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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 23 2010 at 11:33am | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| I am grateful I have this opportunity to share. Perhaps it seems scrupulous to others, but it’s what I decided after consulting many, reading, and praying, and discussing with dh. I am not meaning to intimidate others into my way of thinking, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I just wanted share my own path with my spiritual sisters in Christ. |
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Jenn,
I'm grateful you and others shared your experiences with me. I have learned a lot reading along. I find that I can embrace humility when I read along in quiet, and I'm so grateful when other sisters in Christ share how they have read the Church's wisdom and have made changes in their own homes making use of the Church's guidance. I don't feel pressured in any way.
At times, reading here has been painful for me, but in prayer I recognized that pruning is always painful. I allowed that pain because I believe the Holy Spirit can work there and prompt me.
The Mystical Body of Christ is varied - we are a beautiful tapestry of differences woven together by the hand of God as we seek to do His Will. I'm grateful for our differences, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to say that I have learned so much from reading the Church's words and have benefited from the sharing, sometimes very vulnerable and spoken from such a personal place.
Because of the volume of posts this morning, and because we are all home educating moms needing to tend to our duties, and because there is only so much we can take in at one time, I'm going to temporarily close this thread so that thoughts here can settle and we can each take this to prayer before we return to this topic. 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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MaryM
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For the sake of member and moderator time, board harmony, and honest differences of opinion, this thread will remain open until the normal Sunday closure, after which it will be locked for an indefinite period of time. This closure will remain in effect until the time moderators feel more clear and/or there is more direction from the Church and/or her teachers.
During this period of time, topics related to Waldorf methods and materials will be considered outside the expertise or purview of this board and its moderators, and therefore not open for discussion. We will bring this topic for further consideration to our regularly scheduled spring retreat and plan to update our About Us documents accordingly.
This board will continue to work to fulfill its ministry, to be available to do what we do best as a group...design curriculum based on living books and sometimes making use of those ideas which, while seeming to identify with Waldorf, are actually common practices with their roots in other philosophies.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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Angie Mc
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While reading and pondering this topic, I asked myself if there was anything unique I could add to the discussion. I didn't want to present a sub-topic (of which I can see many, many worthy for future pondering) or answer specific questions and concerns (because I'm unqualified) but rather something more about this moment, right now.
My first thought was something I picked up from Peter Kreeft's "Making Sense of Suffering". He said, "We're in the middle of the story." When we're suffering, we often know the beginning and how we got here, but we don't know where it is taking us, where we are going. This topic of Waldorf - and anything remotely connected to it - is one of suffering here at 4Real. Individuals have suffered in different ways and for different reasons for a long time. There is no topic here that comes close to the heat, frustration, and confusion. None.
Discussing this topic feels like… swimming in mud…chasing a tail…riding a wild roller-coaster…walking on eggshells…and worse. Personally, I hate feeling this way and don't blame myself or anyone else for screaming, crying, or turning away. Personally, again, I have humphed "Forget it! I have better things to do! I'm going to eat chocolate! Ugh, it is Lent so no chocolate. It figures!" I'm suffering and I don't even use Waldorf - real, inspired, or looks-a-lot-like it. My decision to not use Waldorf wasn't even thoughtful, processed, or heroic. I don't even have a good story to share. So why am I suffering? I'm suffering because I feel like a misfit. I see so many women working really, really hard to make this topic make sense and it keeps slipping and sliding. I so want to do a good job as a moderator and I feel like a failure at this topic - damned if I do, damned if I don't. It is hard to watch people I care about suffer and worry about hurting others. And that’s just me. I imagine that the potential reasons for suffering seems endless.
As any good friend would want for herself and her friends, I want to wish this thing away...to fix it...to take away the suffering. But that isn't happening...yet. We're in the middle of the story. I feel we're getting closer. When I least expect it...I read a truth...I witness humility... I think “a ha!”…I learn something new...I love someone even more than before...I feel a part of something that will work out. It's hard being in the middle of the story, but I praise God for all who are willing to suffer together in the hopes of increasing holiness.
Kreeft goes on to connect being in the middle of a story to the salvation of all souls and the promise of eternal life. That is a great consolation! I praise the Holy Spirit for guiding us and making straight our path, over time, giving us tools to make misunderstandings more clear and mistakes more right. I trust God and His Divine Providence, knowing He has brought us this far and has allowed us to suffer. In His perfect timing, He will decide the end of this story while we all continue to try and try and try again to say yes to Him. Thank you to all who have contributed your gifts, experiences, smarts, stories, thoughts, concerns, time, charity, information, passion, tenderness, and prayers.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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MicheleQ
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Thank you Mary and all the moderators for the tremendous amount of time and thoughtful consideration that you have given to this thread.
It is a difficult conversation but a very important one too and I am praying mightily that it will all work out to the greater glory of God!
Thank you again!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Natalia
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So, while the thread is open, should we continue the discussion or what? what is the purpose of it being open?
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Natalia
http://pannuestrodecadadia.blogspot.com
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CrunchyMom
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Natalia, my understanding is that it is re-opened so that those who wanted to respond and weren't able to because it was closed are given the opportunity. People have a chance tie up any loose ends and such.
So, yes, you may continue to discuss until the board closure Saturday night.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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lambchopwife
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MicheleQ wrote:
Thank you Mary and all the moderators for the tremendous amount of time and thoughtful consideration that you have given to this thread.
It is a difficult conversation but a very important one too and I am praying mightily that it will all work out to the greater glory of God!
Thank you again! |
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I'll second that Michele! I truly hope that we all can learn something for the better because of these dicusions. I think that Lent is a perfect time to reflect on some of the thoughts that have been so deeply dicussed here. I hate to see such divisions amoung us. I feel it is the evil one who causes division and we must work hard to not let that happen. We are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ and we are all striving for holliness, each on our own path chosen by God Himself. We need to remind ourselves of this and give up our own free will to follow His will for us. In doing that sometimes we must look at our decisions to see if they follow church teachings, if they don't we need to humble ourselves enough to say
"I was wrong and Thy will be done, not mine." We should be asking ourselves everyday about anythng that we bring into our homes and our lives "Will this help my family and I get to Heaven?" I truly hope that we all can follow His will about this dicusion and not our own.
God bless,
Cheryl
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~ Be not afraid to tell Jesus that you love Him; even though it be without feeling, this is the way to oblige Him to help you, and carry you like a little child too feeble to walk.~ St. Therese
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LucyP
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I just wanted to offer an apology to anyone I have offended in this thread - perhaps I wrote with too much of the "zeal of a convert", having discovered that I could not handle balancing anthrosophical teachings and the Catholic faith. I think I caused upset by saying if these books are "poisonous" should I pass the poison on - it was not wisely phrased. And I did not mean that other people are passing posion onto their little ones because I am sure that each and every one of us makes the best decisions for our own individual family needs (personalities,budgets, weaknesses and strengths, energy levels, interests etc etc) - I should have said if it is my perception that these books were "poisonous" to *me*, should I risk passing them on.
I am grateful for this thread for confirming that for me, my husband and our children we are now confident of our way forward, and I will be speaking to our priest about the matter in more depth when I have a chance.
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Martha
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Well for me the result of this thread is ownership of OM K, 1st, 4th. Since I can't get clear recommendations on it here, my dh decided I should judge it for myself.
I have spoken to a priest. I also read Elizabeth's blog because I felt her silence here was deafening. And I have prayed. I have humbled myself to accepting that this is something at least 2 of my children need right now. And the tender heartache of thinking I should have done something like this with at least 2 older dc.
I'm not sure why the thread was reopened.
I'm disappointed and frustrated that my 2 questions could not be discussed here. I'm not sure why feelings have to hurt over it. (Mine were not, but I've been accused of having pachyderm skin.  )
But in the grand plan of my life these days this is fairly simple to offer up this Lenten season.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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CrunchyMom
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Martha, specifically, what two questions do you have that you want answered? Ask them, and people have the opportunity now to answer them. That is why this thread was reopened, imo.
I think that the reason feelings are hurt is because of how close this is to our heart--we are in essence talking about our children. It is very hard to discuss this without it seeming personal because by its nature it is so very personal.
If someone feels there is danger associated with Steiner and his methods, it goes beyond a discussion of what is the most effective way to teach history. You can disagree on that, but the worst that can happen is that your child not like or know history. Not the end of the world if you were wrong. But in the case of this discussion, the implications are more involved, closer to our hearts. It is a topic that those without pachyderm skin (  ) find harder to separate from their emotions. At least, that is what my take is. I can be rather duck-like myself (if not elephant-like.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Natalia
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Just to clear my mind.
Everybody agrees that Steiner's writing or any other writing that is overtly New Age must be avoided.
Everybody agrees that we pay attention to the church and what she says.
Everybody agrees that each mother/parents here want what is best for their kids.
Everybody agrees that nobody here will willingly endangered their dc's souls.
Using beeswax crayons, silks, wet on wet watercolors,etc is not a sin.
The areas of disagreement are:
Did the Church condemned Steiner's writing or just issued a cautioning warning. If so what does this means practically?
Is using Waldorf inspired ideas the same as using Waldorf? are the Waldorf inspired ideas presented in Serendipity or other curricula like OM far enough from Waldorf to be safe for our dc?
Would using these curricula above make our dc comfortable with some other NA symbols and material later in life (because they could identify them with home)?
Did I get this right? am I missing something?
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Natalia
http://pannuestrodecadadia.blogspot.com
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Martha
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Oops. One question I guess. Although the second question would be along the lines of fostering a Catholic environment I suppose.
I currently have OM in hand. I'm writing out what a day/week would look like and I have to admit it is embarrassingly easy to do catholic style. Far and away easier than most Protestant materials have been.
Martha wrote:
1) I'd like to discuss more about whether waldorf neccessarily = Steiner/theosophy. To my mind this is very much like catholic school does not neccessarily equal Catholic education.
2) I really understand that. I have often said I want my dc so imersed in their faith that anything not of their faith feels uncomfortable. I tend to view this as very spiritual. There are many pagan symbols in every catholic life. The church incorporates these things for God's glory. Christmas trees, Easter eggs, and many other things are not of Christian origin. And yes there are Christians who refuse to allow those things in their home. I'm not one of them.
I'm sincerely looking into this and don't mean this as an attack. I'd like to see these questions discussed. |
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Martha
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LisaR
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Martha wrote:
1) I'd like to discuss more about whether waldorf neccessarily = Steiner/theosophy. To my mind this is very much like catholic school does not neccessarily equal Catholic education. |
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***************************************************
the root and intent of the founder is paramount here.
can one take something founded in untruths, lies, or sin, and "transform" it?
with Catholic education, one can easily trace the History back, read the documents, the writings of the Saints, and so on, and see how the intent was for goodness and Truth. Sadly, sinful, human persons throughout have from time to time perhaps allowed or even caused "corruption" to occur.
Still, the foundation and intent of Catholic education was based on truth and goodness and purity.
I was very attracted to and repulsed by Waldorf at the same time- is this possible?. It reminded me so much of my Oregon, Trancendental Meditation and Natural upbringing. However, the more I read and studied, I realized these are not memories and familiarities that I would like to pass on to my children.
Thank you to Lissa and Alice for so eloquently putting into words what I had been yearning to articulate for some time.
I have many lengthy posts in my head but am retreating back to lurkdom for Lent.
Thanks to the mods- you all do a wonderful job and I am so grateful to each one of you!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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Martha wrote:
There are many pagan symbols in every catholic life. The church incorporates these things for God's glory. Christmas trees, Easter eggs, and many other things are not of Christian origin. And yes there are Christians who refuse to allow those things in their home. I'm not one of them.
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I totally get this. However, I thought we were discussing something so much more than a symbol, rather an entire religion and lifestyle.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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MicheleQ
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Martha wrote:
| 1) I'd like to discuss more about whether waldorf necessarily = Steiner/theosophy. To my mind this is very much like catholic school does not necessarily equal Catholic education. |
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Martha, I spoke to a priest about this discussion and he replied to me that Theosopy and New Age philosophies and theologies are "very dangerous things. As for the teaching methods that may be connected to them, but some would say rather distantly, I would use Chesterton's example of rat poison: 99% of rat poison is good, sweet, great food. It's the 1% that will kill you."
He further said, "I always counsel people to stay away from things that have roots contrary to the Church and Christian thinking, even though it may appear far removed or distant. You never should invite even the slightest evil into your home."
I feel this is very good advice.
Martha wrote:
I have often said I want my dc so immersed in their faith that anything not of their faith feels uncomfortable. I tend to view this as very spiritual. There are many pagan symbols in every catholic life. The church incorporates these things for God's glory. Christmas trees, Easter eggs, and many other things are not of Christian origin. And yes there are Christians who refuse to allow those things in their home. I'm not one of them. |
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But has the Church incorporated any current New Age symbolism or has she warned us to stay away? My point being that a Christmas tree is clearly now a transformed symbol. Do we need to fear our children will feel "at home" with paganism because they have been exposed to a Christmas tree? Going back to what Lissa quoted previously from Alice, "Waldorf materials are beautiful and attractive, and I may use them without buying into Steiner’s philosophy, but if I nurture my children in the midst of a pervasive Waldorf atmosphere, is there a chance I may be priming the pump for them to feel comfortable in a New Age environment as adults? Will New Age remind them of home?"
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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CrunchyMom
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Martha wrote:
1) I'd like to discuss more about whether waldorf neccessarily = Steiner/theosophy. To my mind this is very much like catholic school does not neccessarily equal Catholic education.
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Thanks for restating your questions, Martha.
I can't see how to separate Steiner and Waldorf. The educational method happens to have a different name from his founder, but Steiner, the man, invented anthroposophy AND Waldorf. No one would ask if Charlotte Mason's methods have to be associated with Charlotte Mason (or shaped by her worldview) or if Montessori has to do with Montessori. Their names are the "brand." I'm not sure why it makes any more sense to disassociate Waldorf from Steiner?
And, while I have chosen not to send my children to Catholic schools, one reason being that they are not "Catholic" enough for me, if I thought Catholicism itself was evil, I would not put my children in a Catholic school. They aren't THAT unCatholic. Though it may not be a FULLY Catholic education, I don't see a person as vehemently anti-Catholic as, say those who promote Abeka or Bob Jones, using them. So, to summarize, if you thought Catholicism was evil, would you put your child in a school with "Catholic" in the name and description, regardless of whether it was really orthodox Catholic or only nominally so?
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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Martha.. regarding "Steiner = Waldorf"
From the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America
Quote:
Waldorf Education has its roots in the spiritual-scientific research of the Austrian scientist and thinker Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). According to Steiner's philosophy, the human being is a threefold being of spirit, soul, and body whose capacities unfold in three developmental stages on the path to adulthood: early childhood, middle childhood, and adolescence.
In April of 1919, Rudolf Steiner visited the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart, Germany. The German nation, defeated in war, was teetering on the brink of economic, social, and political chaos. Steiner spoke to the workers about the need for social renewal, for a new way of organizing society and its political and cultural life.
Emil Molt, the owner of the factory, asked Steiner if he would undertake to establish and lead a school for the children of the employees of the company. Steiner agreed but set four conditions, each of which went against common practice of the day: 1) that the school be open to all children; 2) that it be coeducational; 3) that it be a unified twelve-year school; 4) that the teachers, those individuals actually in contact with the children, have primary control of the school, with minimum interference from the state or from economic sources. Steiner's conditions were radical for the day, but Molt gladly agreed to them. On September 7, 1919, the independent Waldorf School (Die Freie Waldorfschule) opened its doors.
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I think that this from a Waldorf source.. shows that Waldorf was DEVELOPED by Steiner. His teachings in fact.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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JodieLyn
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Oops, cross-posting with Lindsay. I didn't see that she'd already addressed this before I posted.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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CrunchyMom
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In rereading the Church documents as relating to this subject, this quote leapt out at me,
From On Christian Education
Quote:
| Every method of education founded, wholly or in part, on the denial or forgetfulness of original sin and of grace, and relying on the sole powers of human nature, is unsound. |
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I think this may have been in reference to Rousseau nonsense (like the school Auntie Mame sends her nephew to), but I still think it is relevant to some of the points I see people trying to make above.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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LisaR
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CrunchyMom wrote:
In rereading the Church documents as relating to this subject, this quote leapt out at me,
From On Christian Education
Quote:
| Every method of education founded, wholly or in part, on the denial or forgetfulness of original sin and of grace, and relying on the sole powers of human nature, is unsound. |
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but I still think it is relevant to some of the points I see people trying to make above. |
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I was scrambling to find this very quote! thanks so much.
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
