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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
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msclavel wrote:
cathhomeschool wrote:
Our policy was created because of a condemnation made by the Church and our inability as moderators and moms to moderate conversations involving Waldorf elements. No one has claimed something is more right or more wrong, and to classify the boundaries we place on this board as "sweeping magisterial" is, IMO an attempt to elicit an emotional response in readers. Our decisions apply to our board alone. Since the moderators here bear the responsibility of moderating *here* and since this is a Catholic board, it is proper for us to place boundaries where we feel them necessary.
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Serendipity is Catholic.
Once again, let me reiterate and respectfully ask once more that this not be deleted. I am simply attempting to clarify the misleading and inaccurate statements that I continue to read. The moderators have chosen to publicly place Serendipity in the category of what they have decided is a "condemned" educational style, Waldorf. They have stated that this condemned style is contrary to the Church. This is their personal opinion. Anthroposophy is clearly condemned. NOTHING at Serendipity is Anthroposophic. It is misleading and uncharitable to allow the reputations and work of the contributors at Serendipity to be characterized in this way. If you are going to link to Serendipity, in fact to a specific post, to quote our words, then please be honest and do not use a cached google page. Here is direct link direct link Janette quoted from. I am shocked that the moderators will not allow me the courtesy of a public response. |
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Our policy was created because of a condemnation made by the Church and our inability as moderators and moms to moderate conversations involving Waldorf elements. Because we are moms and not theologians, we are not qualified to determine what in a particular curriculum is or isn't influenced too much by Waldorf. At this time Serendipity falls into the category of topics that are outside of the purview of the board because it has identified itself with Waldorf. This is the case in numerous places over a period of time, not just the one instance which I linked. Yesterday I linked that page in response to Cindy Mac's question. However, a search yesterday produced many more instances that I did not link because I did not see the need nor did I think it my responsibility to point to every instance. And I do not see what about using a cached page is dishonest? They are the words on that site whether the page is cached or not.
We deleted your previous public responses because they were not respectfully phrased. I am sorry that you find that shocking. Our actions are consistent with our policy of trying to maintain an atmosphere of respect even while we agree to disagree about specific topics.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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I can see that some are quite upset about the policy on not discussing Waldorf or curriculums associated with Waldorf. I can also see that others are simply confused.
So in an effort to look at this challenge from a different angle, hopefully one that is less emotionally laden, we can look at the board policy on politics.
Our No Politics policy lets us all understand that it's beyond the purview of this board and our time, energy, and skills as moderators. It simply is and there's no reason to bring that strife here. There are many other places to find information and be involved in discussions of that nature.
We are doing the same with Waldorf. This is beyond our skills as moderators. The complexity of Waldorf's relationship to Anthroposophy as related to the Church teaching is beyond the moderators' understanding. No moderator feels qualified to moderate any discussion on these topics. It also brings a huge amount of strife to this board. The amount of work we must do as moderators in regards to this subject is greatly out of proportion to the number of posts or people who wish to discuss it. There are other places to find information and be involved in discussions on this topic.
There is no difference here except that we've cited the Church condemnation of Anthroposophy and Steiner, and hence Waldorf. NOT comdemning others but to show that to navigate those waters the Church expects us to be well educated. And to share why we, as moderators, don't feel qualified to handle these discussions.
The moderators have had no intention of stating or implying publicly or privately that what we're doing is a condemnation of particular people or the methods they choose.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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administrator
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:34pm | IP Logged
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Ladies-
The moderators have indeed been working very hard to put in place policies and procedures for the benefit of everyone who visits this forum.
As regards the recent Serendipity discussions, the moderators have gently but repeatedly stated their position, in which there is no condemnation of Serendipity or its authors. The moderators have kindly asked that further clarification, if necessary, be requested via private message. Rather than accept this offer, one member chose to 'spam' the board with her personal grievances.
As host and administrator of this forum, I will not tolerate character attacks by or against any member or moderator, and I will not tolerate a blatant, brute-force, attack against the board. Such antics will result in immediate account suspension.
-Administrator (Tim)
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Fuzzy
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As one who needs guidance and likes to have help with teachings and documents, I am so grateful that the moderators work very hard to stay in line with the Church teachings. I love that I can come here and know that if a question is asked, there will be a direct quote and an answer to point me in the direction that I need to be in to see what the Church teaches. Thank you for all your hard work! I am offering prayers for you all today! 
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 Fuzzy
Mom to DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, and DS 4, and DD 1!
Fuzzy Memories
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folklaur
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:34pm | IP Logged
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cathhomeschool wrote:
We deleted your previous public responses because they were not respectfully phrased. I am sorry that you find that shocking. Our actions are consistent with our policy of trying to maintain an atmosphere of respect even while we agree to disagree about specific topics. |
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But...there are a LOT of posts being deleted.
Cindy's was not disrespectful at all, and it is gone, too.
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:44pm | IP Logged
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Cindy's posts were in the category of spam because the same post was posted in many forums all at once. And yes, it was disrespectful because it quoted in full the text of msclavel's previous deleted (disrespectful) post.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify, Laura.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Martha
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:45pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| Because we are moms and not theologians, we are not qualified to determine what in a particular curriculum is or isn't influenced too much by Waldorf. |
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This seems ridiculous to me. One wonders how the board managed for so many years previous to this decision or how any mother here makes any decision about any materials in their home. What with not being theologians, how do they ever manage to determine if something is too influenced by angleican, protestant, or secular views. And the church has at various points in history condemned every one of those founders. Shall we dig up something againt Luther or King Henry, because if these things are founded on those folks (and they are) and those folks are condemned, then the same logic should apply.
That aside, I have actually spoken to a theologian. Low and behold he disagreed with your view of those documents. And if you haven't read the word "condemned" then you shouldn't be using that word.
I thought the moderators were here to encourage respectful (which even heated it nearly always has been) dialog and keep trolls off the board.
I didn't know they were here just to censor dialog.
I have no problem with a few people kindly telling of their personal worries about something. I considered it a friendly heads-up, same as I give to someone about how anti-catholic BJU stuff is, and I appreciate it.
But I can talk about and discuss and be friendly to them, even if they decide to use BJU.
One of the great things about this board used to be how frank we could be about things like this. HOw we coudl ask a question and get honest opinion from other mothers in the trenches. I don't think any of us expect the other mothers to actually make our decisions for us, so I'm not sure why you feel you have to have the ability to determine anything for any certain curriculum.
I do suppose my blunt and rather too honest ways are percieved as disrespectful, but I think there's a lot of disrespect in general going on from the moderators side as well here.
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Martha
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SeaStar
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 3:47pm | IP Logged
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Fuzzy wrote:
| As one who needs guidance and likes to have help with teachings and documents, I am so grateful that the moderators work very hard to stay in line with the Church teachings. I love that I can come here and know that if a question is asked, there will be a direct quote and an answer to point me in the direction that I need to be in to see what the Church teaches. Thank you for all your hard work! I am offering prayers for you all today! |
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Thank you, Fuzzy.
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Natalia
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 4:00pm | IP Logged
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How sad to see good Catholic women hurting each other! 
I do not intend to be disrespectful or hurtful but I don't understand why you have chosen to act they way you have. I understand not wanting to moderate or even allow discussions on Waldorf. I can handle that! What I can't handle and can't understand is why you won't allow posts related to Serendipity.I think such a hard stance is unnecessary and harsh. I truly don't believe that any of you are trying to harm anybody particularly but I can't help but think of this as turning your backs on a friend (Elizabeth in this case) and putting some of the frequent contributors to this forum (Colleen and Jennifer Mack. come to mind) in a difficult position of maybe having to choose between the forum and Serendipity. I really can't back you up (not that you need my support) on the stance you have taken regarding Serendipity.
I am praying that healing can take place,
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Natalia
http://pannuestrodecadadia.blogspot.com
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 4:21pm | IP Logged
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Natalia, we could not find a logical policy that would forbid discussion of Waldorf and Waldorf influenced materials but would allow for a single curriculum, no matter how beautiful it might be, which self-identifies with Waldorf.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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LisaR
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:08pm | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
I appreciate very much what the moderators have done and in fact I think it is a great act of charity and respect! They have clearly stated that certain issues are outside their purview and rather than having conversation blow up again (as we know it so easily can) they have chosen to disallow certain things. Such a decision makes sense and is both charitable and respectful.
I too have "no stake one way or the other in the debate" but do in fact care very much about all of the people involved and continue to keep everyone in my prayers. |
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Ditto. I'm not on much during Lent but wanted to say thank you for all that you do. You all have been in my prayers.
This is such a wonderful ministry, and one that I do not take for granted.
love,
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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melanie
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:21pm | IP Logged
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Well, ok, *my* post was not disrespectful at all. I haven't read most of the others in question I guess. But mine was deleted, and I was told that was because it was in the wrong forum, which it was...I was replying to a post that was posted in that forum. In the past, posts in the wrong forum were moved, not deleted. Now my post is gone, and I have not the energy or time to type it out or post it again...which I can't help but feel was the intended result. I don't use Serendipity. Just some parts of the Alphabet Path. I don't know the people that wrote it personally, nor have I even been a part of these boards for very long. But this whole change sure feels wrongly done to me. I mean no disrespect to those that work to keep these boards going, and I guess this has the feel of long-brewing issues and I have the feeling I don't know most of what went into this drama. But I don't like the fact that people's posts are being deleted and that they aren't getting a chance to express what they think and feel. And I don't agree, *at all*, that Serendipty is anti-Catholic. The very thought that these wonderful people that wrote such a lovely (and free!) curriculum are being banned from discussing it is just really painful. Anyway. I guess that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't think I'm going to stay on these boards though. Elizabeth's blog and the other blogs of the mom's that use Serendipity are what brought me here to begin with.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Natalia
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:35pm | IP Logged
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cathhomeschool wrote:
| which self-identifies with Waldorf. |
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I don't think acknowledging that they have been influenced by Waldorf equals "self-identifying" with Waldorf. I don't think they are any more Waldorf that they are Charlotte Mason.(BTW,I did a Google search for Waldorf curriculum, Waldorf inspired curriculum and Catholic Waldorf Curriculum and Serendipity never showed up). I wish there was another way of handling this (sigh...)
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
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This is being blown way out of proportion.
A decision was made-- basically that we don't discuss Steiner/Waldorf/Waldorf influenced on this board.Moderators don't want to deal with it.
Fine.
Discuss it elsewhere.
Don't agree?
Also fine.
Can't we agree to disagree and leave it at that? Or is it so very important to you to discuss Waldorf here that it is better to insult, spam, harass, and otherwise be disrespectful just so your opinion can be heard?
Really?
Is this where you want to make your stand?
Is this so very important?
Good grief.
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Natalia
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:42pm | IP Logged
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I don't feel that I have insulted, spammed, harassed or been disrespectful. And for me at least, the issue is not Waldorf at all. It is the banning of anything Serendipity that I object to.
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Natalia
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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Natalia wrote:
| I don't feel that I have insulted, spammed, harassed or been disrespectful. And for me at least, the issue is not Waldorf at all. It is the banning of anything Serendipity that I object to. |
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That wasn't directed at you, Natalia. you've been very respectful, IMHO.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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msclavel
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 6:02pm | IP Logged
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cathhomeschool wrote:
We deleted your previous public responses because they were not respectfully phrased. I am sorry that you find that shocking. Our actions are consistent with our policy of trying to maintain an atmosphere of respect even while we agree to disagree about specific topics. |
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This is news to me. This is what I was told when my messages were deleted:
Quote:
| Thank you for your concern, Maria, and for your sincere comments. I have moved your post off the Eastern Asia thread because, as you know, we have asked members to PM moderators with their concerns about our policy. |
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Quote:
Can't we agree to disagree and leave it at that? Or is it so very important to you to discuss Waldorf here that it is better to insult, spam, harass, and otherwise be disrespectful just so your opinion can be heard?
Really?
Is this where you want to make your stand? |
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I have done none of these things. I simply want to be sure that the throwing of Serendipity into a category of educational methods "condemned" by the Church does not go unanswered. It is misleading and clear to me that allowing this statement to stand leaves the impression that there "might" be something at Serendipity contrary to the Faith. I am not the only one concerned about this, as others have posted.
I did not start this. The moderators removed a link to Serendipity last night and posted a public message about their conclusions as to why.
My concerns have nothing to do with whether or not Serendipity is discussed here. It has everything to do with guarding my reputation and my friends who contribute there. It has everything to do with not letting fear and guilt enter into the hearts of members here who use all or part of what we have shared who now may be left feeling as if they have done something wrong.
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 6:05pm | IP Logged
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Natalia wrote:
cathhomeschool wrote:
| which self-identifies with Waldorf. |
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I don't think acknowledging that they have been influenced by Waldorf equals "self-identifying" with Waldorf. I don't think they are any more Waldorf that they are Charlotte Mason.(BTW,I did a Google search for Waldorf curriculum, Waldorf inspired curriculum and Catholic Waldorf Curriculum and Serendipity never showed up). I wish there was another way of handling this (sigh...) |
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Natalia, I wish that there were another way too, but we have made our policy based on what the Church has said. I'm not sure if being influenced by Waldorf equals self-identifying with Waldorf. I am not going to get into the details of phrasing. Our policy currently applies to Serendipity because of the statements that they have made on their site and elsewhere regarding Waldorf. It is not something we decided randomly. It is something that they state and we take at face value.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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melanie wrote:
| Well, ok, *my* post was not disrespectful at all. I haven't read most of the others in question I guess. But mine was deleted, and I was told that was because it was in the wrong forum, which it was...I was replying to a post that was posted in that forum. In the past, posts in the wrong forum were moved, not deleted. Now my post is gone, and I have not the energy or time to type it out or post it again...which I can't help but feel was the intended result. |
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I'm sorry that you believe your post was deleted for some ulterior motive, Melanie. I deleted it because my understanding was that you were posting to get a question answered. I answered your question and so didn't think the post was necessary (since it was in the wrong forum). For your reference I am posting the content of your post below:
Quote:
| If this post about Serendipity not being allowed to be discussed on these forums is true, someone please say so directly so that I can move on. I'm not trying to start a war, or join in one, but that's what brought me here too, and since that message seems to have vanished it appears that this is not even open for discussion anyway. To have that curriculum banned from discussion for being anti-Catholic just seems like probably the most preposterous thing in the world to me. And I don't even really use it, we just use some ideas from it. But I'm not interested in being in a group that bans discussion discussion about such a lovely curriculum put together by such wonderful Catholic moms either. Really, I'm a grown up anyway and don't feel like I need someone to tell me what's Catholic or not Catholic enough to bring into my home, but I'm certainly not afraid of some gnomes and modeling beeswax. I was afraid that that was what was meant by the new info posted about the board changes, but I thought, "surely they aren't talking about Serendipity!" I wish the moderators would address this directly since apparently there is some loop that I am not in the know about. If my post magically disappears too, then I guess that will give me my answer. I sure hope I'm wrong and this is all a misunderstanding. |
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Since I am posting your message, I will address your concern that:
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| To have that curriculum banned from discussion for being anti-Catholic just seems like probably the most preposterous thing in the world to me. |
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It is not being banned for being anti-Catholic. Conversations concerning Serendipity are not currently allowed on this board because they self-identify with Waldorf. Our policy further explains our decision as well as gives links to appropriate Church documents. No one is telling *anyone* what they can and cannot bring into their home. We encourage all of our members to discern that for themselves. We have limited discussion here because the moderators are not capable of moderating Waldorf.
I hope this clarifies our position for you.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: March 25 2010 at 6:31pm | IP Logged
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stepping out for a few minutes. i'll post when i get back if no one objects.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Wow (
Topic Closed)
