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mathmama
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MicheleQ wrote:
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Thanks  PMing you!!
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JodieLyn
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in addition to jackets.. a vest, a cardigan, a poncho can all give you a nicer look for going out. Even a scarf (winter or just a dressy scarf) can give a bit of a dressiness to an outfit.
In winter, I love wearing my black knit mid-calf skirt, black boots, black turtleneck.. but topping it with the bright red plaid poncho I have.. I feel so elegant with a bit of a dramatic flair 
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LLMom
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Here is the reason I asked the question. I have been wearing skirts only for 9 years (along with my girls) I was fine with it for a long time, but the last few years it has been bothering me more. I became fairly strict about it (as in there were no exceptions for girls playing sports, biking, etc) and for the past few years I have noticed feelings of superiority and a scrupulous tendency developing in some of our family. I DO NOT want us to be judgemental of others and of course I don't want them to worry to death if their skirts aren't long enough, showing too much skin, etc. And honestly, wearing skirts all of the time, draws more attention to us. We have relaxed our rules a bit as in the girls have been allowed to play soccer, wear pants for horse riding and biking, but for our daily wear, we are still skirts/dresses only. So I am looking at those aspects instead of just finding the clothes, fitting, etc. Any thoughts?
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CrunchyMom
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Well, I think that the feelings of superiority and scrupulosity are something you would probably have to deal with simply by dressing differently regardless of whether it is skirts.
My boys have definite "church" clothes and "play" clothes, and even at a young age, they will make a comment like "some people were wearing play clothes at church." Or, if we notice a very immodest jogger while driving down the road, there are comments.
While wearing skirts might be a factor, I think it is sometimes easy to think if you could just change something you wouldn't have to deal with x anymore. Yk, like if you didn't wear skirts exclusively and you said "if I just made my girls wear skirts all the time we wouldn't have to deal with x" it probably wouldn't be easy either.
We are sinners, and pride and scrupulosity are as easy to fall into as immodesty and vanity. My gut says that if it wasn't this, it would be something else, and your deciding to wear pants now probably wouldn't be the "fix" you imagine it might be. It is hard to try to do what you feel is best without growing prideful about your "superior" choices, and that is something we have to learn and teach our children. I don't know that it is always as simple as compromising on our choices.
I'm not trying to make a statement about skirts being "superior" myself, just that we can learn to hold to our more extreme choices without judging those who don't. I guess that this could be a little way of learning to live in the world but not of it.
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LLMom
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 11:58am | IP Logged
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Lindsay,
I have thought of that but honestly I don't ever remember (except as a teen) thinking about clothing as much as I do now. I just use to put clothes on and do my thing. I didn't think whether it was good,bad, etc. Now it is so much more complicated. It is quite a pain to worry about hem lengths, necklines, sleeves, etc. I guess maybe I use to think the way I acted were more important to holiness as opposed to the outside. That is my concern; I don't want too much focus on the outside. The inside must be modest and humble and not just the outside. It almost smacks of legalism if we are so concerned about appearances instead of the heart/spirit.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 12:45pm | IP Logged
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LLMom wrote:
It almost smacks of legalism if we are so concerned about appearances instead of the heart/spirit.
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It IS legalism if this is the case!
I thought about it more when I first switched over, but now I don't think about it so much because my clothes all pretty much fit the parameters.
I found that changing the outside made me change the inside. This must be generally true when you see how much clothing choices make a difference in team spirit or military unity, etc... People used to dress up to go to college classes and now they dress down, and how we dress does affect the way we act.
So, I don't think about the outside as much anymore, and I don't pay as much attention to what others wear as I did when I first was made aware of things I personally wanted to change.
If we are thinking more about the outside than the inside, it IS a problem. I'm sure that means working to cultivate an inner sense of modesty and humility. I'm still not convinced that means switching to pants. It looks like you've already relaxed some which may be good for you, and certainly, if you feel God is calling you to wear pants, do it. But it could just be God calling you to cultivate inner modesty. And like many in the pro-pants crowd ( ) insist, you can practice this sort of modesty if you are wearing pants OR skirts.
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JodieLyn
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Maybe a change of focus would help more than a change of clothes?
Why do we dress modestly? is it only for ourselves? No, it's also for other people.. to help everyone around us keep their thoughts from sin. Of course we're not to blame if they don't.. but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help.
So maybe if your focus was more on other people you wouldn't feel so caught up in the legalism of how to dress modestly.
My girls play boys' lacrosse (we only have the one lacrosse team, no girls' lacrosse). The whole family is involved in it. And I just had the discussion with one of my girls about when we play with the boys we wear loose tops and long shorts.. even if in other venues we have less strict rules. Why? for the others.. the boys that have to look at them and pay attention to where and how they're moving as part of the game.
And yes we do situational modesty. What's modest while swimming for swim team isn't what we allow for walking down the street which isn't what's allowed for going to Church etc.
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Bridget
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We struggled with some of that when we first began wearing dresses/skirts. I began making a conscious effort to compliment others, point out their good points and just be encouraging in general. That way our focus is on what is good, true and beautiful in others and finding ways to uplift them. Believe me, it's a work in progress, but the kids and I keep trying to make that our habitual way of relating to others.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| It is quite a pain to worry about hem lengths, necklines, sleeves, etc. |
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Another thought.. necklines and sleeves will still be there whether you wear skirts or pants.. and instead of hemlines with pants, you'll be looking at different areas of fit.. is it to tight, is your shirt long enough or the top of the pants high enough that you meant in the middle.. even with raised arms.. what sort of decorations are on them etc etc.
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Pilgrim
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This has been a discussion my husband I have had lately. A thought that I'd like opionions on : What makes modesty situational. If it's not okay to wear a swimsuit or shorts in public or even Church, why is it okay to wear them anywhere? The reason for modesty, as someone stated above, is for others. If we should dress modestly for others in ANY situation shouldn't we then dress modestly in ALL situations? It really gets to my husband how ladies/girls will dress all modest and nice for churhc, and then dress totally different elsewhere. Not that he would want them to dress immodestly at Mass, it is certainly appreciated when others dress modestly for Mass. The thing is why give a different importance to Mass, because we are to carry through to our everyday what we believe as Catholics, and if we feel we should dress more modestly for Church, and we certainly wouldn't wear shorts or a swimsuit to Mass, WHY would we wear them anywhere else? I used to think that there was times or situation where we could dress differently, i.e. swimming, sports, etc. but through soul searching with my husband, I think differently on it. I really feel one should be modest in all circumstances, why make exceptions, because the difference in dress would still not be modest even if done for a "reason".
There are two areas where I can see a *slight* difference: medical and nursing babies. I still cover to nurse, even in our home as the boys get older. But, witht the twins I had to be all the way open, and was just grateful the little guy was only a little over 1 yr. And for medical prodeures one has to sometimes be "bared" to the medical staff, but even then one can ask for more covering.
My intent is not to criticize those who think differently than I, but to seek others reasons for things and opinions because through discussion we gain wisdom. I grew up in shorts, tank tops, swim suits, etc. Never dressed in tight stuff, or bikinis of course, but  am ashamed at the level we thought was modest. It seems we are SO far from true modesty and veiling of the figure God gave us, that it's hard to see how we truly *ought* to dress. Kind of like in the Chronicles of Narnia when Aslan tells Jill that when she gets where she's going her vision and memory will be clouded, that she will have trouble remembering what He had told her. And like the Bible says we see things as through a looking glass dimly (paraphrase here!). I think we are so far in our society from modesty, and so used to how immodestly the world dresses, that since we dress "better" than the norm we feel we are dressing modestly.
How we dress IS very important for the sake of others, even how guys dress is important for ladies sakes. Some ladies can be visually tempted, I am one of them. Yes others are responsible for whether they are giving into temptation, and they must be accountable for their own actions. But, on our part it is truly Christian charity to think of others when we choose what we wear. Yes it can be hard to have to care about modesty, I know this all too well, sometimes it gets old having to worry wbout it when shopping, but I truly believe God will reward us for caring about it and doing hard things for the sake of all.
This thread has been inspiring in revisiting why we do what we do in our dress, and it is so wonderful to see you all genuinely seeking God and His will in what you wear. Reading this has made me so grateful for my husband's part in this, and how he appreciates how I dress. He would actually throw a fit if I started wearing pants again, which is fine with me. I have learned that one can truly do anything in skirts; riding bike, climbing things, hiking, hauling wood, claening, laying cement, walking through deep snow, etc. No it's not always easy, but it can be done, and I *love* wearing dresses/skirts and seeing our daughters in them.
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CrunchyMom
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Pilgrim, I get a bit muddled about situational modesty myself.
I would say, though, that modesty aside, I think it is okay to make a distinction between types of clothing. I wouldn't wear clothing, modest or not, that I associate with hard work to mass. So, the skirt I'm wearing faded with paint on it, modest thought it might be, I would not wear it to mass.
So, I think that if one considers their skirts and blouses to be their "best" clothes and their shorts and t-shirts to be their "play/work" clothes, it makes sense to differentiate between them for mass. It isn't necessarily a distinction of modesty but rather of propriety.
I do think that if one is mindful and respectful of others when dressing, it makes sense to be more guarded according to a given situation where they might be more sensitive. For instance, if someone had lower standards for modesty but were visiting other who had higher standards, it would still be respectful to dress more modestly in order to show respect for those with different beliefs. I think that could apply at mass. I'm thinking of pictures of a non-Catholic First Lady wearing a head covering at a Catholic mass. It isn't hypocritical or inconsistent, it is respectful.
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JodieLyn
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For me it has a lot to do with what is expected and how much leeway the other has in "walking away".
If you're going to stand and watch swimming racing.. you're going to see boys and girls in racing swim suits. But you don't have to be there. AND the boys and girls aren't sitting there preening and trying to catch the eye.. they're there to race and they wear suitable clothing for doing so. (and I think I mentioned elsewhere that when mine aren't about to race or in a race they wear something over the suit, most kids around here do).
With my girls playing boys' lacrosse.. it's important to me that because they're out there playing on a team with boys and against other boys.. that the girls shouldn't make the boys have to choose between playing the game properly and averting their eyes. (girls sports clothing is often shorter shorts than we'd do anyway but I go rather on the longer, looser side in this situation)
Now I haven't specfically said what our normal choices are comprized of. I don't really want to get into feeling like I must "defend" our choices. Just picking two situations that we allow less coverage and require more coverage than the norm because of the situation.
Church of course falls into the requiring more coverage (though those are very close to our everyday guidelines.. more a level of formality than more or less modesty) because you don't want anyone to feel like they have to choose to avoid Mass in order to avoid sin.
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LeeAnn
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Pilgrim, I appreciated your post. The other thing we could ask ourselves is: Is participating in sports and wearing the specialized athletic clothing really necessary? If participating in these things requires us to compromise our ideals of modesty that much, why do we do it? This is maybe too far off the original posted question, but worth thinking about. And I haven't made up my mind firmly as to what the answer to it is either, but I think it would be interesting to look at the question.
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JodieLyn
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That's a good question LeeAnn. And I think it will be different for different families.
Because the particular children may benefit more or less from sports than others do.
And as we know from past discussions, families have different thoughts and feelings on what is and is not modest.
For instance, when you live in town with limited opportunities for hard work that can so benefit many boys, sports is one answer to something that requires the same sort of hard work though it has less "finished product".
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LML22
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Since we have been wearing dresses only for so long and I have older children, we have experienced the sports/swimming questions. Originally we are all gung ho about NO sports of swimming in public pools. However, we have had problems with this stance and that is why we have loosened up on our girls playing sports. As my children got older, they felt very different from their friends and excluded. This is important especially as they become teens. It feels awkward to them to be the only one playing ball in a dress or wearing something so starkly different from everyone else to swim in.
Also, I use to think everyone needed to dress as we did and now I see the problem in that because that implies that we are somehow holier than others. Some of the most holy people I know wear modest pants.
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Pilgrim
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LeeAnn wrote:
| Is participating in sports and wearing the specialized athletic clothing really necessary? If participating in these things requires us to compromise our ideals of modesty that much, why do we do it? This is maybe too far off the original posted question, but worth thinking about. And I haven't made up my mind firmly as to what the answer to it is either, but I think it would be interesting to look at the question. |
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This is a large part of what we've been discussing. If doing something will require us to compromise our beliefs/standards, then why do it? I don't mean to criticize or bring up anyones differences of choices here, just food for thought, and I really appreciate a well stated alternetive to ideas we may have.
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Helen
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LLMom wrote:
| Here is the reason I asked the question. I have been wearing skirts only for 9 years (along with my girls) I was fine with it for a long time, but the last few years it has been bothering me more. I became fairly strict about it (as in there were no exceptions for girls playing sports, biking, etc) and for the past few years I have noticed feelings of superiority and a scrupulous tendency developing in some of our family…Any thoughts? |
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Lisa, today as I thought about your second post explaining the original question of this thread, I thought it might be helpful to look at this question and compare it to prayer. I’m pretty confident that everyone who posts here agrees that modesty should be practiced as I believe everyone would also agree that we need to pray everyday. The way in which these two goals are reached varies (validly) from person to person.
I remembered some words of St. Josemaria Escriva. I’m enjoying his book of homilies immensely. I feel as though he is with me, speaking to me directly and personally as I read Friends with God.
In one of his homilies on prayer he says
wrote:
| Please don’t forget that the important ting does not lie in doing many things; limit yourself, generously, to those you can fulfill each day, whether or not you happen to feel like doing them. These pious practices will lead you, almost without your realizing it, to contemplative prayer. Your soul will pour forth more acts of love, aspirations, acts of thanksgiving, acts of atonement, spiritual communions. |
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Homily “Getting to Know God” from
Friends of God published by Scepter Press
St. Josemaria is has excellent advice about overcoming the dryness of routine in prayer. He says to constantly try to imbue your prayer routine with love. This is the way to overcome as he says, “the danger of routine—the real sepulcher of piety.”
I find this interesting because I associate a strong routine and work ethic with the Opus Dei. (I mean this in a good way.) St. Josemaria reminds us to not rest on our prayer routine but to continually make it new.
When I ask myself about prayer…I say I can change this prayer to another version. I can pray at different hours. These are ways of adding new life.
Lisa, it might help you with your skirt question, to ask similar questions regarding your routine in dress? Perhaps this would open the door to what you need in your life. I think you are asking an important question and I hope that we can come up with some ideas for you.
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SusanJ
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I was thinking about the definition of modesty last night.
1. freedom from conceit or vanity
2. propriety in speech, action, or dress
Dh also offered that modesty is when you do not draw undue attention to yourself.
I think these definitions can be a really useful guideline when considering how you might have "situational modesty" in your family. Going out for a jog wearing a long skirt would cause a lot of people to stare (at least in my neighborhood) whereas I don't think anyone would give me a second look if I wore sensible running clothes and joined the jogging throng around my park in the mornings.
If I were to veil at my parish I would get a lot of stares which is kind of the opposite of what a veil is (in part) supposed to do. (I am thinking about hatting but that's the other thread ).
This idea also works with trying to dress in a figure and age-flattering way that is stylish. The author of It's So You has a beautiful introduction about how clothing should serve to draw people's attention to your eyes--to the real you. She suggests that if you get compliments such as, "What a great dress!" then you haven't achieved good styles for yourself. People should say (if anything), "You look great!" I think there is a lot of truth to this. A woman at a crowded beach wearing a well-fitting, sensible bathing suit in a good color and style for her figure (I'll leave it to you all to determine just what that would look like) is just not going to get a lot of looks--I don't think.
The question of propriety is good too and I think calls us sometimes to rise above the culture. We always dress in skirts/dresses/ties for Mass. We are by far the best-dressed people there. But I don't feel the need to dress down so that we don't stick out in this case.
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BrendaPeter
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I made the switch to skirts about 7 years ago and, yes, it has been a process. The primary motivating factor for me at the time was that I wanted my dd to wear dresses and realized I couldn't say "do as I say, not as I do." I have a very strong personality and can easily overpower my more mild husband. Wearing dresses REALLY helped me to feel more feminine & submissive and my husband really appreciated the change . I love always being "dressed up" when someone comes to the door & when I have to quickly run somewhere. I do EVERYTHING in a skirt as I would be entirely too self-conscience about my backside if I wore pants .
Before anyone makes a wardrobe shift, I'd like to recommend a few things to think about. As you all know, it's so challenging with matching skirts & tops, especially when you pick up skirts at places like Goodwill, so it's good to plan in advance:
1. What colors do you look good in or are your favorites? Try to stick with about 4 basic colors. This is very important because it will affect your accessories, i.e. purses & shoes. It's best to decide if you like warm or cool shades so that you can go with black or tan/brown shoes. I have clothes in both warm & cool shades so I have black & brown shoes which is less simple than I'd like things to be.
If I had it to do over again I would go with jewel tones - teal, turquoise, purple & pink with black accessories & silver jewelry. Also try not to pick odd colors. I love sage green but it's kind of a seasonal color so it's hard to find. Having a list of colors is so helpful when you go shopping so that you can eliminate a bunch of stuff right off the top. Of course considering only modest clothes limits things tremendously these days  .
2. What styles do you like?
For skirts, I prefer them to be fitted in the waist & flair at the bottom, gored or peasant. I'm not a fan of slits. Rayon is my favorite skirt fabric and I like my skirts to be long. I've picked up quite a few floral skirts up from Goodwill for $4.00 as these skirts are not easy to find in the stores.
For tops, like Helen, I prefer t-shirts as they wash & wear well & are cool in the summer vs. polyester tops. I bought several long-sleeved t-shirts at JCP last year & cut them to 3/4 lengths (& hemmed them) because I also find them to be very attractive. I also like cardigans to dress them up. I have a couple of very feminine jackets (peplum waist) that were inexpensive at Burlington coat factory that I wear to Mass on Sundays. They were not as fitted as I like so I took them in at the waist. I'm able to sew but I find it easier to tailor already made garments. Those jackets with a t-shirt underneath and a necklace to dress it up works well.
3. Jewelry
I like faux pearls mixed with metallic chain. They go with everything, are classic & really dress up those t-shirts. I have about 6 necklaces, 2 bracelets & a couple of earrings that I wear over & over.
4. Shoes
This is a biggie!
I've invested in boots - black & brown for the winter. Totally worth it. They are dressy & comfortable. I also have black & taupe pumps. Best to invest in leather so they are comfortable & last a long time (JC Penney is very affordable). I have black everyday shoes, black therashoe flip-flops for summer & black & taupe dressy sandals for summer. That's it.
5. Limit your shopping to a couple of stores that you've had success with in the past. I try to stick with JC Penney (catalog), Sears, Target & Burlington Coat Factory or you'll end of running around wasting time. That's why it is so helpful to have a specific item/color in mind.
6. So great to see some of you mention dressing up for Sunday Mass. It's wonderful to see large families putting on their Sunday best. I was able to get a sports coat for my son today at Goodwill for $10. It is do-able. I've read examination of conscience suggestions before that ask if one dresses appropriately for Mass.
Of course, all wardrobe changes must pass hubby's muster . I have some wonderful friends who own 1 pair of shoes (Birkenstocks) & their hubby is tickled. My husband has a professional job and wants our family to present a positive imagine. He likes dressing up and wants to see his family dressed up particularly for Mass. He appreciates when I wear heels, jewelry, color my hair, etc.
Please keep in mind that my "baby" is 5 so I've had some time to work on my wardrobe. For you moms with young babies, don't be too hard on yourselves! It takes TIME & prayer, particularly to Our Blessed Mother.
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
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I did that with shoes.. at least for winter.. because I buy much more expensive shoes then.. went with all black shoes.
Summer.. well if I can get shoes that are under $20 and last a few years.. I can manage several colors without feeling overwhelmed. Of course most of them are worn without socks which also cuts down on what to wear. That probably bothered me more than the shoes. When I went to all black winter shoes.. then all my warm winter socks.. knee high, smart wool etc are black.. works great and I don't have to have the right pair of socks clean to go with a particular shoe/outfit.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: dresses only?
