and I don't mean to single you out, Stef, be responding to you specifically. But with all the various ideals vs. practice and everything in between without much specific guidance from the Church, there is room for a lot of variation of opinion, even among those few who choose skirts all or most of the time.
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Lindsay
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 6:48am | IP Logged
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On the topic of swimsuits, I resent that in our culture I am EXPECTED to walk around publicly in what, for all intents and purposes, is my underwear. I try to make choices which are somewhere between conventional swimwear and a burquini, but I find it frustrating that our culture DOES judge those who want to cover themselves, even moderately moreso than the norm, as prudish.
So, I see both sides of this issue, truly, on the cover vs. attention thing, but it really makes me angry that swimwear has become so very scant that I must choose one or the other. Mostly, we just avoid swimming in public 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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Pilgrim
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 8:29am | IP Logged
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The definition of modesty that aplies more to our Christian/Catholic teachings of what is appropriate in dress is "Observing the proprieties of sex; chaste;decent." The other definition applies more to our behavior and huimility in attitude as in the definition "Evincing, or arising from, lack of boldness, presumption, display, etc.; unpretentious."
Our definition of modesty is to be founded upon what is chaste and decent, and our culture is soooo far from that and has been for so long, that even us who truly try to live the Faith and understand and dress modestly struggle to understand what that means.
You will find people in all issues, that have personalities that naturally turn people off when they get on their "soapbox", the issue of the Latin Mass comes to mind in my experience.
What we have to do is seek the Truth, the absolute and unchanging Truth, put in plce by God. WE each search for it, but often times we struggle to accept it and live it. Sometimes this struggle can even be the cause of our hurt feeling when others state the Truth, especially if we have not come to that point in our wlak along this journey.
I know before I went to all dresses/skirts, I would sometimes brisstle inside at the bold statements of "all-dress-wearers", but that was because I felt condemned for what I didn't know was wrong, and hadn't yet changed. We always dressed in shorts/tank tops/one piece swimsuits, etc. in Summer, but we didn't know it was immodest, because that was how it had always been. Each one comes along at a pace in their journey towards modesty, and if they are open, truly open to and desiring of the Truth, they will find it, in God's good timing, as he molds them gently.
The main thing is we have to use the proper definition of modesty when seeking what modesty means to our Lord and Our Faith. Chaste dress is what must define modesty for us, we must look at whether our dress could cause unchaste thoughts in another. It doesn't matter if everyone is dressed in the same thing at an, if our dress(or lack thereof) would allow or cause unchaste thoughts, then it is immodest by definition. And I personally have seen even girls taklking unchastely about boys at sporting events when I was younger. Yes, people will be unchaste in thoughts, words and actions in our culture no matter what WE do, but we ARE culpable for how we dress, that is the heart of the matter.
Time and again I have heard very holy priests state that we MUST be counter-cultural in our age. Even our lady said at Fatima that we must not follow thwe fashions of our day. Sometimes being counter-cultural and living for Heaven means giving up things we would like to do, i.e. going to the fair, swimming at the beach, etc. We teach our children when it seems like we are missing out on a pleasure of this world, that when we are before God, hoping above all hope that we will be deemed worthy of heaven, will it matter to us then if we missed out on a earthly pleasure? Sacrifices made to avoid occassions of sin(as our Faith teaches we must) are often small in the light of eternity.
I appreciate that we can all discuss these things together here, and taht everyone is peaceful, and respectful. God Bless us all as we seek the Truth.
And as Linsay said I do not mean to be judging anyone, I just may have a different take on a subject. We all are on the same path, at differing levels, and most of us certainly cannot judge because we have at one point wore the same stuff, and had the same opinions
Please forgive and typos, I don't have time to proof read, have children awaiting me.  .God bless and guide you!
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saigemom
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 8:40am | IP Logged
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For those of you that stuck to the topic of skirts, I appreciate your posts.
At that, I will no longer be participating in this thread as I feel it has left its purpose and is quite legalistic.
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Trinity
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 8:46am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
On the topic of swimsuits, I resent that in our culture I am EXPECTED to walk around publicly in what, for all intents and purposes, is my underwear. I try to make choices which are somewhere between conventional swimwear and a burquini, but I find it frustrating that our culture DOES judge those who want to cover themselves, even moderately moreso than the norm, as prudish.
So, I see both sides of this issue, truly, on the cover vs. attention thing, but it really makes me angry that swimwear has become so very scant that I must choose one or the other. Mostly, we just avoid swimming in public |
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I agree completely.
I didn't mind wearing a regular swimsuit during my teen years, but in my 20s I now want to feel a bit more covered. I have not felt comfortable when at the beach with so much skin showing. In recent years I have worn a swimsuit but then kept a shirt and capris over it. But even then I would just get my feet wet.  I don't mind if it is just our family in the backyard pool and will wear a regular one piece then.
I think I finally found a swimsuit I will like and feel good even wearing to the beach. http://www.modestswimwear4u.com/ I'm still waiting for it to arrive in the mail, but once I try it on I'm sure I will love it. I really like that it will cover both my elbows and knees.
Our children wear swimsuits with the rash guard style top which is a bit more modest and has more sun protection too. : )
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: July 03 2010 at 9:19am | IP Logged
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saigemom wrote:
For those of you that stuck to the topic of skirts, I appreciate your posts.
At that, I will no longer be participating in this thread as I feel it has left its purpose and is quite legalistic.
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Saigemom, most of this thread was written back in April. At that time many people were sharing their views without trying to condemn others. It can certainly be difficult to read opposing viewpoints. But that's all it is.. a sharing of viewpoints.
It's fine imo that people don't want to wear typical swimwear (or any swimwear)
It's also fine that our family has chosen to allow racing swimwear for our children. Honestly, in some ways I've found them to be more modest rather than less so. Jammers stay UP on my little boys whereas I see too many boys in trunk style suits that may be loose fitting but tend toward sliding downward. (and before we started swim team the same was true of my boys and it drove me nuts trying to get those to stay up.. no drawstring would fix the problem). Same with my girls.. the racing suits stay up and down where they belong rather than shifting around or seperating in the middle or whatever.
And we all add coverings when not actively swimming.. no lounging around preening.
This can be a difficult topic for this very reason. But it's so nice when we can all give each other the benefit of the doubt, allow for variation in opinion and share that which is helpful to others.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: dresses only?
