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mum2five
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I'm really glad that this subject has been raised! I'm new to the forum and although not entirely new to HE I'm currently responsible for our son Benedict's education at this stage in his life. Due to multiple complications associated with type one diabetes and insulin pump therapy, Benedict had gotten so far behind in class that, the only way to help rectify this was one to one teaching at home. I've been a real quandry about curriculum v unschooling, if a curriculum what sort? I know from being with him these past weeks he responds to hands on stuff. I found the resources over on Serendipity really helpful and one thing led to another and I actually bought a Waldorf Math and curriculum e-book. It was only upon inspecting it further that my husband and I began to read stuff that did not sit right. Then of course I read the article on LHLA blog and as a result I'm back to square one again!! Am hoping that through this thread and other discussions in the forum I can find suggestions that will help us on our homeschool journey.
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Barbara C.
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When I first started investigating homeschooling, I read up a little on all of the different methods. I really liked the scope and sequence of Waldorf. It seemed to encompass the arts, practical skills (sewing/knitting), and (if I remember right) foreign language in a more gentle way than say Classical method.
I did not end up following the Waldorf scope/sequence. It was even too structured for us.  But it wasn't until much later that I became aware of its origins and the underlying philosophies. As many have pointed out, there is a big difference between attending a a Waldorf school and "stealing" a few Waldorf ideas...because really many of the more popular Waldorf ideas are found in many other methods (delayed reading instruction, for instance, is found in the "Better Late than Early" philosophy).
I can understand one's trepidation about identifying oneself with Waldorf method. Other methods (such as unschooling) can have multiple definitions/dimensions but some of the Waldorf ones have been officially condemned by the Church. I think I would come up with my own terminology to describe what I do, like "arts-based curriculum" to distinguish or "I use some Oak Meadow products".
I think to most people who haven't studied it in-depth "Waldorf" just means: arts-based curriculum that uses high quality (expensive) supplies. Just like "Montessori" conjures up ideas of individualized, hands-on activities.
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Barbara
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Bookswithtea
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Edited by ~Books
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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CrunchyMom
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I think the article Elizabeth directly linked to in her blog was unfortunate. I don't imagine the woman who answered the question had any idea what she was stepping into when she was asked about Catholic homeschoolers using some Waldorf-popularized art supplies for inspiration. The original question-er made it sound like it was all one and the same. |
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Is that all she was asked about? Is using Waldorf-popularized art supplies all we are doing when we consider using a curriculum like Oak Meadow or Christopherus? I don't think so. Obviously there are Catholic homeschoolers going beyond just adding a bit of art and block scheduling to their hodge podge.
I'm not picking on Martha or anyone else considering the use of these curricula, but there clearly is an audience for the answer as given whether one agrees with it or not.
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JodieLyn
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Books, you bring up some good points. I would be concerned in how to go about doing a lot of that. How do we know what to look for to avoid anthroposophy and new age when the condemnation includes reading about those.
It's not only a grey area.. it's murky and that makes it hard to know what is lurking in there. Some things might be perfectly fine. I just don't know how to comfortably go about figuring that out without exposing myself to unsavory things and perhaps through ingnorance on my part, exposing my children.
But...
we can look at other sources for particular materials.. like the history of water colors for instance to know that using those aren't anthroposophic.
Basically just being able to not have to read from Waldorf sources makes that a much "safer" proposition for investigating.
I know it seems overboard to eschew anything that "seems to be" Waldorf whether or not the actual problems are in that item. But the Church so rarely gives us warnings/cautions/condemnations.. it seems to me that it is a pretty big deal to avoid it.
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Martha
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A note:
A warning or a caution are NOT the same as a condemnation and are NOT interchangeable.
A caution that the uneducated should be careful of a material is far different from condemning the thoughts in the materials in their entirely and forbidding the reading thereof.
Although it is true the chruch rarely gives a condemnation, She regularly and consistantly gives repeated cautions and warnings. That is not to say we should ignore them. That is to say that there is a LOT to be cautious and forewarned about in the world.
Books said it very well for me.
And how to tell?
Honestly it easier for me to see theosophy/Steiner due to how obvious it is. It tends to be a lot harder to sift out the bits of half-truths and errors slipped in protestant materials. Although I will say that the reason I'm looking at OM is precisely because OM is very waldorf-lite.
I should also mention that I come from a rather non-traditional background even for a a convert and tend to see things that many Catholics do not because of that.
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Bookswithtea
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Helen
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I think a lot of the rest of these materials are in a grey area where we cannot really tell if they are actually anthroposophical or if they are just Waldorf popularized, without a closer look. |
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I think the area considered grey can be cut down by listening to the source. If they say they are Anthroposophical, Waldof Educational, Rudolf Steiner inspired… then they are. I don’t need to take a closer look if the company explicitly says I’m Waldorf. Obviously, it is much more difficult to discern if the source doesn't give its origin.
For the benefit of Waverly and Mum2five and any other new member who is reading, I would like to give a concrete example of how easy it is not to notice a New Age idea and concept in a confirmed Waldorf source.
A few years ago, there was a thread in the Domestic Church forum which linked to a Waldorf catalogue. It wasn’t even an ebook or an anthroposophical treaty -- simply a catalogue. The thread was about the Advent Spiral Wreath.
(This was before anyone really studied about Waldorf. So, who would have known?) But this example left an indelible impression upon me.
Having gone through the documents, now I can see clearly that the spiral is an important New Age symbol:
From the Church's document on the New Age Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of Life, paragraph 2.1:
wrote:
| For many people, the term New Age clearly refers to a momentous turning-point in history. According to astrologers, we live in the Age of Pisces, which has been dominated by Christianity. But the current age of Pisces is due to be replaced by the New Age of Aquarius early in the third Millennium.(14) The Age of Aquarius has such a high profile in the New Age movement largely because of the influence of theosophy, spiritualism and anthroposophy, and their esoteric antecedents |
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My paraphrase:
The New Age believes that the Christian era has finished and New Age is beginning.
Steiner definitely believed this because he wrote:
Rudolf Steiner wrote:
The Roman Catholic Church, as a mighty corporation, represents the last withered remains of the civilization of the fourth post-Atlantean Epoch. It can be well authenticated in all detail that the Roman Catholic Church represents the last remnant of what was the right civilization for the fourth post-Atlantean epoch, what was justified right up to the middle of the Fifteenth Century, but what has now become a shadow. Of course products of a later evolution often herald their arrival in an earlier period, and its earlier products linger on into a later epoch; but in essentials the Roman Catholic Church represents what was justifiable for Europe and its colonies up to the middle of the Fifteenth Century. |
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Lectures on Catholicism
I quote this written material to show that the written philosophy has consequences which spill over into the physical materials found in a Waldorf catalogue.
The spiral is a symbol used in the New Age movement to represent their perception that a new age is beginning with the old left behind. In their teaching they believe there is a progression. There is a moving away from Christianity to something better.
(Obviously Advent isn’t going to have the same meaning in the Waldorf circles either.)
This experience taught me the value of a respectful distance – even from Waldorf suppliers. I would prefer to avoid a study of Anthroposophy in order to weed out the good physical materials from the bad physical materials. This is why in my earlier post, I said I want to find physical materials corroborated in another educational system.
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CrunchyMom
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Martha wrote:
| Honestly it easier for me to see theosophy/Steiner due to how obvious it is. |
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Maybe it is obvious to you and you are able to sift through the materials more easily than I can?
I find that the more I read, the more influences I find that I did not see early on and which I would rather not entertain in my home. The church warnings seems to speak of this difficulty
from Jesus Christ, Bearer of Water and Light
Quote:
| Certainly New Age creates its own atmosphere, and it can be hard to distinguish between things which are innocuous and those which really need to be questioned. |
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I will concede that such warnings must speak to a wide variety of experiences and education levels, so some may be more adept in readily distinguishing these things than myself.
However, I read enough stuff on anthroposophy to know *I* didn't fully appreciate its implications on some Waldorf methods, and what I did read disturbed me enough to know that I really didn't want to read more, and given the church's warning, I'm not sure I should. I certainly don't feel its edifying, and I don't feel qualified to pick and choose without this insight.
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Lindsay
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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MaryM
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mum2five wrote:
I'm really glad that this subject has been raised! I'm new to the forum and although not entirely new to HE I'm currently responsible for our son Benedict's education at this stage in his life.
...I actually bought a Waldorf Math and curriculum e-book. It was only upon inspecting it further that my husband and I began to read stuff that did not sit right. |
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Barbara C. wrote:
I think to most people who haven't studied it in-depth "Waldorf" just means: arts-based curriculum that uses high quality (expensive) supplies. Just like "Montessori" conjures up ideas of individualized, hands-on activities. |
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Oh my, there is so much out there for homeschoolers to wade through in making decisions for our families, isn't there? I pull both these points/quotes above because I think it is important to remember that not everyone comes to the table with all the information and knowledge about every individual material, philosophy, that might be needed to make prudential decisions. Or for that matter not knowing where there are sources or specific thoughts from the Church that are to be considered. I'm always thankful when those are pointed out for me if I'm not aware of them.
The phrase "take the good" is very common in our circles. I would hope we can all agree that one should have an idea of what they are sifting through to find the good. You have to know what to be cautious of in order to be cautious or decide to avoid altogether. As a manager I see questions that people have - ones that maybe aren't even asked on the forum. I also see that new members sometimes post about not having heard of Waldorf until they came here. I forget that not everyone "knows" this already because my exposure and knowledge of this topic go back almost 21 years to my oldest son's toddler years. But that's a whole different thread...  so as not to detract from the original question which wisely is looking for thoughts, ideas, resources for discernment on using materials and ideas from Waldorf, I get back to that.
If you know nothing about it (ie. Waldorf or another philosophy either) making a decision about it might come from actual or implied endorsement by folks you trust or simply from the personal attraction to what looks beautiful, natural, simple - in otherwords the externals. I would hope this OP question and the responses helps folks sort out ideas before deciding to make a purchase they might later find to be problematic - like mum2five said "It was only upon inspecting it further that my husband and I began to read stuff that did not sit right. "
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JodieLyn
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Books, I think the only big difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is
I'm saying Steiner was condemned. Those others may need careful handling but they're not condemned. That comdemnation involves the fact that we're not supposed to read those writings. So I don't see it as only a comfort issue.
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SeaStar
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MaryM wrote:
If you know nothing about it (ie. Waldorf or another philosophy either) making a decision about it might come from actual or implied endorsement by folks you trust or simply from the personal attraction to what looks beautiful, natural, simple - in otherwords the externals. I would hope this OP question and the responses helps folks sort out ideas before deciding to make a purchase they might later find to be problematic - like mum2five said "It was only upon inspecting it further that my husband and I began to read stuff that did not sit right. " |
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Mum2five-
I had a similar experience with a book. It got a good recommendation, so I thought it would be OK to use with my kids. When I had a chance to hold the book in my hands and read it, it did not seem quite right to me.
I googled the author and found he has some definite New Age links.
I was very discouraged. I don't have time to research every single author, company and product I may want to use. Maybe I should- I truly learned a lesson with this one. For me, it will be easier to steer clear now on from anything that may be suspect.
That is what breaks my heart about all this... you think something is fine, and then you find that one little thing that doesn't sit well, and then you investigate and find there are many layers and links you didn't even know about. It's tricky... deceptive, even.
I bought that book and financially supported this man and his New Age agenda  I am sorry you had a similar experience.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
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Martha
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JodieLyn wrote:
Books, I think the only big difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is
I'm saying Steiner was condemned. Those others may need careful handling but they're not condemned. That comdemnation involves the fact that we're not supposed to read those writings. So I don't see it as only a comfort issue. |
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but he was NOT.
He and his theosophy ideas were cautioned against and warned against as misleading to the uneducated of the faithful who might not understand the errors in his beliefs.
That is NOT condemned.
That is not an edict against even reading about his methods or opinions or ideas.
It is what it is - a warning and a caution that his ideas are full of errors in theology that a Catholic should avoid following.
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Martha
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Helen
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Martha wrote:
JodieLyn wrote:
Books, I think the only big difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is
I'm saying Steiner was condemned. Those others may need careful handling but they're not condemned. That comdemnation involves the fact that we're not supposed to read those writings. So I don't see it as only a comfort issue. |
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but he was NOT. |
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Martha, just for clarity.
The condemnation was issued by the Holy Office when Pope Benedict XV was Pope in 1919. (The Holy Office is now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.) The condemnation expressly lists the theosophists. This is one of the many places where this stuff gets confusing. I had to keep looking at it over and over. Theosophy and Anthroposophy are different branches of the same tree.
The condemnation document calls it theosophical doctrines.
The wording of the condemnation is expressed like this:
wrote:
Can the doctrines which today men call theosophical, be reconciled with Catholic doctrine, and hence is it lawful to enroll in theosophical societies, take part in their gatherings, read their books, periodicals, journals, writings? ....Negative in omnibus (In the negative in everything). (DS 3648;ASS 11 (1919), p. 317) |
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Steiner's writings are condemned.
The more modern document
Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of Life contains many cautions -- including mentioning Steiner by name.
My second post in this thread fleshes out this idea more fully.
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Ave Maria!
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Eleanor
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Back in high school and college, I had somewhat of a dalliance with occult and New Age ideas. During this time, a friend and I once stopped in to a local store that sold supplies for magick/witchcraft, just to see what it was like.  I didn't go into the back part of the store -- which emanated creepiness -- but I did buy a pretty velvet bag and some polished stones, which were on display near the cash register. For years, I kept them on a shelf, because the stones were nice to look at, and the bag was handy to put things in. But somehow they always seemed kind of.... not right. They just gave me a bad feeling.
After returning to the faith in my 20's, I threw out the stones and the bag, along with several more boxes of questionable books and items that I'd acquired during my time of spiritual drifting. Shortly afterward, I had a series of bizarre and scary dreams. I honestly suspect that I was under demonic attack during that time.
A year or so ago, I went against my normal inclination to avoid all things even remotely occultic, and placed a fairly large order for art materials from a Waldorf supplier that was highly recommended on here. When the box arrived and I opened it -- excited to finally be joining in all the beeswax-y and felt-y fun -- I got that bad feeling again. There were creepy pictures and symbols on some of the packaging and advertising inserts, and just a very strong sense of not-rightness about the whole thing.
I was on the verge of sending the box back, but decided to keep it, because I'd been looking forward to it, the art supplies seemed fine in themselves, and it was all so... pretty. So I removed any packaging that had disturbing images, and sprinkled holy water on all the items. At this point, my husband walked in and asked what was going on. Then I realized how strange it was for me to voluntarily bring this stuff into my domestic church, even after it was creeping me out so much, both on a spiritual level, and a "how can I support this business?" level. But at that point, I was stuck with the things, because they were out of their packages and, well, kind of damp.
My children have had fun with the crayons and such, and I'm pretty sure these things aren't going to destroy my household. But I still see it as a mistake to buy from someone who promotes the occult (as was done in the advertising materials included with the order, which linked to a site that advocates Steiner's work).
On a different note, I don't think Waldorf can be compared to Montessori and Charlotte Mason, since the latter two were Christians, and their educational philosophies and methods haven't been specifically cautioned against by the Church. ("Keeping it Catholic" is just one person's opinion; she's not an authorized representative of the Holy See. ) So it seems to me that any critical discussion of those methods would be better placed in a different thread.
With Waldorf, it's not a matter of *if* there are problems. We know there are. It's a matter of "how far do we stay away from them."
(BTW, when I mentioned this to my husband, he told me that he just heard a talk by Father Corapi, in which Fr. C. said that objects with occultic origins can work like "sacramentals in reverse." This is certainly what it felt like to me.)
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PDyer
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Helen wrote:
| Having gone through the documents, now I can see clearly that the spiral is an important New Age symbol: |
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This reminds me of the time when my sister was dreadfully upset when she saw me wearing a pair of shoes, one with a silver moon decoration on it and one with a silver sun decoration on it. She said they were new age symbols and then she accused me of worshipping the sun and the moon. And here I thought I had bought what was to me a cute pair of shoes. Who knew?
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JennGM
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Eleanor wrote:
Then I realized how strange it was for me to voluntarily bring this stuff into my domestic church, even after it was creeping me out so much, both on a spiritual level, and a "how can I support this business?" level. But at that point, I was stuck with the things, because they were out of their packages and, well, kind of damp.
My children have had fun with the crayons and such, and I'm pretty sure these things aren't going to destroy my household. But I still see it as a mistake to buy from someone who promotes the occult (as was done in the advertising materials included with the order, which linked to a site that advocates Steiner's work). |
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Wow, Eleanor! I didn't make that step to buy the materials. I considered, filled my cart, they were so enticing! But looked up Stockmar website, and Mercurious, which is the American wholesale dealer of the Waldorf materials. I was very surprised to see that it is not just about all-natural beautiful materials, but the anthroposophic philosophy is intentionally tied into making these materials. It is explained carefully about the 12 senses and the 7 different colors based on Goethe's "Theory of Colours”, the "Art Makes Sense logo, and the WDU quality reasons. It gave me the willies reading all that stuff. I thought they were just plain old beeswax crayons, but I was mistaken!
Clicking further there are partner sites and list of companies and further links connected with Mercurious are full of anthroposophic connections. This page (pro-anthroposophic) shows all the connected anthroposophic organizations. I just had no idea of the vastness of this all.
I also noticed that many of these small companies that sell Waldorf supplies, like Paper Scissors Stone give directly back to the American Waldorf.
That's when I made the conclusion for myself that I don’t want to support these companies because of their anthroposophic connections. Buying these supplies supports something that the Church has condemned.
I don't think the occult label that is mentioned in that article is such a big jump. Steiner himself describes his philosophy as an occult science. And this is verified and explained in several places in the definition of theosophy and anthrosophy, including in the Vatican's New Age Document.
Eleanor wrote:
| On a different note, I don't think Waldorf can be compared to Montessori and Charlotte Mason, since the latter two were Christians, and their educational philosophies and methods haven't been specifically cautioned against by the Church. ("Keeping it Catholic" is just one person's opinion; she's not an authorized representative of the Holy See. ) So it seems to me that any critical discussion of those methods would be better placed in a different thread. |
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Yes, a very good point. Anthroposophy is a non-religion, a philosophy as it were. It's hard to define, but it's not Christian. It's closer to Hinduism and Buddhism if you want to put it in a religious context than it is compared to Christian sects. You can't compare apples to cow's meat.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Mackfam
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Hey gals,
This is a really great discussion and has helped me answer a few questions of my own. I've got a few more that have come up though as a result...so don't stop talking! I'm listening!
Just a note though...this can be a topic that brings the heat! Remember to be tough on the topic and gentle on the member! We don't want any feelings hurt, and we're all looking out for what is best for our kids!! That goes without saying!
We have some great ideas for helping us maintain an atmosphere of respect and don't forget those helpful terms of membership and posting 
This topic is HUGE, and there are a lot of side topics and tangents to consider (so many that I can hardly keep up!) So, since we're working out this question, let's keep replies focused on the original question: How do you feel about using some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home?
Just so you know, we don't want this topic to get away from us. There are some meaty posts with links to get through, and ideas can sometimes come in fast, so a moderator could place a temporary lock on this thread at their discretion. We'll announce this as well as announce the re-opening of the thread.
It goes without saying that if any post attacks another, we're going to take a hard line on that and just remove the post, no explanation necessary, so keep thoughts topic focused.
Keep those questions and thoughts coming...I'm reading with interest.
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Jen Mackintosh
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Martha
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Okay. (deep breathing here)
So some are saying Waldorf methods are a synonymous with theosophy/anthroposophy/Steiner, thus just having the label of "waldorf" means it is verboten? (Nevermind how many things have a catholic/christian label without being true to the cathoic church.)
So in a nutshell, some are saying that the label of waldorf can turn a simple art craft to witchcraft? It's the word waldorf on it?
This sounds terrible of me and I really don't mean it that way. These are sincere questions. (Bc I'm like Patty - it's just a cute pair of shoes. Someone deciding that they want to put some special meaning on a shape or whatever does not make it so.)
Mary brought up a good point that for many of us, if not most of us, we only have the opinions of others to guide us in what might work for us. I know this is true for me many times.
To me, this is why it's important to have an open discussion.
I'd be greatly interested in details from someone who has had it in their hands.
I went page by page in that OM 3 syllabus I had and found far less contrary to the faith than I would in the same grade level of Abeka. I'd be thrilled to have others do the same in other materials.
Throughout this discussion I'm reminded of guinea pigs served as the last supper in a painting in Peru cathedral.  To me, waldorf methods or OM is no different than that and christmas trees. Regardless of where the concept originated or what it once meant, that is not what it is now. The Church has, can, and will continue to take that which is good and use it for good purpose.
So I won't read Steiner.
I won't be sending my kids to a waldorf school to be educated by non-christians.
But I am highly likely to be using OM. Because I have not seen much of Steiner/Theosophy gunk in it.
And I will not use Abeka, because frankly there is a ton of gunk in it I just don't want to waste time editing.
So I guess that is how I feel about using some of the Waldorf ideas/products in your home?
I look at it as just that and only that. Waldorf methods/products. Not Steiner or any of his beliefs, of which I have no interest.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Martha
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| Posted: Feb 18 2010 at 7:24pm | IP Logged
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Oh and I hope no one thinks I'm flaming them or whatever.
I'm truely not and sincerely interested and contemplating my own discernment methods.
And by all means, I truely do want to hear if a product contains concern.
I've had that sinking heart in the stomach feeling when you realise that whatever is just. not. right.
It stinks.
Especially when you've spent limited funds on it and are stuck with it until more funds arrive. 
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
Topic Closed)
