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Willa
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| I'm not trying to say that mysteries are not worth contemplating or that theology is unworthy to be studied! But is it really necessary to understand these matters fully in order to be holy? I don't think so. |
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I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Father Dubay says that our main goals on earth are to know and to love. So knowledge is worthwhile. But study is not the only way to knowledge of the higher things. Jean-Baptiste Marie Vianney didn't have a good education, yet his sermons are full of wisdom and understanding.
But yet, he DID try to get an education. So taking too lightly one's responsibility to learn, might be a kind of presumption that might lead away from true simplicity.
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Willa
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Willa
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DVH wrote:
| Certain people are prevented by their various psychic complexes and tensions, from giving a plain response to the logos of a situation. Hence, instead of keeping on the straight road that points to the object, they are always compelled to choose bypaths and detours. |
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 I can do this to myself. I think the answer for me has been trying to seek interiority not to dialogue with myself, like Hamlet, but to ask and listen to God. The Church talks about a bad kind of introspection -- always looking within oneself as if you could really see your own insides. It is a good way to get very confused. But there's a good kind of inwardness -- St Teresa again talks about retreating to the tabernacle in her heart, and how hard it is yet how important to try to look at and listen to Jesus.
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MicheleQ
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| I'm not trying to say that mysteries are not worth contemplating or that theology is unworthy to be studied! But is it really necessary to understand these matters fully in order to be holy? I don't think so. |
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No but if you read further DVH does make the point that stupidity is not spiritual simplicity either. In other words while it isn't required for holiness, intellectual deficiency can certainly make us less effective in the world. I think that's important because we don't want to fall into the trap (and I am not saying you are saying this Lindsay --just speaking generally) of thinking that we don't need to study the things of our Faith. To whom much is given much is expected. People in poorer countries with less opportunities will certainly still be able to attain holiness but those of us with greater access and opportunity to know the Faith really do need to avail ourselves of it as to be a more effective witness in the world. A Frank Sheed comment comes to mind here “While it is obvious that an ignorant man can be virtuous, it is equally obvious that ignorance is not a virtue.”
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MicheleQ
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Willa wrote:
I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Father Dubay says that our main goals on earth are to know and to love. So knowledge is worthwhile. But study is not the only way to knowledge of the higher things. Jean-Baptiste Marie Vianney didn't have a good education, yet his sermons are full of wisdom and understanding.
But yet, he DID try to get an education. So taking too lightly one's responsibility to learn, might be a kind of presumption that might lead away from true simplicity. |
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Ah we were posting at the same time! Yes DVH mentions John Vianney too (and brother Juniper) as examples of those who had true simplicity because of their single-hearted devotion to God and not their lack of intelligence.
quoting DVH
Quote:
| Intellectual plainness as such does not facilitate our progress towards that true simplicity, which was quite compatible with the genius of St. Paul or St. Augustine; but neither is it an invincible impediment to such simplicity. |
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I love this because it's tells us that there is hope for everyone. But then it also tells us we who can strive for more understanding should doesn't it?
The key to it all being that single-hearted devotion to God.
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CrunchyMom
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Perhaps this goes back to *one* reason why education was traditionally a bit elitist? Intelligence misapplied due to lack of formation is dangerous, perhaps more dangerous than if someone is less intelligent? (Just a thought, not making a case for it, I think everyone is "worthy" of a good education...).
It reminds me of Theresa of Avila's advice regarding spiritual directors, that they should be either extremely well educated or not well-educated at all.
I can look back at discussions I've had in the past when I thought I knew more about a subject then I actually did and misapplied my own gift at expressing opinion and the little knowledge I had to make a point I know see as false. This temptation seems more prevalent in today's world with a 24 hour news cycle that fools us into thinking we understand an issue of which we've only learned about in blurbs and 90 second news clips.
To tangent further, it makes me think that Charlotte Mason's advice that children should know few things fully or intimately is very wise and fits this description of "simple." Perhaps intimate understanding in a specific area can bestow a sense of focus that helps us avoid the distraction he speaks of?
I can see this quote describing "teen angst" so well! The constant examination of self and dismissal of a wise adults succinct advice as their "just not getting it" and making very simple things very complicated indeed. I guess the trick is growing out of this completely 
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DominaCaeli
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DVH wrote:
Everywhere they come to grips with artificial problems and complications.
<snip>
Everything becomes thus over-complicated: a huge amount of time is wasted on the simplest things and the most unequivocal tasks are denatured into portentous problems. Their false way of being conscious, in the sense of an ever-present reflectiveness, is often responsible for such people's lack of simplicity. |
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 This describes my melancholic side so well. I am actually very good at external forms of "simplicity"--lack of clutter, organized schedule, and whatnot. But my mental clutter (and the verbal clutter that goes along with it as I try to sort things out) are my weak points, and he describes them so well here. I definitely see them getting in the way of detachment from earthly things and a peaceful, trustful spirit in the presence of God.
St. Therese and St. Teresa of Avila were both mentioned here, and I do so admire their abilities at true recollection. Calming my mind, heart, and will is such a difficult task.
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Willa
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| To tangent further, it makes me think that Charlotte Mason's advice that children should know few things fully or intimately is very wise and fits this description of "simple." Perhaps intimate understanding in a specific area can bestow a sense of focus that helps us avoid the distraction he speaks of? |
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"Intimate" is a good word to use here -- so much of simplicity comes from intimacy with God. Even lots of theological knowledge can distract from this -- sometimes I spend a whole day reading about some theological issue and end up realizing I've never once really "connected" with God during that time. It's a distraction instead of drawing me closer. Of course, not that theology is bad, in the least -- it's necessary. But it's not the same thing as praying, for sure! I can make mistakes reasoning about some doctrine but I can't really make a mistake saying the Rosary, except by being voluntarily distracted.
I do think CM's insistence on children coming to know things by close relation, not just by hearing and reciting facts about it, makes for a very good habit to develop in children and adults. If they are used to drawing closer to the reality of things, they probably aren't so likely to be deceived or distracted by all the information out there.
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HeatherS
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This is such a great discussion. I'm enjoying reading the posts.
I find myself detouring that straight road that points to the Object when, like Martha in the Gospel of Luke 10:39-42, I become anxious over many things (distractions if I was really honest w/myself) & choose to refuse to live in the present moment in which I find myself. Then I find I lose my peace & distance myself farther and farther from living my vocation and from those people and opportunities for grace that God has put straight in front of me. Then my "yes" is no longer a yes & my "no" is no longer a no...I feel like I get tangled up in my own intellectual pride & flee Him "...down the labyrinthine ways of my own mind..." (from "The Hound of Heaven" by F. Thompson).
That's when I'm so grateful for the gift of the Sacrament of Confession that helps me to keep digging at that root of self love I struggle with, and see clearly once again. And then over.and over.and over again each time I seek out that Sacrament.
I remember when Fr. John Hardon, God rest his soul, used to say on retreat that too much education could be a dangerous thing. I think that he meant that we could make the possession of knowledge, and our intellect, a god of sorts.
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Willa wrote:
| I do think CM's insistence on children coming to know things by close relation, not just by hearing and reciting facts about it, makes for a very good habit to develop in children and adults. If they are used to drawing closer to the reality of things, they probably aren't so likely to be deceived or distracted by all the information out there. |
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I am also thinking that perhaps "owning" something in its entirety can provide a solid founding for dealing with whatever else comes along.
In education, and understanding of history is important, but most people, after years of studying history, don't have any "sense" of its significance as relating to human nature. And yet, I wonder if fully understand one "piece" of it, say Greek history for example, wouldn't provide more of the point of knowing history than scratching the surface of lots of different areas. In its simplicity, it is actually deeper.
Or perhaps, as regards knowing the saints, it might be better to really understand one very holy person we can relate to moreso than having a vast knowledge that is only acquainted with a vague idea of hundreds of saints of the Church.
This notion of simplicity makes me think of Religious Orders. Not everyone finds a home in the same one, but religious people flourish in narrowing their focus to one "school" of thought, so to speak. They aren't distracted by what their neighbor is doing. (I remember one great part of *Into Great Silence* where they were discussing what another monastery had changed, and the monk responded with "Oh, but they're Trappists" and everyone chuckled a little. It just amused me to see how very "defined" it all was.)
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LeeAnn
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CrunchyMom, with regard to teaching children religion versus theology, you might enjoy this brief article by Msgr. Charles Pope, Critical Keys for Catholic Catechesis In summary, let's get to basics and not confuse people (specifically, children in RE) with tangential issues and fancy packaging.
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MicheleQ wrote:
DVH wrote:
Simplicity contrasts with psychological convolutedness
Hence, instead of keeping on the straight road that points to the object, they are always compelled to choose bypaths and detours. |
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I know a very holy priest who often says "Do what you are doing". Seems simple enough but it's much more challenging to live that than we think. Another image I have (from another holy priest!) is keeping my hand on the plow. Apparently oxen are quite huge & if you took your hand off the plow when you were working the field, you were in big trouble! These are the two meditations I go to when I find myself distracted from my duty.
Another practical thought is to ask oneself often if these distractions lead to union with God. Why I am concerned with what my neighbor's children are doing? Why do I find my eyes glancing towards the magazine covers as I check out at the supermarket? Is what's going on in Hollywood any of my concern? When I stand before God one day, will any of these distractions affect His judgement of me in a POSITIVE way?
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DominaCaeli wrote:
DVH wrote:
Everywhere they come to grips with artificial problems and complications.
<snip>
Everything becomes thus over-complicated: a huge amount of time is wasted on the simplest things and the most unequivocal tasks are denatured into portentous problems. Their false way of being conscious, in the sense of an ever-present reflectiveness, is often responsible for such people's lack of simplicity. |
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This describes my melancholic side so well. I am actually very good at external forms of "simplicity"--lack of clutter, organized schedule, and whatnot. But my mental clutter (and the verbal clutter that goes along with it as I try to sort things out) are my weak points, and he describes them so well here. I definitely see them getting in the way of detachment from earthly things and a peaceful, trustful spirit in the presence of God.
St. Therese and St. Teresa of Avila were both mentioned here, and I do so admire their abilities at true recollection. Calming my mind, heart, and will is such a difficult task. |
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Describes, me, too, very well. I try to not overcomplicate things, but sometimes if it seems too simple and easy, I question the matter at hand! 
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Going back to the beginning discussions about the inward general principle, Seeking God First, Loving Him above all things....
I've been trying to figure out what makes this Simplicity different from others espouses in magazines and books. The difference is the action of the motivation. The other perspectives is looking at the outside, making changes. And it was confusing me because I could see that on a natural level, these aren't wrong to pare down. But I always left with a "Why? What is the purpose? Where is this leading us?" I couldn't find the end in mind.
Because there isn't an end in mind. That's the problem. That's where some of the books lead me to "That's great, but something is missing...."
To operate under the general principle means there's a beginning AND end constantly in mind. And instead of forcing outside changes arbitrarily like the secular examples, the general principle is inward. True interior reflection on this principle, living solely by this principle will make the inward changes first, and the outward changes will fall into place.
It does sound easy when I type it. I know it's not, because it takes some hard interior work. My example is the idea of purging and decluttering is not a bad thing, but without the single motivating principle it can just be an exercise, not a real spiritual detachment.
Another point in comparison in my mind I'm seeing that perhaps the simplicity urges on the secular side is more *minimalistic* and not true *simplicity*. Again, I think the first is an exterior reflection and the second an interior reflection.
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JennGM wrote:
| Another point in comparison in my mind I'm seeing that perhaps the simplicity urges on the secular side is more *minimalistic* and not true *simplicity*. Again, I think the first is an exterior reflection and the second an interior reflection. |
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This point in particular has been in my thoughts for weeks --nay months-- now. There's such a minimalistic trend these days and yet... look at the Church --the mass, the liturgy. Beautiful, rich, full, but not minimalistic. Sparing/sharing yes but not minimalistic.
We attend the EF mass and it is by no means minimalistic. But simplicity, yes there's definitely simplicity, and until I went back and read DVH I couldn't quite put into words why. It's that inward unity, the dominant principle that makes it so . . . simple.
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LeeAnn
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Yes, formally defined, "Minimalism" is not compatible with Christianity; it is a rejection of tradition and an outgrowth of Modernism.
However, simplicity and asceticism and of course poverty of spirit have always been associated with the devout Christian life.
I prefer an "empty house" look in some ways. It's easier to clean, less things to worry about maintaining, gives us more room to move and so on--not that I've achieved this yet, still in the process of getting rid of things we really don't need or use.
If you look at any modern design magazine though the minimalist look is all about owning status symbols and achieving perfection through purchasing the "right" kind of empty look.
My "empty house" look is the same old furniture I've always had...just less of it. :)
Are we ready for the next section of text, Michele?
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Willa
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JennGM wrote:
| Another point in comparison in my mind I'm seeing that perhaps the simplicity urges on the secular side is more *minimalistic* and not true *simplicity*. Again, I think the first is an exterior reflection and the second an interior reflection. |
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I think that might be true. My past efforts to "simplify" always got derailed because I got caught either in some sort of pride trap, or a kind of selfishness, just trying to make my life easier. These seemed like dead-ends, worse than the clutter, so I would quit.
I'm not saying my present attempts to do away with clutter are free of human weakness -- I'm just saying it seems easier now for me to look beyond that to the "real" motive.
I guess post-Vatican II a lot of churches stripped away most of their embellishments and almost tried to look like Protestant chapels. My kids and I discussed once how if something is more stripped down than it really should be other things tend to creep in, things that may not be as good as the original things. It's like the Bible verse where the man chases out a devil and sweeps his house clean and then, finding his house empty, seven devils move in and take residence, in Luke 11.
Quote:
"When an unclean spirit goes out of someone, it roams through arid regions searching for rest but, finding none, it says, 'I shall return to my home from which I came.'
But upon returning, it finds it swept clean and put in order.
Then it goes and brings back seven other spirits more wicked than itself who move in and dwell there, and the last condition of that person is worse than the first." |
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LeeAnn
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Willa wrote:
| I guess post-Vatican II a lot of churches stripped away most of their embellishments and almost tried to look like Protestant chapels. My kids and I discussed once how if something is more stripped down than it really should be other things tend to creep in, things that may not be as good as the original things. |
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That's very true. Both Moira Doorly's "No Place for God" and Michael S. Rose's "Ugly as Sin" address that point. Not far from me, there is a Catholic church that was originally, intentionally (by the architect, although perhaps not by the parishioners) built to resemble a Buddhist-Shinto temple--square with dark colored beams rising to a point with plain white walls and so on. About ten years ago a new priest came and raised funds to renovate the place and now it is beautiful, covered with icons and features a vertical element outdoors (a bell tower) to diminish the horizontal-ness of the original building. Rose argues for "three natural laws" of church architecture: verticality, permanence and iconography. If you have these three elements, it's hard to go wrong. If you omit one or all, then you get modernist junk (horizontal lines, temporary materials or fragile structure, complete lack of proper decoration). You can have even very simple structures that follow all three of the "natural laws"--this is not saying that all church buildings must be Rococo.
Sorry to go so off-topic there, but it's a long-standing interest of mine. :)
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DVH wrote:
| Simplicity contrasts with psychological convolutednessTheir inferiority complex, for instance, makes them feel embarrassed by a complaisance which would rejoice a healthier type of person, or makes them reciprocate it with some objectively incongruous act. |
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I guess I did have a question about this section before we move on. I keep getting hung up on this sentence above and trying to translate it into plain English.
So first, I had to look up "complaisance" since I couldn't for the life of me remember what it meant:
com·plai·sance (k m-pl s ns, -z ns). n. The inclination to comply willingly with the wishes of others; amiability.
So let's try this: "Their feeling of being less than others, for instance, makes them embarrassed by an inclination to comply willingly with the wishes of others which would make another person feel happy, or makes them act towards others in a way that is solidly out of character." [???]
So...their need to make things needlessly complex makes them resistant to agreeing with others and reflexively act in a way that is contrary to their true character or beliefs? Help!
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Willa
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LeeAnn wrote:
| Rose argues for "three natural laws" of church architecture: verticality, permanence and iconography. If you have these three elements, it's hard to go wrong. |
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I know you said it was off-topic but I actually think this really works as a description of true simplicity. Probably because I'm an analogical thinker type.
Verticality -- referring everything to God.
Permanence -- treasures in heaven, not on earth -- keeping in mind our "last end".
Iconography -- tougher one, but Father Dubay in Happy are you Poor talks about how every Christian should look like a Christ to the maximum extent possible -- he talks about "pilgrim witness" and "apostolic credibility" meaning that our lives actually are a kind of icon of what we profess.
I apologize if this sounds strained! 
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No, I thought of that too! I just didn't want to disgruntle others by taking the focus off DVH's text. Maybe it was in one the Michael O'Brien novels where a woman character talks about how the authorities came and smashed all her icons and religious items "but one"--and she says something like, "You can never destroy me, I am a living icon of Christ." Not a stretch at all!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: True Simplicity: Part 1
