| Author | |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Michelle - I offer apology for mistaking your meaning about her blog.
To others - I'm not asking anyone to deny any teaching. I think the sticking point is very strong sense of being patronized (matronized?).
The notion that we must throw the baby out with the bathwater is not the usual perspective on this board. Thus I find it hard to believe it is that hard to see how one can use some materials/methods without bringing Steiner into their home. I can agree to disagree on that.
As for Foss - she has my prayers.
This thread appears to be single-minded. I can hear truth even if I don't like it. I agree there's stuff I don't like about the founding beliefs of OM. But I also see that the actual stuff I have in my hands is just what I have needed and been earnestly praying for. So I come here asking for what exactly I might avoid in it.
And I get nada but patronizing.
A friendly caution offerred - fine.
A friendly FYI that it's verboten Steiner related - fine.
A very near refusal to discuss the actual methods sans Steiner - not helpful.
I don't care what crackpot ideas Steiner had about beeswax and probably can't ever use it anyways, but there ARE valid reasons to use it. If we are going to refuse anything that some crank wove into some kind belief, then I'm not sure we can drink tea or study astronomy. But we do. And the church does not forbid it.
I'd be very happy to call it something else. Anything else at this point.
I'm not hurt. I'm frustrated. And maybe mildly annoyed.
I might be insulting some of you, but frankly I don't consider anyone here an expert or an authority, even if they wrote a book. (Wasnt the point of the books that the authors were just moms like us?) I thought we were all just catholic home schooling moms here to discuss and share. Maybe you are all more expert authorities than I thought. Or maybe I'm just not Catholic enough.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Moderator's Note:
Hardhat Zone: Understaffed moderators scrambling to maintain things. Please proceed with caution.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha, I think what you're frustrated with is that
Quote:
| we were all just catholic home schooling moms here to discuss and share |
|
|
And that because of that there is no one here that self qualifies themselves as able to study and expose each of the errors that might be in something from a source that includes teachings of Steiner.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha, I am not sure what you are asking for. to discuss actual methods without Steiner?
This is where I actually was weeks ago when Waldorf/Steiner first came to light here and in some other blogs/websites (well, or was brought up again!  )
I even PM'd some people asking questions along what I think you may be asking.
however, the more I read what the Church had to say, and sought counsel, it was pretty clear to me for my family, that I needed to just abandon ideas I had to salvage, because Steiner was clearly (to me) the founder of the method, whatever I would try to morph it into.
Willa, I unintentionally crossed posts with yours so I apologize if my post above is too personal.
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha wrote:
A very near refusal to discuss the actual methods sans Steiner - not helpful.
***
Maybe you are all more expert authorities than I thought. Or maybe I'm just not Catholic enough. |
|
|
I'm sure you are plenty Catholic. That's just defeatist talk (I mean defeatist as in being Catholic, not as per this discussion).
For me, it is my feeling nothing like an expert that makes me want to avoid Waldorf/Steiner.
I guess I figure that any of the methods used that are devoid of Steiner exist separate from him. I'm not discounting that there is some good in his methods, but I'm not going to look for them there.
I really hope I'm not patronizing. I feel anything but superior in this, if that helps.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CrunchyMom wrote:
Moderator's Note:
Hardhat Zone: Understaffed moderators scrambling to maintain things. Please proceed with caution. |
|
|
 this made me chuckle.
Have a wonderful Lord's Day everyone, and I promise, I'm back to silence for the rest of Lent.
Peace of Christ,
love,
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
cathhomeschool
Board Moderator
Texas Bluebonnets
Joined: Jan 26 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7303
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 6:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha wrote:
This thread appears to be single-minded. I can hear truth even if I don't like it. I agree there's stuff I don't like about the founding beliefs of OM. But I also see that the actual stuff I have in my hands is just what I have needed and been earnestly praying for. So I come here asking for what exactly I might avoid in it.
|
|
|
Martha, I understand your dilemma. If I were in your shoes and wanted to try Oak Meadow I would proceed with caution. I'd work through the daily lesson plans without paying attention to the stuff in the Heart of Learning book (and I'd use the Process Manual strictly as a How To finger knit, etc manual). I'd ignore things like form drawing, movement suggestions and restrictions on colors/drawing styles/art techniques. I would stick to using the math, science and language stuff that sounded "normal" (ie. common sense stuff). I'd supplement with unrelated stories, art and music.
__________________
Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Another specific area of concern with the content of Oak Meadow, which I haven't seen mentioned so far on this thread, is the way that they teach about non-Christian religions and mythologies. Not that it's necessarily wrong for children to learn about these things -- but the emphasis they're given in the curriculum, the very positive and affirming way in which their stories are told, and the types of discussion questions that are asked, seem to be designed to encourage indifferentism and syncretism under the guise of "tolerance."
(For instance, see the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th grade samples.)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lambchopwife
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 23 2007
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 7:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MicheleQ wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
Would it be charitable for those who see Waldorf as potentially dangerous to remain silent?
I don't see how that would be acting in love. I'm confused about what would have been perceived as truly charitable way to proceed. I think we are all bumbling in our own attempts, but I trust that everyone here is at least seeking to be motivated out of love. |
|
|
Bear in mind that many of us have kept silent --for over two years now. But with heavy hearts and a burden of conscience. Speaking up on this IS charity. I realize it may not feel that way to many but I know for myself and many others that it is indeed in love that we speak.
The Catechism tells us that "charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest."
stefoodie wrote:
| I hope that in the future when we can all look at this thread with more objective eyes that we can all see that there was no intention here to attack anyone, certainly not Elizabeth, and certainly not anyone who has taken Waldorf and drawn inspiration from it. |
|
|
I certainly have no desire to upset anyone but I won't remain silent. I am sincerely concerned for people I love and care about. I don't think this is a small issue --I think it's big and serious and frankly I feel a bit like I am sticking my neck out here. I have nothing to gain by upsetting people though I certainly could have much to lose. But it doesn't matter. In the end we all have to answer for what we have and haven't done and I know I would not be able to live with being silent on this issue. We are family ladies like it or not and as such we are called to love one another and be honest with one another. That's what's happening here, not detraction, not calumny but sincere concern for those in our family who we feel are walking in a dangerous direction. NO ONE is suggesting it is intentional but it sure is troublesome. |
|
|
I think you have made some excellent points Michele! I understand that some of us feel that things have not been charitable around here. Sometimes the truth hurts a little and in fact it even stings. Are we being uncharitable when we tell a loved one that they need to follow Christ? Are we uncharitable when we tell a Catholic friend who is using birth control that it is a sin to do so? No, charity is also telling the truth even when it hurts to do so. Christ never promised us complete joy on earth, He also told us that if you love Me the world will hate you. I know some of you that have been influenced by Waldorf methods are upset, but sometimes we must humble ourselves to say this is wrong and correct our mistakes. Like I said in an earlier post, the church teaches if it comes from evil nothing good can come from it. My problem is that I can't understand why some are still questioning this and still trying to justify using Waldorf anything by saying they can take what is good from it. I'm not saying that it's not okay to use beewax anything, what I am saying it that OM is Waldorf. I'm sorry if this hurts, but if it's Waldorf it's bad. Now, I'm posting this and hope that you can take this out of love, oh please!!!!!
Cheryl
__________________
~ Be not afraid to tell Jesus that you love Him; even though it be without feeling, this is the way to oblige Him to help you, and carry you like a little child too feeble to walk.~ St. Therese
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary's daughter
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 13 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 8:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm sad to see this "discussion" come to an end. It would have been good for someone who uses Waldorf-inspired activities to chime in on how they do it exactly. You know, the nuts and bolts! Then be able to enter into a discussion how they reconcile using these Waldorf ideas in light of Church teachings, whether or not they see any contradiction, and why. I'm sure the ladies who use these ideas in their home school have given a lot of thought and prayer to their curriculum.
Just for the record, I use beeswax crayons because I like the rich color and the fact they don't crumble like crayolas, we read fairy tales because there is a lot to be learned about life from them, we do main lesson books because it is a good way to record lessons learned, and we studied flower fairies because it was fun!
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
KASB
Forum Pro
Joined: May 02 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 302
|
| Posted: Feb 27 2010 at 8:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am not a frequent poster here, but have been aware of this conversation and wanted to add a couple of references that might help out some of this in perspective for those who are newer readers of the forum. In the fall of 2007, using Waldorf curriculum and ideas was brought up on the board and after the thread was locked before many had a chance to express their thoughts. Lissa generously opened her blog for comments as a way for the conversation to continue. It can be read here I was part of that conversation and to my knowledge, it was the first time that the Church's condemnation of anthroposophy and the document on the New Age, which mentions Rudolf Steiner by name, was brought to everyone's attention. Several people who have contributed to this thread also contributed to the older one. And dear Martha, I had to chuckle a little, because you were having a hard time getting your same Oak Meadow questions answered then ! In the past 2 years, the "Waldorf issue" has been skirted around and as evidenced by this thread, has never really been clearly resolved in many people's minds. The question and answer on LHLA brought it all to the forefront again and now there are new homeschool moms and new readers to the 4Real board who may not fully understand why some people may seem more prepared to voice their concern about the issue. Many who have posted have thought, studied and prayed about the matter as a result of being made aware of the Church's teachings. They have had time to formulate their positions and I think they have expressed their concerns and articulated the Church's teachings with charity and out of the utmost concern for not only those participating in this thread, but also for all those who read and and never post or even register as a member here. So perhaps those who are just learning of the issue do feel they were caught off guard and unable to keep up, but that is through no fault of the participants themselves.
After being made aware of the Church's warnings, Lissa's position on recommending and using Waldorf materials/methods changed. I am sure many other people changed their minds also. I think that is a relevant part of this current thread - before the awareness of the Church's teachings, we were just a bunch of Catholic mothers wondering if we could adapt and use Waldorf in some way, shape or form in our home. Now the Church's position is known, we are operating on a different playing field so to speak. As Catholics, we must take what Holy Mother Church teaches into consideration. Even when we don't like it, even when it is hard, even when we think it's outdated or doesn't apply to our situation. And we all must take some personal responsibility to learn what the Church does teach. We must read for ourselves what the Church has said and if you are considering using a certain curriculum, supplier, book that may come from a questionable source or viewpoint, you must research it for yourself. It is wonderful to ask on this forum or someone's blog for opinions and advice, but going to the source will usually give you the most accurate answer. If you are going to research something that the Church warns against, be cautious, not only because you could possibly be led into error, but also because some things are just very disturbing. Consult a trusted and faithful priest with your questions - if you don't have one, email or write a faithful priest and ask. I know for a fact that the Fathers of Mercy will assist you with your questions. This issue is not going to go away when the board closes or the thread is locked. Feelings are hurt, people disagree, questions linger. But this has been a productive and learning experience - the Church's position has been clearly defined, links provided for further research and many thoughtful and reasoned voices have been heard. I hope and pray that those who have felt misunderstood, angry, or attacked will read through the older thread and then this one again and see how positions have evolved, how new information has informed, and how people have tried to clarify and express their thoughts on a very difficult topic in a very difficult medium.
Remember this board is made up of homeschooling moms, striving to know, love and serve God, but they are not responsible for your home, children or choices of curriculum. No matter how many posts they've written, if they've written a book or magazine article, if they're a super blog mom, at the end of the day, we're all just children of God, hoping, praying, working to raise the precious souls He has entrusted to us. I will keep all you dear ladies in my prayers as we strive to grow in holiness this Lenten season.
Blessings,
Kym
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
