| Author | |
LucyP
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 05 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 791
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 7:37am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Excellent point Helen.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 7:42am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Helen wrote:
| Since error is not attractive and not based in the natural law, error needs something beautiful to dress it up , sustain it and lead us to be attracted to it. |
|
|
Hmm...sounds like Eve and that apple. 
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:24am | IP Logged
|
|
|
It was not my intention to post during Lent, however having read this thread, I feel I must say something. I know nothing about Waldorf education or philosophy. I feel that in my ignorance, I encouraged some very dear ladies to read a book that was offensive to them, perhaps they feel it was even sinful. I certainly never would want in any way to lead anyone off of th path of Truth and astray from the teachings of the Catholic Church. Please forgive me for the ways I caused worry, distress, and/or doubts to trouble any of you by sponsoring the Simplicity Parenting thread.
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary's daughter
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 13 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:45am | IP Logged
|
|
|
This is regarding a comment made by Jennifer...Do you consider Sibylle Von Olfers and Elsa Beskow to be "Waldorf"? I have always considered them to be just beautiful stories with beautiful artwork.
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lissa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 748
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
There is a very dusty box of books buried in my garage---things I pulled off the shelves in my first round of purging. I didn't feel right about reselling them, and it goes completely against my grain to throw away a book. But later, when I would find the occasional book here or there on a shelf, I did throw those away. Someday I'll clean out my garage and get rid of the rest. I figure it is my penance for having recommended them to others in the past.
Lissa
__________________
Lissa
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Helen
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 03 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2826
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
stellamaris wrote:
| It was not my intention to post during Lent, however having read this thread, I feel I must say something. I know nothing about Waldorf education or philosophy. I feel that in my ignorance, I encouraged some very dear ladies to read a book that was offensive to them... |
|
|
 Caroline you are a dear!! All of us are continually learning and growing. It is very easy to overlook an author's bio. I'm sure we've all done this.
Thank you for sharing your heart.
__________________
Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:58am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary's daughter wrote:
This is regarding a comment made by Jennifer...Do you consider Sibylle Von Olfers and Elsa Beskow to be "Waldorf"? I have always considered them to be just beautiful stories with beautiful artwork.
Stephanie |
|
|
Stephanie, I know they are printed by a Waldorf publisher, Floris Books. I know they are used extensively with Waldorf. I have not been able to ascertain from other sources anything about Elsa Beskow or Sibylle Von Olfers to figure out their background, so I feel a little uneasy of what I don't know. All the fairy books I am not comfortable with. I have enjoyed "Pelle's New Suit", which isn't fairy oriented. But does it look like Waldorf? Will it send conflicting messages to my sons?
As far as pointing out specifically anthroposophic/Steiner/Waldorf, I can't say. This is an area of personal comfort. I'm just not comfortable with them.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Anneof 5
Forum Pro
Joined: June 10 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 9:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I really appreciate this thread and feel that it coming at this time in the liturgical year is quite profound for me. I followed the Waldorf threads from a couple of years ago and ended up aquiring several items with the intention of using them in our homeschool. However, most of them were set aside and my dc were not really that interested in them, including the Beskow books. I found them described as "waldorf inspired" and highly prominent on several websites. My kids did not connect with them and there was something about them that just didn't feel right for me.
As for the Adam and Eve reference from Michelle above...our priest has been preaching on sin lately and basically said that Eve made the mistake of engaging in temptation instead of just turning away from it. I personally feel that sometimes I am guilty of this as well. When I know something is wrong I just need to flee from it and not think too much about it as that is when the evil one can get hold and get his way. So that is what I am doing...fleeing. I will leave it up to my dh to decide how to dispose of the bag and I know it will not be by selling or donating.
Thank you so much for this discussion and opening my eyes!
Anne
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lissa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 748
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 10:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Jenn, re Elsa Beskow books---this is just my opinion and I think my track record on this subject is a caution against putting too much stock in my opinion---I do not consider them anthroposophic texts.
I don't know if Floris Books has direct ties to anthroposophy. They seem to publish many New Agey titles, and many that aren't. There you get into murky territory...most publishers today publish books I wouldn't want in my home, but they are huge corporations with many imprints and DO publish books I treasure.
For me it comes down to judging books (paintings, albums, songs, shows, films, etc) on their individual merits and content. I.E. not the beliefs or behavior of the artist or author, nor even on the entire catalog of the publisher.
But as I have said, I take seriously and literally the Church's caution against anthroposophist or New Age publications, as well as that question of atmosphere. So a great deal of discernment must go into purchasing choices!
Lissa
__________________
Lissa
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LucyP
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 05 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 791
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 10:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
For what it is worth, Sybille Von Olfers became a nun and used her artistic ability to do altar paintings, as well as being sent to be a school nurse.
More info here
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LeeAnn
Forum Pro
Joined: May 25 2007
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 470
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 11:00am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ha, LucyP beat me to it. :) I wanted to point out that most of von Olfers' books were published after she joined the Sisters of St. Elizabeth but of course not everything a religious publishes is worthy of reading (witness Joan Chittister, et al).
As a sometime collector of vintage children's books though I have to say that what often appears "Waldorf" like von Olfers' is not really Waldorf but more representative of the general aesthetic of the time. Most children's picture books of the early 1900s looked somewhat similar to von Olfers'--a very stylized Art Deco-inspired look--I have a Good Housekeeping Baby Care book from 1904 that has illustrations very similar without the nature-themed borders.
Whether von Olfers was influenced by Steiner I can't say. I don't think there's enough known about her to speculate. Her stories are more imaginative nature fantasies rather than pedagogical illustrations.
I think a reasonable compromise for some of these books might be to try and buy them used rather than directly supporting anthroposophical publishers like Floris. (Similar to what Mater Amabilis recommends for the Unicef books.) A more tricky matter would be finding a source for some of the art materials that didn't support Steiner-inspired businesses (if you are so inclined).
__________________
my four children are 17, 15, 11 & 8 - all now attend public school - we read many 4Real recommended books at home
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 11:31am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I had heard about von Olfers being a nun, but I couldn't find anything except small snippets, not even her order, so this was a helpful link, Lucy, thanks! I like the Art Nouveau and borders style of her drawings a lot. Just was more hesitant on the fantasy stuff.
I still don't feel comfortable with the fairy stuff of Elsa Beskow. And her Christmas book was so....well, secular.
I have thought that perhaps the books are used to promote Waldorf ideas, but not necesarily Waldorf... I know there are all sorts of ways books or writings can be used to promote an idea, even though it wasn't originally written that way. And that can be a good or a bad thing. Just the comfort area for us, we don't do fairies, mainly because I have boys, and it just doesn't feel natural to me.
Lissa, I hear you about the publishers. I do try to evaluate by an author, but I do look at the publishers, too. What is the agenda, what are they promoting?
I try to be careful about knowing the publishers of books especially Catholic ones. I think Aquinas and More has a list of publishers and a kind of evaluation guide on them. There are some that are consistently solid, others that waver on a few titles, some that are a mixed bag, so you have to sift, and others that rarely have a solid book. And other secular publishers could get a similar criteria. Floris looks very New Age, but maybe not all the titles.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Waverley
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 12 2006
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 476
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 12:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lissa wrote:
A comment from my best friend Alice especially spoke to my heart:
"This makes me recognize that there may be a potential problem in letting children become accustomed to an environment noticeably inspired by or reflective of anthroposophy. Waldorf materials are beautiful and attractive, and I may use them without buying into Steiner’s philosophy, but if I nurture my children in the midst of a pervasive Waldorf atmosphere, is there a chance I may be priming the pump for them to feel comfortable in a New Age environment as adults? Will New Age remind them of home?"
That insight gave me cause to rethink the wisdom of having Waldorf materials, no matter how lovely, in my home. From that point on, I no longer felt at ease having materials published by anthroposophist companies in my home. I do not want my children to have any sense of warm attachment or connection to materials that contain New Age elements. |
|
|
Thank you! I think you have summed up and put into words for me why I have concerns with the specific "Waldorf" products. I love them, they are beautiful, the colors and feel are comforting. They are also very identifiable. Your quote above underlines how my use of these materials, which in and of themselves are not harmful, can lead to setting up an atmosphere or feeling that can lead my children away from their Faith.
I understand others may not feel that way. I appreciate you being honest about how you resolved the matter for your family. It has made a difference for me.
__________________
Waverley
wife to Dh for 19 years, dd (16), dd (11), dd (8), ds (6), dd (4), dd (9-13-1996)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
St. Ann
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 20 2006
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2137
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 12:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
In German many oop books have been rediscovered and re-published by the Anthroposophic publishers.
such as:
The Holly and the Ivy by Rumer Godden
Good King Wenceslas by Jean Richardson
Elsa Beskow books(Her inspiration is not Steiner!)
Sybille v. Olfers
The Secret Garden by Burnett
Grimm Fairytales
The last 2 are probably not oop otherwise, but the problem I see is why are the bigger "catholic" publishers ignoring these books that for which there seems to be a demand?
In Germany, waldorf materials are everywhere, even in Catholic kindergartens. It is almost totally integrated in the Green movement here. I have never been a part of any differentiated discussion regarding the Church's position on Anthroposophy, although it is easy to see the bizaar-ness of much of their literature.
I am very thankful for this thread.
It has given me much to consider.
__________________
Stephanie
Wife and mother to Hannah '96, Maria '99, Dorothea '01, Helena '03
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 2:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
LeeAnn wrote:
| As a sometime collector of vintage children's books though I have to say that what often appears "Waldorf" like von Olfers' is not really Waldorf but more representative of the general aesthetic of the time. Most children's picture books of the early 1900s looked somewhat similar to von Olfers'--a very stylized Art Deco-inspired look--I have a Good Housekeeping Baby Care book from 1904 that has illustrations very similar without the nature-themed borders. |
|
|
This is a good point, and it shows that we need to look beyond the surface when we're investigating such issues. Things aren't always as they first appear. We have a few Catholic books that were published in the 1970's, and have garish modern covers, but the contents are actually quite orthodox. On the other hand, I once came across a coffee table book that was packed with some of the most beautiful reproductions of Christian art I've ever seen... only to notice that the text of the book was promoting some kind of gnostic Grail heresy. 
Here's something I wrote in an old thread on Waldorf; just thought I'd share it again, in case anyone finds it of interest.
Quote:
Regarding your concerns about the books, of course this would be a matter for personal discernment, with the assistance of a faithful Catholic priest if at all possible. For what it's worth, though, I did throw out a couple of boxes worth of New Age-y books when I returned to the Church. (I removed the covers and some of the pages first, to minimize the chance of a passerby taking them from the recycling bin.) It was hard at the time, but it helped to read Acts 19:19. Now, looking back, I can't imagine having done otherwise. Books aren't sacred -- they're just a tool, and if they don't serve the purpose of truth, they're a waste of paper, at the very least.
Another box of "undecided" went in the garage, to be looked at in several years' time. When I finally got around to opening it, I had grown in my faith to the point where it was obvious which materials were edifying, and which ones were not. I did keep a few of the latter, for an apologetics project that I hope to get around to some day, but they stay in the garage.
BTW, I do think Steiner was brilliant in a sense -- not for his weird Anthroposophical doctrines, but for his ability to find and assimilate some very good practical and aesthetic ideas from a variety of sources. For instance, as far as I can tell, most of the best parts of Waldorf Kindergarten are lifted directly from traditional, pre-industrial, pre-Reformation Germanic childhood and family life. As such, they're part of our European Catholic heritage. My sense is that we should be putting our energy into rediscovering that heritage for ourselves and our children, without getting sidetracked into lengthy consideration of strange and un-Catholic worldviews. |
|
|
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 2:27pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eleanor, thank you for re-posting that quote! I wonder if we could start another thread where could brainstorm on root sources to consider for some of the more attractive aspects that we associate with Waldorf such as those you reference.
It is so true that our Catholic heritage is a wealth of culture and inspiration waiting to be discovered or rediscovered.
For instance, I don't think that Caroline should feel bad about innocently bringing up Simplicity Parenting, but I admit I found the most interesting part of that discussion to be the meatier truths about simplicity and detachment that Willa and others were able to supplement from Catholic thinkers and philosophers, framing it in a response to Christ's call in the gospel.
Or maybe someone can point to some sources for bringing rhythms into the day in an authentically Catholic way by sharing how they've incorporated the rhythms of the Divine Office or a Benedictine inspired rule into their homes?
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
guitarnan
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10883
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'd love that, Lindsay. Our pastor gave a talk about using the Liturgy of the Hours in that way but I wasn't able to attend. 
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kingvozzo
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2005
Location: Maine
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2653
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 5:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
St. Ann wrote:
The Secret Garden by Burnett
|
|
|
I haven't read this particular one, but I'm familiar with The Little Princess. What's the difficulty with the Secret Garden ?
__________________
Noreen
Wife to Ed
Mom to 4 great kids and 10 sweet ones in Our Lady's arms
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 5:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Noreen, I believe Stephanie was just pointing out that Anthroposophic publishers are re-printing classics that do not necessarily have anything Anthroposophic in them. That you can't always judge a book by its publisher.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hylabrook1
Forum Moderator
Joined: July 09 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5980
|
| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 7:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Noreen - Absolutely no problem with The Secret Garden! It's one of my very favorite children's books - I, for one, really encourage you to read it. A wonderful story!
Peace,
Nancy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
