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heatonsmom
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| Posted: April 12 2010 at 6:43am | IP Logged
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Just wanted to thank you for this thread! I have been considering switching to skirts only after a slow climb to modesty... I feel this is my little by little transformation. The difficulty I've had with it is the potential for becoming legalistic... which I can be prone to doing. For me, I think as long as the focus is internal as a reminder & act of my faith it's a good idea. If it becomes a something we use to set ourselves above others or a hinderance to our gifts than we have to be willing to set it aside. Not that this has much baring upon you all's conversation but I really appreciate being able to sort that out for myself ;) BTW - mine will be a slow transition as funding allows..
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Barbara C.
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One thing I should note is that notions of modesty are very cultural. In some cultures, bare breasts do not violate modesty rules. The male Speedo has long been the norm at the pool in Europe, at least from what I've observed in television shows, movies, and magazines. So, in some things modesty is relative.
I remember Wendy Shalit commenting in "Return to Modesty" that the fact that women constantly are adjusting shirts and short skirts is their subconscious telling them that they are dressed immodestly according to their own internal barometer.
Many people follow the same rules for Mass that the Vatican requires of visitors. At the same time, I believe there was a church document that went around during one of these threads that advocated "situational dressing" and did not discourage people from participating in athletic or other events that might require dress that was less strict or modest than what would be expected at church (within reason of course). I believe swimming was the exact example given.
It's like the original poster mentioned happening within her whole family...sometimes when you obsess too much on what's modest or situation appropriate it leads to pridefulness and constantly judging others.
To me jeans (with no rips or stains) are dress clothes at Mass. I don't allow the kids to wear sweats or shorts to Mass, and I usually don't allow bare shoulders. We can't afford to keep with fancy clothes and especially nicer shoes to go with them, especially with constantly growing feet. Personally, my body has fluctuated so much in the past seven years with every pregnancy that I'm having a hard enough keeping a stack of everyday clothes that fit well. And many weeks I feel good if we can put money in the collection plate.
Yeah, I'm not too keen on seeing flip-flops, pajama pants, or a variety of other clothing items at Mass. But I figure I'd rather see people there in less than ideal clothing than not see them there at all.
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guitarnan
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Barbara, I completely understand your post, particularly because I have lived in Europe (Italy and Ireland) for a total of six years. Cultural norms are very different from country to country. (And it's not just Western norms, of course - we all know we would need to cover shoulders and knees - if not more - were we to visit Muslim countries.)
I am guessing that every one of us has stood in some version of your shoes over the years - either the growing kids shoes or the pre-post-currently-pregnant body shoes or the how-do-we-give-when-we-have-to-pay-bills shoes or all of the above pairs of shoes. And, regardless of which shoes we're standing in, we are all walking toward the same goal - Heaven - for us, we devoutly hope, but even more importantly, Heaven for our beloved children.
And, it seems to me, that's where everyone on this thread can find common ground. We all strive for Heaven and we ardently hope that we can give our dear children the foundation for their own hope of Heaven. There is no greater gift we can give to them than the desire to attain eternal life.
For some of us, external attire helps, because it provides a reminder or a focal point - I'm looking toward Heaven and setting an example for my children, and skirts (or veils or whatever) help me to do this.
For others, external attire is utilitarian. We wear clothes for the work/leisure activities of the day and we don't think too much about them if they help us get things done.
Having been a mom who's had to explain Speedo swimsuits for men to her children (not to mention the interesting aspects of European TV - normal in Europe, mildy shocking in the USA), I can now calmly say, "That's how they do it here, so it's different, not wrong," and feel okay with that concept.
Do I let my children wear skimpy swimsuits or watch inappropriate TV? Of course not. But parents in Italy don't do that either. They dress their children appropriately for their country (small children wear swimsuit bottoms only; young girls gradually switch to two- or one-piece swimsuits; everyone covers shoulders and knees for Mass). They don't let their children watch TV shows that could be harmful. It works for them. I can only say what works for my family - I certainly am not in a position to tell my Italian friends that their attire is immodest, because I already know that it is not, by their standards.
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BrendaPeter
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Barbara, your comments on CULTURE are so true. I've had to really embrace our cultural "norms" in regard to dress as a cross. This especially hits me on Sunday mornings when I'm running around, putting up the girls' hair & getting their tights on them. At those moments, I've been heard to say to my dh more than once "Now, I understand why the religious life is a HIGHER calling!"  Oh, to wear a habit... Sigh...
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CrunchyMom
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| Barbara, your comments on CULTURE are so true. I've had to really embrace our cultural "norms" in regard to dress as a cross. This especially hits me on Sunday mornings when I'm running around, putting up the girls' hair & getting their tights on them. At those moments, I've been heard to say to my dh more than once "Now, I understand why the religious life is a HIGHER calling!" Oh, to wear a habit... Sigh... |
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So many of the outward signs of inner things have value *because* they require sacrifice. If it didn't take more effort to write a thank you note, it would not have meaning.
We try not to eat meat on Fridays. We actually like a lot of vegetarian meals very much, even simple ones, but part of the sacrifice is having to plan and think about what we are making and perhaps making something new instead of going with the easier leftover meat dish option.
I view dress in a similar way as things like making the sign of the cross and genuflecting. Outward sacrifices become habit. Sometimes we need to refocus so that they aren't *merely* habit and *only* outward, but overall, good habits are good things which give us the freedom to focus on other good things that haven't yet become habitual.
I must admit, though, it is somewhat of a relief at times living in a culture whose standards are lower than my own in many respects. When I fail to reach my ideals, it is generally only me who is left to give myself grief about it 
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CatholicMommy
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I must admit, though, it is somewhat of a relief at times living in a culture whose standards are lower than my own in many respects. When I fail to reach my ideals, it is generally only me who is left to give myself grief about it |
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My words exactly! When I go out to the mailbox with a mid-calf skirt instead of my usual ankle-lengths for being out of the house, I am the only one griping at myself for not getting the laundry done!
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 12:46pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| To me jeans (with no rips or stains) are dress clothes at Mass. I don't allow the kids to wear sweats or shorts to Mass, and I usually don't allow bare shoulders. We can't afford to keep with fancy clothes and especially nicer shoes to go with them, especially with constantly growing feet. Personally, my body has fluctuated so much in the past seven years with every pregnancy that I'm having a hard enough keeping a stack of everyday clothes that fit well. And many weeks I feel good if we can put money in the collection plate. |
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Oh yes, keeping up with all the growing feet and other body parts can be tricky can't it.
And certainly, the level of "dressing up" is greatly dependant on what you have available. And what other things are going on. Last year we did go to Mass in shorts (or capris or jeans) and tee-shirts (matching ones for our lacrosse team) because we literally left the field and went straight to Mass. Not our norm or my preference. But then getting to Mass is the higest priority.
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guitarnan
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Yes, my dd has attended in poodle socks, after Irish dance events - and with stage makeup from the same because there was no place to scrub it off.
For those of you with daughters of the tall pre-teen variety, do you have resources for comfortable skirts for this age group? My dd is not a fan of skirts because she says they aren't comfortable to wear (compared to knit pants or shorts). I love my summer skirts and would like to find some comfy ones for dd to try.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
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Nancy I got some for myself.. but they might go small enough depending on the size you need.. at Bedford Fair. The over styles wouldn't be teen like.. but the skirts I got are just soft knit skirts that drape very nicely.
Let me go find that link.
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
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here we go
A-line knit long skirt
These have the soft waist of knitted shorts or pants.. the elastic is attached to the skirt and then the top is folded over.. hard to describe.. but the waist band is smooth.. it doesn't look like the ones on shorts or sweats They're lightweight without being too lightweight.. I can wear mine for winter or summer and we have some extremes of both.. and the style is so neutral that whatever tops or shoes you put with it will make the style.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:16pm | IP Logged
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Those look great! Do you know where they're made? (It says "imported" on the website...)
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:19pm | IP Logged
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oh  they are made in China.
I try and be careful of that for the children's toys and such.. especially the younger ones that put things in their mouths more. But I'm not always careful with my own things. (I had to go and check the tag on one)
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guitarnan
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No, that's okay...not everyone worries about MIC things the way my dh does, and even he admits that sometimes you just have to buy things made there because there's no other option available.
Thanks for checking, though!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:24pm | IP Logged
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well, maybe knowing that style is out there.. you can find another place that carries something simliar.
is landsend made in china? they might have something similiar.
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guitarnan
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It depends on the item. I bought a bunch of Lands End t-shirts on sale last fall (oh, how I love them!) and none are made in China. Most of their sweaters and jeans are, though, so I have to check on a case-by-case basis.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 13 2010 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
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Nancy your PM box is full.
I happened to think of another store that has such pretty skirts..
and at least this one at Coldwater Creek outlet is made in the USA of imported material (wasn't sure if that was far enough from MIC)
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Barbara C. wrote:
| One thing I should note is that notions of modesty are very cultural. In some cultures, bare breasts do not violate modesty rules. The male Speedo has long been the norm at the pool in Europe, at least from what I've observed in television shows, movies, and magazines. So, in some things modesty is relative. |
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Barbara, I've been thinking about this for a while, and while your statement is true (modesty is cultural) I think it cannot be true that all forms of cultural modesty can be reconciled with Christianity. Christian culture is OUR culture and bare breasts and teeny Speedo swim shorts are not appropriate for those who profess to be part of Christian culture. In those societies still being evangelized, there may be years (even hundreds of years!) of transition, but every missionary story I've heard brings clothing to the naked along with the Gospel.
Not that I thought you were advocating for baring our breasts in public.
But we have to remember that "conform not to this world" is part of our faith so we should not relax our standards of modesty just because our region's culture and time finds it acceptable.
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ALmom
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We began with very strict rules - enforced. We swam in some rather interesting looking things. It is kind of like how I got upteen thousand novenas, a ton of statues and tried to cram every devotion into our family life. God knew my heart - no matter how extreme we may have started out or how weak our understanding was of the devotions. At the same time, some of this was a reaction against the extreme neglect of these things and perhaps this is what we needed to do to get back on track. I know there are many who chose to embrace the sacrifice of dresses only long term, not from an extreme point of view but in light of an example in the midst of total neglect for modesty. I respect this and do not imply that this is extreme. I also know that this is not what we were called to do. Some of this was harming our children and we needed to review the heart of the matter and prayerfully consider what we needed to do. We had some battles in teen years and kept to things we really could not compromise - but when your children are hitting 18 and older, you also learn to accept that their prudential judgements differ and are not necessarily incorrect. (We grapple with trying to understand and grow and communicate).
I am continuing to grow regularly. I continue to grapple with the issues related to a lot of things. How much is that we are growing in understanding and are moderating to where we should be and how much is that we are being wimpy and caving in to whatever is around us? All of us are prone to be tainted by the environment in which we live. All of us are tempted to extremes at times. I can only say that we continue to prayerfully discern where we should be. I am not saying this to ask for an extended debate,nor to be convinced one way or another by those on this board. I ponder and pray, discuss and discern trying always to submit and evaluate my own motives.
My olders, as they approached the teen years, taught me some things about modesty -
It includes respect for yourself, so it also includes, clean, neat, appropriate, no holes, no stains, not screaming out of style .... I am much more comfortable in skirts (totally unrelated to any holy motives) but am challenged by neat, clean, etc. because we are hard on clothes, shoes, etc. and don't have limitless funds. Plus I am not particularly skilled in knowing color, style, etc.
Decisions related to exactly what is and is not worn ultimately take in the overriding principal and involve a great deal of prayer and prudence. Those aspects that are prudential, need to be made by the person affected. In this case, as my children got older, we really did have to let go some and let them make some of their own decisions and "mistakes." We shared a lot of materials and some of it arguing that everything had to be elbow length sleeves, etc. One of my dd actually went to the source - looked up what St. Thomas had to say and drew her own conclusions. There are some lines we simply cannot cross - other areas, we try to prayerfully consider the degree to which we need to intervene, comment, dictate, etc. Often, I have learned from my children. Sometimes I wonder if we have gotten wimpy. We continue to pray, seek guidance and trust that Our Lady will help us discern properly.
One thing I find interesting - I was allowed to wear just about anything I wanted growing up - no one made a comment. I picked whatever fit out of the box (utilitarian) out of deference to my parents financial struggles (my dad was unemployed for a number of my high school years). I also rebelled against the peer pressure - so I went to the extreme of making fun of every style, etc. and dressed how I wanted and ... (I generally tried to be modest but had no guidance and could only rely on that inner discomfort. Sometimes my decisions were good, sometimes not - but they were never extreme in immodesty. I gradually grew more and more uncomfortable with not being really covered. I'm just now trying to learn how to be more stylish and less stand outish. I have seen some of my children's friends who were not given any strict rules but were taught principles - as newly married folks, they are embracing skirts only, veiling, etc. Those who were required to do so, are experimenting with no sleeves (though they won't go with spagghetic strings and out of deference and respect for parents they do jacket up for Mass, etc.)and lots of blue jeans even for Mass when not at home.
I used to be a no pants before the Blessed Sacrament and that was our rule. My children all know I still feel that way for me and am uncomfortable with it for them. They wouldn't show up at an important business or social function dressed casually when it is formal and they are in the prescence of the King of Kings. However, if I enforced it, there would be many times that the children would not stop for a visit because they are in blue jeans or .... I'd rather they make the visits and I trust God to guide their hearts. I may not be 100% on target myself. I have different challenges. We continue to try and remain open to discerning God's intentionsions for us. I also don't want to be legalistic. I had one child who actually went to the extreme of measuring for a while - much stricter than even we were. I think some of the experimening on her part is very good for her. We keep praying, trying to do the right thing, trying to be couragous, praying, etc.
Also in terms of shopping for a teen - it is much easier to be relatively modest in jeans and still in style. I do not sew, we have a number of children and to find dresses that blend without being immodest is near impossible. If you sew or have time to sew it is a bit more possible - but still.
When we were so out of style (but very, very covered), we were asked where we ordered our dresses, they needed some costuming. We were also challenged at places in terms of whether or not we were actually in swimming suits. I think this was very, very hurtful to my teens and has made it harder on them. I have to be sensitive to the whole picture of modesty and not just one little part. We struggle with every decision. I try to be flexible and respectful without compromising principle. If the church has given definitive rules, we follow them. When there are principles, we base our decisions on those principles - but when nothing is said officially about how to apply the principle now, in this day and time, a great deal of prudential judgement must take place and we must allow some leeway to our older teens in figuring this out for themselves with our guidance and given our reasons for what we, personally prefer. We certainly think that Vatican rules for attire in the Vatican is a safe bet for how to dress for Mass and we have told our children as such. I have allowed an older teen to wear pants to daily Mass as a decision after guidance not to make a big deal out of it. However, I have also been challenged to provide a better example in terms of style and such for myself. I am looking - so far I have not found anything that respects my sense of modesty, is affordable and fits. Until I do, I go with what I have. I hope that people are not quick to judge whatever foibles our family has.
What I see is that even if my older children's choices are not what I would have chosen, they are trying to be modest. I am learning that many of my choices cover well but are frumpy and draw attention in a different sort of way. We both have growing and learning to do.
We are works in progress. We are striving - not to be wimpy and give in to societies decaying standards and not to just justify the easy way out because it is better than what is out there, but at the same time to look at the heart and to be open and flexible, trying to look at the true meaning (in its totality) of modesty and implementing it prudentially, generously and even if it requires some sacrifice on our part but without losing sight of the heart through scrupulous legalism.
I know what others are saying about the relative aspects in different cultures and places. I grew up in an island environment and in the remote islands around us, women went topless. Missionaries actually tried to get them to cover up by handing out t-shirts (this long before the decay of standards). The natives weren't quite sure what to do with these - so they cut 2 holes in them. When we traveled to sing on these islands, we were forewarned about certain things - one was to keep our legs covered, the other was to not wear pants. (I don't know what the guys were told but I'm sure they were forewarned about the women). I would in no way imply these women as being immodest, though I'm sure as tourism opened up more, they may have been made to become aware of the impact of their dress on western tourists and moderated it. We are fallen creatures and we have to moderate our dress in light of our fallen nature. The more s* a society gets, the more conscious we probably have to get of things we wear. Charity should be at the heart of whatever you do.
Janet
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knowloveserve
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I read this topic with interest thank you all. I've grappled with the issue for a few years now... waxing and waning on my dedication to wearing skirts only. (I do great in summer, not so great in winter.)
Ultimately I decided to cast off my guilt about it being a dogmatic matter. It's not. It's a lifestyle choice reflective of the values to which we are called.
One reason I like to wear skirts that people don't often think about is that it is evangelizing to a marginal group of people. Skirts don't offend anyone. Pants offend some people. Some Jehovah Witnesses, some LDS, and many fundamentalist Christians are skirts only people. When they see me in a skirt, I get an instant amount of credibility that would not otherwise be had.
Anyway, I wear skirts mostly because I feel more feminine in a skirt and think it helps me in my vocation to ACT more graceful.
BUT, I don't feel badly if I don a pair of jeans when we go hiking or somesuch. It's a lifestyle choice. Not a binding matter of faith and morals. (That said, I do try to make sure my rear is covered in jeans, either with a long tunic sweater or short dress.)
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dakotamidnight
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Where we live there are a number of Fundamentalist LDS and Mennonite, so dresses are not uncommon. I do dress my daughter in dresses 99% of the time, the exception being if it is very cold.
That being said, while I truly want to go dresses only, I've not had much luck finding quality modest dresses in my size. I'm a plus size, and it seems all those I can find are from Woman Within which tend to be too low in the neck and rather thin on the fabric and sewing. I bought a few last summer, wore them a few times a week, and they are already wearing out. I'm not super hard on clothing either.
Any ideas for another source?
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: dresses only?
