| Author | |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
The whole thing with "fixed" toys, though, is that what is "fixed" can be really individual from child to child. For instance, I played with Barbies A LOT from probably age 8 through 13. Back then, they didn't have child or baby Barbies, so my She-Ra dolls became children and Star Wars/GI Joe figurines became babies for my Barbies.  I remember I used to re-enact/process EVERYTHING I read or saw with my Barbies for hours. And my Barbies never had missing body parts...and neither to do the ones my kids play with.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JSchaaf wrote:
I had to take issue with KJP calling both Barbie and AG dolls "fixed". Barbie, yes. But we have four AG historical dolls and they are rarely used as their original character. Just last night my girls were evacuating the AG dolls over the Berlin Wall. I definitely think there is a gray area for toys. We used to have Waldorf baby dolls, but they were never played with.
Jennifer |
|
|
Yeah, the comment about the expensive dolls and the haves/have nots girls got to me a little bit, too. I'm definitely not convinced that AG dolls are fixed. I love Waldorf dolls, but you can't really play with their hair, and that is a big part of my dd's play. So we've never made the investment beyond one doll with Waldorf, for a 3 yr old (who loved it, btw).
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
crusermom wrote:
| Cutting back on books is so counter to my usual impulses. Books = good. More books = better. But, I have had to cut back with our frequent military moves and the threat of going over the weight limit |
|
|
My family was military and so I never had very many books, but each one I had was a real treasure. I am not sure my kids have had the opportunity to develop such a close relationship with their books -- there are so many. I have wondered before if it could feel a bit oppressive to them.
The other thing that occurred to me last night when I was looking at my walk-in closet which I made into my curriculum/book closet (since I don't have near as many clothes and accessories as books ) is that as books for kids have increased, education has gone downhill, it seems. When books weren't as readily available, they seemed more like treasures.
Laura Ingalls Wilder talks about how her family only had 2 books -- a Bible and a Natural History book.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 3:39pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
The best year we ever had hsing was the year all of our books except one bookcase were in storage and I had no car. Our tests scores were fantastic, we built a model of a longhouse, and had homemade soup and bread every day for lunch. Somehow they learned even without all our "learning materials". How do you think that happened? "Maybe learning," she said, "doesn't come from a store. Maybe learning, perhaps, means a little bit more." (apologies to Dr. Seuss)
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 7:24pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
stellamaris wrote:
| The best year we ever had hsing was the year all of our books except one bookcase were in storage and I had no car. Our tests scores were fantastic, we built a model of a longhouse, and had homemade soup and bread every day for lunch. Somehow they learned even without all our "learning materials". How do you think that happened? "Maybe learning," she said, "doesn't come from a store. Maybe learning, perhaps, means a little bit more." (apologies to Dr. Seuss) |
|
|
OK, I gotta know more about this. I'm drooling at the thought. How old were your kids and how many did you have at the time? How did they handle not having activities and such? Did you have workbooks for the basics like math or did you wing that, too?
I'd be grateful for a pm if this is too off-the-subject. As a result of KJP's thoughts on books, I am really trying to envision what a simple homeschool looks like, without it being simplistic, if that makes sense?
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 7:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Willa wrote:
My family was military and so I never had very many books, but each one I had was a real treasure. |
|
|
I was a Navyman's daughter. I had one small shelf. Works like the Little Women series, 5 Little Peppers and How they Grew, Hans Brinker, and some modern works that had come from Scholastic books sales at the public school one year.  I read and re-read them. I loved them. But I also made use of the school library. I overindulged just like my kids do now with our home library, bringing home 14 books for every 2 weeks. One book a day. 14 was the limit they would let me check out. I don't know if it did me harm or not? As an adult I have had to force myself to read slowly, kind of like fast eaters have to train themselves to eat slowly in order to not over-indulge.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SeaStar
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 16 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9068
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 8:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am just catching up now with all the posts for today. I wanted to say thank you for all the practical suggestions on how to deal with my attached child.
I do have toy bins, and we do rotate toys, but there are still way too many out. I need to work on that.
I love the rope as a present idea! My ds would love that. This year, between his birthday and Christmas, he received about 4 different flashlights as gifts, and he was totally thrilled with each one. (Reminded me of the Henry Huggins book when Henry gets six flashlights at his birthday party and is so happy- because a boy can never have too many flashlights).
I need to come up with a list of things like rope and other practical things that can be given as gifts. I wish I could send out a letter to the family- I tried that one year with one relative, and it was not well received at all  . Now we just smile and say thank you, then plan to make things disappear later.
I find it interesting that KJP doesn't give a time frame for purging- to me, it sounds like he recommends doing it all in one day. That is not realistic for me- to go through 150 toys and more books than that all in one day.
I have to chip away at it. Some days it does feel like very slow going and discouraging.
As far as having bookshelves in the kids' bedrooms- yes or no? My kids both have one, and rather than keep books on them, they fill the shelves with all manner of, ahem, interesting objects (like old toothbrushes  )
I regret now that I put one in ds's room. He cried and cried when we bought it, and now I know he'd cry and cry if we took it out.
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marcia
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 20 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 437
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 8:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
oh good so that means there will be MAJOR cleaning on the 17th of Feb. Look out around here. SIMPLICITY has come to Lent.
__________________
Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Waverley
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 12 2006
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 476
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 9:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
SeaStar wrote:
| As far as having bookshelves in the kids' bedrooms- yes or no? My kids both have one, and rather than keep books on them, they fill the shelves with all manner of, ahem, interesting objects (like old toothbrushes ) |
|
|
I don't know if it would work for your family but each of my kids has at least one shelf in their room for books along with a reading chair (for some it is beanbag or a big cushion). They also each have a shelf for non-book items/treasures. This has worked out really well. I love to go look at their book shelves to see what books they treasure.
__________________
Waverley
wife to Dh for 19 years, dd (16), dd (11), dd (8), ds (6), dd (4), dd (9-13-1996)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 9:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Practical Question Here:
As far as books and toys "out", how many do you think makes sense to have out?
And has anyone hit on a sensible rotation system? What happens when I put things out of sight is, that, me and my kids never think of them again! Honestly! I have a couple of closets stocked with various things that get used once in a blue moon, if at all.
I wonder if that means we don't really need those toys and games, except maybe to bring out when kids come over to play?
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SeaStar
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 16 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9068
|
| Posted: Jan 15 2010 at 7:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Willa wrote:
Practical Question Here:
As far as books and toys "out", how many do you think makes sense to have out?
And has anyone hit on a sensible rotation system? What happens when I put things out of sight is, that, me and my kids never think of them again! Honestly! I have a couple of closets stocked with various things that get used once in a blue moon, if at all.
I wonder if that means we don't really need those toys and games, except maybe to bring out when kids come over to play? |
|
|
That happens to us as well- I forget we even have half the stuff, and it rarely makes it out of the closet. Or- I find this a lot- when I take a toy bin out of the attic to rotate toys, the kids aren't even really interested in half the toys that have been stowed away. But if I suggest giving those away- definitely have crying. I think I might just have to start quietly giving some of those toys away.
What about the whole "play room" concept?
Do you have one? Is that an area where many toys can be left out? KJP doesn't address this issue at all.
On a lighter note, looks like I really need to declutter in my garage! 
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mimip
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Location: Florida
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1526
|
| Posted: Jan 15 2010 at 10:32am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just finished reading chapter 3 last night and wow, that was a ton of info to process. I do have a few thoughts though that I'd like to get some feedback about.
1. I think that we forget that when KJP speaks about books he is not talking to a homeschooling parent. In our house, the amount of books is really because that is my children's school as well as home. I want to have a ton of different topics out because I don't know what my children will be interested from day to day. KWIM??? If they went to school they would have a classroom library to choose books of interest but here our library counts for both. That being said we just purged a bunch around here.
2. On pg. 87 "... When a desire for the next thing is at the heart of the experience, we're involed in addiction, not a connection" He is talking about the series books here and I emphatically disagree with this point. I think for many of our children these series books are all about the characters and their adventures. Using the Magic Tree House Series, my children love to see what Jack and Annie are going to be up to next! yes, they want to fly through the books but that isn't always a bad thing. (IMHO)
3. I think we have to be really careful with this book and large families and expectations. Let me explain myself. He keeps talking about space for each child and that stuff is what is taking up the space. while I agree that we have to be really careful about the stuff overwhelming us, I think we also have to realistic about the amount of people in our families. We live in what I consider an average size house, 1400 sq. ft for the 6 of us. Realistically my children will have less "personal space" because of a few logistical reasons:
::: They share rooms, this cuts their space in half (at least)
::: They have a toddler brother who destroys and is extremely curious. There is no way we could have my girls things in baskets on the floor. We'd spend all our time cleaning up toys that the baby can't get into so we have to use those 'wall units" he speaks about.
I have to read his suggestions as just that and not go crazy and get frustrated because there is just no way around having more stuff when you have more people living in an area.
Melinda, I really don't think he would be up for a playroom but I'm only on chapter 3 
__________________
In Christ,
Mimi
Wife of 16 years to Tom, Mom of DD'00, DD'02, '04(in heaven) DS'05, DS'08 and DS '12
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
donnalynn
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 24 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 581
|
| Posted: Jan 15 2010 at 10:44am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I've been working on a total toy inventory - and it has been frightening and enlightening.
We have so much and I thought it was all *controllable* but judging how many times I went into the boys room in the weeks leading up to Christmas only to find the room covered with toys even after a good clean - I have had to face this delusion in a big way.
There is so much in these two chapters.
__________________
donnalynn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: Jan 15 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Bookswithtea wrote:
Yeah, the comment about the expensive dolls and the haves/have nots girls got to me a little bit, too. |
|
|
I thought it was kind of ironic since I have seen similar type behavior with the Waldorf stuff --some of which is, in my opinion, ridiculously expensive. The have/have not homeschoolers --those who do and don't buy the pricey crayons, silks, etc.
Of course the point being that anything can spark this kind of behavior because it's rooted in a sinful attitude not the thing itself.
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marcia
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 20 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 437
|
| Posted: Jan 15 2010 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I like his idea that only toys that take 5 minutes per developmental age to be put away by them need to be out per child. Hmm
__________________
Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
donnalynn
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 24 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 581
|
| Posted: Jan 16 2010 at 10:17am | IP Logged
|
|
|
+
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SusanMc
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 21 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 192
|
| Posted: Jan 16 2010 at 10:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I've been pondering a lot of the AG and Barbie "fixed" problem. I think it would be more accurate to say that these types of toys can encourage fixed play or materialistic stress but that no toy can guarantee that reaction. It has a lot to do with how it is presented and the individual child. I had an AG-type doll and Barbies neither of which got out of control. My addiction as a child was Smurfs .
I think when the child becomes aware that a "knock off" doll is of lesser value becaues it isn't the "right" kind, you have a problem. The child is stuck in collector/acquisition mode of our greater society. This is what can cause stress and deflect from actual play time. I think the walls of Barbie items and materials from which a child can pick or a special trip to the AG store to pick out dolls can either be a magical moment or a marketing investment in creating an unending wellspring of wants/needs for the child.
The irony is that even Waldorf items can lead to this kind of acquisitional spirit--but on the part of the PARENTS! The subtle lie is that if I have the right toys, my child will be happier/smarter/more peaceful and that morphs into I must have this, and this and this. It is why I desire and entire SET of rainbow playsilks instead of just one or two. To be honest, I would probably buy way too many wooden/natural toys if they were cheaper before I realized I was already slipping back into consumerist habits.
Does anyone else have an issue with this "collector" mentality and Montessori materials? I've just been able to grow our collection of homemade items significantly with some used materials. I have to resist the urge to say, okay now all I need is XYZ and I'll be complete and of course XYZ always grows and grows.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254
|
| Posted: Jan 16 2010 at 11:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
SusanMc wrote:
| Does anyone else have an issue with this "collector" mentality and Montessori materials? I've just been able to grow our collection of homemade items significantly with some used materials. I have to resist the urge to say, okay now all I need is XYZ and I'll be complete and of course XYZ always grows and grows. |
|
|
I think I have had definite moments like this in regards to Montessori materials. Everything else I seem to be ok with, but having gone through the AMI training at both primary and elementary levels, I feel like the *only* way to make it all worth it for homeschooling my children is to have every material.
But as I'm making the materials (with ZERO budget - only materials on hand or what I can cull from other families' cast-offs), I'm finding that my son responds better to higher quality fewer items, as long as the main teaching is there. We don't need all the sets of nomenclature/classification booklets and cards and definitions that the typical Montessori classroom has - if we have a handful to create the idea, then he has been creating his own on other subjects.
And 8 out of 10 times, he keeps it for a time and then decides to recycle it - he just uses it for his work, internalizes it and continues to build on it, not needing the material anymore (you know, the way Montessori *supposed* to work ).
__________________
Garden of Francis
HS Elementary Montessori Training
Montessori Nuggets
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Jan 16 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
SeaStar wrote:
| On a lighter note, looks like I really need to declutter in my garage! |
|
|
Melinda, my boys were absolutely fascinated with your "clutter"!
Quote:
| The irony is that even Waldorf items can lead to this kind of acquisitional spirit--but on the part of the PARENTS! |
|
|
So true -- in fact, I would guess that what KJP is trying gently to say here is that acquisition is in general a parental problem. A very little child at his first Christmas is more interested in the paper and box than the toy itself. Rather than nurturing that simplicity, we tend to train them as consumers even of worthwhile stuff. Or at least, I know I've done that -- not meaning to. KJP talks about the girl who cherishes her stuffed elephant -- so then the parents and relatives start an elephant collection for her.
I think what's hard for us as Americans is that birthdays and Christmases come so often, and we are sort of "supposed to" buy toys for our kids. But kids don't really NEED that many toys. So inadvertently we get into the habit of always looking for new things -- either better quality, or just more glitzy and flashy.
I liked Donnalyn's point about handmade. My 7 year old's favorite action figures are a set of colored Tumbling Tower wooden bricks. He makes them battle and have all sorts of adventures. My delayed 10 year old made himself a toy by attaching an old stroller double wheel onto a stick. He rolls it around all over the place and it's been one of his favorite things for years.
The Catholic Treasure Box magazines have a section devoted to "toys you can make yourself".
KJP made an interesting point about the outdoors that reminded me of something Charlotte Mason said. He said that kids used to devise their toys out of things they found outside and that these types of "natural" collections and play props are ideal because they are recyclable, they don't burden you with "stuff" and they don't cost anything.
He also said that it wasn't until the mid-fifties that toys became such a huge part of childhood -- basically, when childrens' TV became more accessible. Toys are like "icons" of whatever is fashionable, a lot of times. Before that, kids got toys that helped them to DO things, he said.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Jan 16 2010 at 1:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
donnalynn wrote:
When Hannah and Katie were 9 and 7 - we got them both American Girl historical dolls and I remember talking about American Girl dolls with a Waldorf homeschool mother's group. Just about all of us (including a former Waldorf teacher)agreed that they were a good addition for our girls especially after the age of 7.
And I remember that my dd's circle of friends (not Waldorf families) either had dolls or were getting them - so my experience was not one of feeling badgered into getting the dolls but thinking that it would great for them to expand their doll play, explore different historical era's, have doll parties with friends, direct the grandparent spending for gifts etc..
I think that is one difference - dh and I decided to get them for the girls after a lot of thought. I think KJP is pointing out that toy purchases may be regretted later if there is no real thought behind them - whether you've given into pestering or felt you needed to keep up with the Joneses next door.
A lot of Waldorf items are expensive - but I think there are good reasons for most of the expense - better quality, higher cost of natural materials and they are usually imported from others places besides China or they are made by small cottage industries.
Dh and I lived on very little for a very long time - when there were things we couldn't afford - we made them ourselves. We would look through catalogs and figure how we could make the things we could not afford. And believe me, we didn't have these skills but when there's a will - there really is a way!!
But an American Girl Doll is not something anyone could decide to make - you could find a similar version to save money but in general I think that is a big downside to the whole "fixed" kind of toy. They are indeed fixed - stamped out in some factor away from any real human touch. On the otherhand you can have a room full of people following the exact same instructions for making a doll figure but they will all turn out differently - sometimes amazingly so. Even something handknit will have slight variables depending on how the person holds their needles or twists the thread as opposed to machine knitted items.
There was so much *love* I put into the toys I have made for my children. I think that is the secret that the Waldorf "have-nots" (and others who make things for their children) know. And I am surprised KJP does not mention this. I think the toys that we all love the most - the gifts that have been received and given with the most love are those we have made ourselves.
And for those things that dh and I could not make - we have always had to carefully decide where to spend our money. I find it is actually harder to feel satisified with my Christmas shopping in more recent years, now that we have a little more cash on hand for Christmas. Because we can afford a bit more there such a temptation to just get "one more" item. I pared things down again this past Christmas and felt much better overall. And for next Christmas I hope to make at least one handmade item for each of my children. I miss that so much.
|
|
|
This is really inspiring, and I never thought about handmade toys this way before, but grandpa made some wooden trucks and a train table for my little boys this year, and a fairy tree house for my girls this year. They are so much more meaningful than if we had bought them. I think the girls are even treating the fairy tree differently...being more careful with it, because they are aware that each piece was hand crafted with love by Grandpa.
About AG: I keep thinking about our visit to the AG store last summer, for the first time. My girls were so excited. But when we got there, it was a completely overwhelming and overstimulating experience. Even though they had planned for months what their one purchase would be (birthday money), seeing everything lined up like that in stacks of boxes confused them. One started crying because she just didn't know what to do...and she was 9 at the time. I had to squat down and look into her eyes and get her to focus on me to bring her back to reality and remind her of what it was she had wanted from the beginning.
We won't make another trek to the AG Store.
I think dolls, whether their faces are fixed or not, are still open ended play toys, for the mostpart. But when girls get into collecting all the *stuff* that goes along with it, it becomes something else altogether. It becomes an acquisition toy, where the little girl plays less with the doll itself and dreams more about the next piece of furniture she wants. She is being trained in consumerism.  I don't think its AG dolls, per se. I think its any toy that we allow to become more about the collection and less about the actual time spent playing with it.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Simp. Parent. Ch 2 & 3: the environment
