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Celeste
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(If you tend to get your feelings hurt, you may want to skip this post. I don't intend to offend, I am not judging, I will not be speaking uncharitably, but I will be strong. You have been warned. Proceed at your own risk.)
Why the attachment to beeswax and beeswax crayons? Where did we first hear about them, why were they encouraged? Why beeswax? Why do the crayons and modeling clay HAVE to be beeswax?
Did any of us hear of beeswax school supplies apart from Waldorf (directly or indirectly)? I sure didn't. Which leads me back to the why.
This is part of why Steiner thought beeswax was important, in his own words:
"If you take a piece of beeswax into your hands, you are actually looking at an intermediary product arising rom a mixture of blood,muscles, and bones, more precisely that which lies between the latter three. Humans undergo such a stage of wax production; the wax does not solidify, but rather remains fluid until it can be transformed into blood, muscle, or bone cells. The beeswax that you can see physically is within you in the form of certain powers and energies.
"When, in olden times, people made candles from beeswax and lit them, there really saw in them a remarkable sacrament: 'This wax, burning there before us, we obtained from the beehive. There it was a solid substance. When the fire melts this wax and it evaporates, then the wax takes on the same condition that it has in our own bodies'. . . . This put them into a special mood of reverence that caused them to regard the bee as a particularly sacred animal, because it prepared something that the human being must continually prepare within."
Way too weird for me.
He also advocated the eating of wax because bees made six-sided cells, and humans need to have "these six-sided spaced within themselves. Human beings need the same things bees do. And since the bee is that creature that can best of all create this force of having a six-sided effect on other things, the bee collects from everything available in nature the very form of nourishment that can carry over in to our bodies this same hexagonally acting force, a force that produces a six-sided effect."
Maybe Steiner put lots of beeswax in his school because of his own beliefs in the spirtual science of bees and the power of beeswax.
There's lots, lots more. Check out Bees by Steiner, a book of his lectures on bees. Or don't, and take the Church's cautions and condemnations seriously.
Lest I be accused of saying bees and beeswax are bad because they are associated with Steiner, I will state categorically that I am not. Go ahead and use them. I am questioning our motivation for selecting that material. Is it because Waldorf education says so?
A year ago I took a beekeeping course. Last week I ordered bees, and yesterday I bought beekeeping equipment. I want to do it organically, letting the bees draw their own comb, raise their own queens, not use toxins against varroa mites and nosema, etc. Low and behold, I just found out, because of this discussion, that Steiner advocated those very things. Am I now an anthroposophist? (No, I'm a personalist.) No. I sure didn't get the ideas from him, even indirectly. And my intent in keeping bees this way is not his intent, from the little tiny bit I have read.
Am I going to read him on bees, because he has some good ideas? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. I do not want any residue of his philosophy in the back of my mind or even in my subconscious when I am working with my bees. I've read too much as it is. I don't need to swim in the sewer to know that it stinks.
Obviously these waters are choppy, this territory is murky, here do dragons dwell, as the old maps say. In the case of New Age, which Steiner is, you cannot be too careful. It's best to let the heroes fight the dragons, not bring them to the hearth.
Celeste
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LeeAnn
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Celeste, that's a really interesting post. Thank you for going to the trouble to type all that. I hadn't heard of why certain materials were favored by Steiner before. I think most people nowadays just like the beeswax and the wooden toys and the natural materials because generally being ecologically-friendly is popular now and some of us also aspire to have simpler, lower-tech lives. Waldorf materials offer a lot of that with the emphasis on handmade, natural elements in the various products.
Personally, I have bought a lot of that kind of stuff in the past, not realizing that Steiner was specifically warned against (or condemned) by the Church. In retrospect, I feel uneasy about financially supporting those businesses that are directly financing antroposophic/Steiner groups. Will I buy Ostheimer figures again? Probably not. There are other similar toys out there that I can buy in good conscience.
I don't have personal experience with the Oak Meadow curriculum. I've only briefly glanced at their website in the past and it wasn't for me. From the sample lesson that Martha posted I wouldn't say that's really Waldorf to begin with...I don't think Steiner ever used Beatrix Potter in his curriculum. On the other hand, I haven't seen the entirety of the OM curriculum and it's unfortunate if they say they are Waldorf-inspired if that sample lesson is representative of their entire program; it seems more nature-inspired than Waldorf-inspired.
I think a lot of what we see being called Waldorf in this country has a lot of natural/eco-friendly/global community stuff tacked on to it. I know there are Waldorf schools--certified schools--that don't even celebrate the traditional Christian-origin holidays--they've incorporated various ethnic or pagan holidays instead or just remain completely nature-oriented celebrating the seasons and solstices and such (which you might call new age/pagan as well possibly depending on how it's presented).
Where this all leaves Serendipity I don't know. It is not for me either and I've never taught it. I looked at it several times but it is not my thing. However, no new ideas and programs should be accepted uncritically; as long as they are discussed charitably, I think it is a worthy topic.
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Eleanor
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| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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I've looked through the Oak Meadow samples, back when the curriculum started to get some attention on here. Rather than point to specific details, I'd just echo what Jodie said:
Quote:
| Why should I doubt that they are what they say they are? |
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Here are some quotations from the introductory pages that are in their sample files:
"We do believe that there are certain principles which are very important for the deeper unfoldment of the child."
"To be an effective teacher, you must persistently seek to unfold and refine your own strengths before you can ever hope to unfold and refine the strengths in your child. Helping Home Teachers in this process is the purpose of Oak Meadow, and the reason why we are unique among home study schools. We are not interested in filling children with facts, but in helping parents and children become free human beings, able to respond deeply and sensitively to the world in which they live."
There are also references to Oak Meadow's educational philosophy being a "distillation" of the founder's Waldorf training. The Waldorf connection here is very clear.
As with many terms used in New Age, the word "freedom" is given an un-Christian meaning in Steiner's thought. It involves "liberating oneself" from external moral norms, so that one is guided only by one's own subjective "moral imagination." It's very clear that Steiner saw his so-called "Philosophy of Freedom" as a sharp contrast to the teachings of Catholicism, which he saw as "obsolete." Similarly, terms such as "unfoldment" and "sensitive" have very specific anthroposophic meanings, which relate to his false views about child development and the purpose of human existence.
Even if families that use Oak Meadow don't themselves believe in these concepts, the fact remains that this curriculum was specifically designed to impart them.
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SeaStar
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Natalia wrote:
For me there is a question that begs to be asked. If Waldorf can't be separated from Steiner, where does that leave Serendipity? What percent of Serendipity is Waldorf inspired, influenced or whatever other term there is?
BTW, I am not trying to stir up trouble or hurt anybodies feelings, I think if we want to be honest and be congruent with the purpose of this forum, this is a question that needs to be dealt with, I think.
Hitting post with trepidation,
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Natalia-
That is a good question.
I am speaking just from my own experience here... last fall I did try the alphabet path with my dc. There were many wonderful things about it.
We did not felt, have main lesson books or use the math gnomes. I used (and still use) Rightstart math, and I made my own painted saints with wooden peg dolls.
Last fall I knew zero about Waldorf and Steiner. I did not felt or use the gnomes because they simply did not appeal to me (plus I know nothing about felting). As I went down the alphabet path, I began to feel a little weird about mixing the fairies with the saints. Yes, I do read my kids fairy tales... but they don't have saints mixed in. I felt like they didn't need to be mixed together. I bought the recommended botany book, Shanleya's Quest, and its mythical creation fable was way out of my comfort level. I did not use it with my dc.
Fast forward to after Christmas when I started to read and learn about Steiner.... I can honestly say I was shocked. His writings sickened me, frightened me even.
I chose not to keep using the alphabet path at that point because so many of Steiner's "favorite things", so to speak, are present in it.
Are the crafting supplies at Serendipity meant to recreate a Waldorf atmosphere in my home? Are they evil? Is Seredendipity "bad"? No, I do not think so.
But *JUST FOR ME*, every time I think about math gnomes I think about how Steiner thought that gnomes are real- even at this very moment they are alive and down in the earth mining ore. And when I see wet on wet watercolor I think of *why* he liked that- because he thought children were newly reincarnated and just getting used to their physical bodies.
I just can't put it all together and use it at my house, you know? Reading about Steiner, knowing the Church has condemned his writings.... that has taken away the comfort level for me.
But, again, that is just *MY* experience. Everyone has her own comfort level and knows what is best for her own family.
I am just glad that all this information is here and available now for people to read and consider. I should have done my own research... I have learned a lesson.
Maybe questions about Serendipity, though. are best answered by the ladies who designed it. I know they had all good things in mind, and they are very generous to share it. I can only speak from my own experiences and feelings.
Like you, Natalia, I am hitting "post" with trepidation.
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Martha
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| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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I have no idea what the deal is with beeswax.
Personally I will use crayola bc the 5-25 cents per 24 ct box back to school sales can't be beat. :)
Quote:
| Am I going to read him on bees, because he has some good ideas? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. I do not want any residue of his philosophy in the back of my mind or even in my subconscious |
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This would be a valid point if you hadn't just posted his stuff here for all to read, thus spreading the residue considerably. The "don't read it, Bc the Church says not to but I did and here is an exact quote for you to read too" misses logic for me. 
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Helen
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Martha wrote:
| The "don't read it, Bc the Church says not to but I did and here is an exact quote for you to read too" misses logic for me. |
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The reason for a condemnation by the Church is to prevent her Faithful from going *into* something which may cause them problems.
Theologians may go into the writings to lead people *away* from the errors.
Edited by H
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Martha
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| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 3:09pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| But *JUST FOR ME*, every time I think about math gnomes I think about how Steiner thought that gnomes are real- even at this very moment they are alive and down in the earth mining ore. And when I see wet on wet watercolor I think of *why* he liked that- because he thought children were newly reincarnated and just getting used to their physical bodies. |
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now that I find sad. (not bad of you, just sad FOR you)
THAT is why I'm not interested in reading about Steiner. It's enough for me to know he was crackers.
I think it's terrible sad that something as simple as art supplies in the hands of little children is turned from a pleasant joy to behold, a gift provided by God to reflect His glory, to something sinister. 
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MicheleQ
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JodieLyn wrote:
| And I don't doubt the good intentions of Catholics who choose to use something I see as questionable. |
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Nor do I. We can never judge someone's intentions and must always assume the best. I certainly do not think anyone has purposely tried to lead anyone else down the wrong path. But we all make mistakes in judgment, I know I sure have over the years and we always have to be open to the possibility that we could be wrong. Lissa's story is a beautiful example of that. None of this is meant to point fingers or condemn anyone. I care very much about everyone involved in this --lest there be any doubt! But the greatest act of charity is to tell someone the truth--that really is the motivation here.
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Angie Mc
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It is my understanding that Serendipity isn't meant to be a curriculum as much as a sharing. It is meant to show people, who asked for help, what Real Learning looks like in their homes.
I imagine that they are having some of the same difficulties that the moderators are having here, figuring out where lines of responsibility are. I think that blogs are a more defined format and better suited for sharing from the premise, "This is what I'm/we're doing. Take what you like and leave the rest" than this board. I think that we all forget sometimes, how new all this technology is. I'm sympathetic with all who try to reach out and serve others online - it can be tough!
Love,
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 3:14pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
Quote:
| But *JUST FOR ME*, every time I think about math gnomes I think about how Steiner thought that gnomes are real- even at this very moment they are alive and down in the earth mining ore. And when I see wet on wet watercolor I think of *why* he liked that- because he thought children were newly reincarnated and just getting used to their physical bodies. |
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now that I find sad. (not bad of you, just sad FOR you)
THAT is why I'm not interested in reading about Steiner. It's enough for me to know he was crackers.
I think it's terrible sad that something as simple as art supplies in the hands of little children is turned from a pleasant joy to behold, a gift provided by God to reflect His glory, to something sinister. |
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Yes, it is very sad. I never liked gnomes before, and I really don't now  . So I am just steering clear of anything now that financially supports the Waldorf movement or has ties to it. My watercolors are coming from Dick Blick 
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Marcia
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I can see one reason why using molding beeswax is good- it's not easy. It requires patience and time...something my children and I can definitely work on. You must hold it in your hands for a LONG TIME until it's soft enough to work with.
Somewhere back in all these posts I saw someone suggest that we need to be careful with scrupulosity. I would agree that this thread might border on that for some. We are all sinners....and this Lent is a good time for us to see it again.
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JennGM
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Marcia wrote:
| Somewhere back in all these posts I saw someone suggest that we need to be careful with scrupulosity. I would agree that this thread might border on that for some. We are all sinners....and this Lent is a good time for us to see it again. |
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Father Hardon defines scrupulous as
Father Hardon wrote:
SCRUPULOUS CONSCIENCE
An erroneous conscience when the mind is unduly swayed by fear and judges that something is wrong that in fact is lawful. |
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The Church has condemned anthroposophy, and then has repeated her cautions in Her New Age document. That has shown that this is a serious matter. It is up to the individual to sort out how this applies to their own homes. It is not scrupulous to decide to avoid it all, because the Church has cautioned as such.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Becky Parker
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I have been reading this thread and it's caused much frustration. I see quotes posted and reposted and I wonder if, possibly, the truth is just being missed. I'm going to find some time to pray the rosary tonight or tomorrow with the specific intention that the truth be loud and clear in the hearts of everyone here. I know I have to do this often when I'm in a state of confusion. Mary never lets me down. It does take humility on my part though!
This discussion has been so informative for me, but I also hear words of those who have been hurt by it. I don't think anyone on this board intends to hurt anyone else. That's why I'm just hoping the Lord will bring peace and his light to what seems like such a lot of confusion.
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CrunchyMom
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I agree with you Jenn, but I think that the question of scrupulosity is that someone who has previously used beeswax innocently and likes it might suddenly start fretting over whether she was sinful in using it.
There are elements of this discussion that might cause someone to fret unnecessarily. I didn't see it as directed towards those who have already made a decision like you stated above.
I just speak personally as one who is prone to fretting about minutia while ignoring the bigger picture. It IS in fact lawful to use beeswax as we've stated; so, while it can be an effective analogy or example as used above, it is also good to keep this temptation in our minds, especially those who are reading some of this for the first time. This goes for some of the other reasons people give. They are good reasons, not to be discounted, but they should not cause someone to fear they are sinning.
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Martha
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I don't think it was Steiner she was refering too. By all means avoid him. I am.
It is verging on scrupulous to avoid beeswax and fairy tales just bc Steiner recommended them, IMHO.
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lapazfarm
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JennGM wrote:
Marcia wrote:
| Somewhere back in all these posts I saw someone suggest that we need to be careful with scrupulosity. I would agree that this thread might border on that for some. We are all sinners....and this Lent is a good time for us to see it again. |
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Father Hardon defines scrupulous as
Father Hardon wrote:
SCRUPULOUS CONSCIENCE
An erroneous conscience when the mind is unduly swayed by fear and judges that something is wrong that in fact is lawful. |
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The Church has condemned anthroposophy, and then has repeated her cautions in Her New Age document. That has shown that this is a serious matter. It is up to the individual to sort out how this applies to their own homes. It is not scrupulous to decide to avoid it all, because the Church has cautioned as such. |
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I agree. And I also think that since this thread has as it's purpose to discuss, explore, and to examine closely the ways in which we can or cannot use Steiner-influenced materials and methods in a Catholic homeschool, it is unfair to suggest scrupulosity when we do so.
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JodieLyn
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One more point on prudence and scrupulosity.
Staying away from something out of prudence, is not the same as scupulosity. Some of us are more tempted by certain errors and sins than others.. it may be highly prudent for one family to avoid everything while another family can be prudent and still embrace many things.
Which is one of the reason for our Prudential Decisions Document
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JennGM
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Martha wrote:
I don't think it was Steiner she was refering too. By all means avoid him. I am.
It is verging on scrupulous to avoid beeswax and fairy tales just bc Steiner recommended them, IMHO. |
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Martha, this was earlier in the thread:
Lissa wrote:
guitarnan wrote:
guitarnan wrote:
The Waldorf approach is actually, from what I have read, pretty specific about why activities are done and ideas are presented at certain ages, and that's where the tie to Steiner's philosophy comes in - the part where he believes the young child's soul is still connected somehow to the spirit world (definitely not in line with Catholic teaching). So, I wouldn't ask my children to paint in one specific color based on age - that looks too much like Steiner for my personal comfort level - but I would (and have) taught them to do watercolor washes and encouraged them to paint with beautiful bright colors.
I think there are so many beautiful and lovely aspects of our rich Catholic heritage that we can share with our children and have the joy of rediscovering for ourselves. |
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Yes, Nancy, exactly. In Waldorf pedagogy every single element and activity is informed by the underlying philosophy. If you aren't using Waldorf books for instruction in how to do these activities with your children, then you are just *doing* the activity.
Of course a Waldorf-inspired homeschool would also be drawing on Waldorf ideas for academic studies, not just arts and crafts. It's a specific curriculum with set subjects being presented at certain ages. I don't see how you could follow the curriculum without using Waldorf publications. I think that's where the big difference would come in for someone trying to move away from Waldorf influences---it would require a rethinking of scope, sequence, and methods. |
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No one is saying that watercolors, beeswax, creativity, gentleness are evil, or even tainted as they are. I use beeswax all the time with Ukrainian eggs (pysanky). These materials all existed before Steiner was  .
It is just trying to understand is this way of using these materials have anthroposophical traces? If I'm calling it Waldorf beeswax, well, why? Why can't I just say I like modelling clay and crayons and watercolors? Putting the tag "Waldorf" on it does suggest there might be some unseen connection, *but intentional on Steiner's part*.
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Martha
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Quote:
| I agree. And I also think that since this thread has as it's purpose to discuss, explore, and to examine closely the ways in which we can or cannot use Steiner-influenced materials and methods in a Catholic homeschool, it is unfair to suggest scrupulosity when we do so. |
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Why? It is not intended to hurt or insult.
The point seems to be to discuss and to share.
One might say my having OM on the shelf to evaluate is too close to crossing over to the dark side for them - ok.
One saying that refusing to use beeswax materials or wet on wet paints is a bit too close to scrupulosity for them - ok. Or I guess not ok?
I have long admired and respected you here. I don't think insult or injury is implied or intended here.
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JSchaaf
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So, who is going to step up and tell Elizabeth, who founded this message board and has poured her life, time and love into it, that her blog and educational methods and materials are leading our children down the wide road to destruction? Yes, I'm being snarky, cynical and uncharitable. But this is what I feel you are telling ME, on a message board that was supposed to be a place where we could discuss all aspects of a living education, even the ones that make others uncomfortable. Like another poster said, Elizabeth's silence on this topic speaks volumes to me.
MaryM wrote:
| During this period of time, topics related to Waldorf methods and materials will be considered outside the expertise or purview of this board and its moderators, and therefore not open for discussion. |
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So the whole subject will be shut down again? How is that helpful to new members or people trying to learn more about the Church and Her teachings? Can I post in Picture Book Discoveries about great books we find at the library that have illustrations that might look "Waldorf"? I feel like I will be unable to share or post anything about our educational adventure because of the fault that might be found in it.
When the board reopens after the spring retreat will what a "Real Catholic" home education is be more clearly defined? Will there be a list of other things we are not to discuss?
I am hurt and upset by this whole discussion, about the way some members have been made to feel and about how I no longer have confidence in what I am doing as a mother and as a Catholic. I won't presume to know Elizabeth's feelings but if I were her I would be devastated to sit and read through this thread.
Jennifer
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
