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Bookswithtea
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I just read this about books:
"Does it tell an unfolding story or is it all over the place? Like a toy that does too much, some books are very fragmented, graphically intense and lacking cohesion. Is the book designed to engage the child's imagination or to stimlate?"
Do you think he's referring here to Usborne and DK style books? What do you think about these books? Even Magic School Bus books both have text and science bites all over the page, making it hard to decide what to read first.
By way of comparison, do you think a story such as as Holling C. Holling book offers enough story to counter the amount of knowledge the author is attempting to transmit to the reader? Is it still "too much?"
What do you think?
Also, I was struck by the "I'm on the 23rd Magic Treehouse book" comment. I have tried and tried to help my kids to not be like this, but it feels inevitable to me. Its like they are ravenous for the next book. I am not sure this is really the best, as it does not invite depth all that much. Is there anything we can do to combat consumption of books in this manner?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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stellamaris
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doris wrote:
I have just received this book and am reading like a parched man finding an oasis...
Quick question. What about birthdays, Christmas? I haven't done the radical decluttering yet, but I can just see that each time there's a gift-receiving opportunity, the clutter creeps in again... And it's presumably harder to get rid of the stuff if the place is otherwise decluttered and the gift is a recent memory... |
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You said it! How to have these events without gifts??? Once you start the gift/toy thing, you are sunk!
(My 14 dd, reading over my shoulder, just said, "Why are you and other parents so anti-gift?" I replied, sweetly  ,"Go away!" If only I could tell all the creeping clutter to "go away"!  )
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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stellamaris
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I just read this about books:
"Does it tell an unfolding story or is it all over the place? Like a toy that does too much, some books are very fragmented, graphically intense and lacking cohesion. Is the book designed to engage the child's imagination or to stimlate?"
Do you think he's referring here to Usborne and DK style books? What do you think about these books? Even Magic School Bus books both have text and science bites all over the page, making it hard to decide what to read first.
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Very good point, Books! I'd like to post on this, but have to turn the computer over to my dd..I'll post tomorrow...sleepy tight!
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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Nina Murphy
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doris wrote:
I have just received this book and am reading like a parched man finding an oasis...
Quick question. What about birthdays, Christmas? I haven't done the radical decluttering yet, but I can just see that each time there's a gift-receiving opportunity, the clutter creeps in again... And it's presumably harder to get rid of the stuff if the place is otherwise decluttered and the gift is a recent memory... |
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I only have so much space. We must give away the amount of "old" to equal the new that is coming in. It is a good way to discern what is really used, working, helpful, etc. to weed it out once or twice a year....
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I just read this about books:
"Does it tell an unfolding story or is it all over the place? Like a toy that does too much, some books are very fragmented, graphically intense and lacking cohesion. Is the book designed to engage the child's imagination or to stimlate?"
Do you think he's referring here to Usborne and DK style books? What do you think about these books? Even Magic School Bus books both have text and science bites all over the page, making it hard to decide what to read first.
By way of comparison, do you think a story such as as Holling C. Holling book offers enough story to counter the amount of knowledge the author is attempting to transmit to the reader? Is it still "too much?"
What do you think?
Also, I was struck by the "I'm on the 23rd Magic Treehouse book" comment. I have tried and tried to help my kids to not be like this, but it feels inevitable to me. Its like they are ravenous for the next book. I am not sure this is really the best, as it does not invite depth all that much. Is there anything we can do to combat consumption of books in this manner? |
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Interesting, because I ended up giving away all of my Holling C. Holling books, but can't get rid of my Usborne. My kids do love "reading" certain Usborne books over and over, like Mysteries and Marvels of Nature and Time Traveler.
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~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Marcia
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maybe that was one thing I did well. I didn't allow Magic Tree House books or others of that kind. They are all the same line over and over...no new ideas just different names of characters....
I would think Nancy Drew would fall into that category.
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Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
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SuzanneG
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Also, I was struck by the "I'm on the 23rd Magic Treehouse book" comment. I have tried and tried to help my kids to not be like this, but it feels inevitable to me. Its like they are ravenous for the next book. I am not sure this is really the best, as it does not invite depth all that much. Is there anything we can do to combat consumption of books in this manner? |
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This fits very well with what Miss Mason said about "savoring" a book:
Charlotte Mason wrote:
| "We hear of 'three books a week' as a usual thing and rather a matter of pride. But this, again, comes of our tendency to depreciate knowledge, and to lose sight of its alimentary character. If we perceive that knowledge, like bread, is necessary food, we see also that it must be taken in set portions, fitly combined, duly served, and at due intervals, in order to induce the digestive processes without which, knowledge, like meat, gives us labour rather than strength." (vol. 5, p. 382.) |
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And this in Vol. 6, Towards a Philophy of Education:
Charlotte Mason wrote:
| "In the first place we all know that desultory reading is delightful and incidentally profitable but is not education whose concern is knowledge. That is, the mind of the desultory reader only rarely makes the act of appropriation which is necessary before the matter we read becomes personal knowledge. We must read in order to know or we do not know by reading." |
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And, this one:
Charlotte Mason wrote:
| He should be trained from the first to think that one reading of any lesson is enough to enable him to narrate what he has read, and will thus get the habit of slow, careful reading, intelligent even when it is silent, because he reads with an eye to the full meaning of every clause." |
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The question is asked at Ambleside: Ambleside Online doesn't have as many books as some programs, is this to emphasize quality over quantity? Is there an advantage to reading a book at a leisurely pace? The answer is here at their website and is worth reading.
I love seeing the benefits of this with my girls even at the early-mid elementary level. After that first year of "devouring books" in order to become proficient readers, I've made an effort to really slow them down....encouraging more challenging reading, 1 chapter a week, spread out over the 12-week-term or sometimes even a year. They are reading 5 or 6 books at a time, but only 1 chapter/week. Same with the read alouds. It forces us to recall, talk, "chew" and digest.
There are, of course, read alouds that everyone just begs for, and we go for it, cuz they are so fun! But, it's for that purpose....FUN...and family togetherness! It's not for the same "digestive" / knowlege / learning / living / loving / "becoming"--- purpose.
Karen Glass (Ambleside) wrote:
| Give this method a chance. Experiment this way--choose two books, and allow your child to read one at the rate of a chapter a day, and the other at no more than a chapter or two per week, taking at least 2 months to finish the book. At the end of the two months, ask for narrations from both books. You will get much more detailed and complete narrations from the book that was read slowly than the one that was read quickly several weeks ago. By letting your child "live" with the book longer, you are giving him a chance to "digest" what the book has to offer. |
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::Melissa Wiley had a blog post about this same subject: About All That Reading
::And, Higher Up and Further In has a good compilation: Quoting Miss Mason: Habit of Reading
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Suzanne in ID
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SeaStar
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doris wrote:
I have just received this book and am reading like a parched man finding an oasis...
Quick question. What about birthdays, Christmas? I haven't done the radical decluttering yet, but I can just see that each time there's a gift-receiving opportunity, the clutter creeps in again... And it's presumably harder to get rid of the stuff if the place is otherwise decluttered and the gift is a recent memory... |
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I was just wondering about this tonight- thinking how my dc really need *nothing*. They have so many toys they don't even play with half of them, and when they are bored they rarely reach for a toy. So where does this leave us for birthdays and Christmas?
I'm afraid they have been "ruined" as far as expecting gifts. At every holiday/birthday the gifts roll in from extended family. I suppose that means I have to be extra diligent as far as weeding out the old.
And what do you do with children who are super attached to items?
My ds can not even bear to give up an old toothbrush. Changing toaster ovens made him cry for a week. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that her dc remember missing items and hold a grudge. We have been through that here, too.
Maybe there just has to be a detox period where everyone is unhappy until they get used to less all around? KJP states that many children do not even notice that more than half their toys are gone. He hasn't been to
my house  !
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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LeeAnn
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re: Incoming Gifts
I put out a letter this year about a month before Christmas stating that we weren't going to exchange gifts and please only buy one gift or a shared gift for the children. This sort of worked. Some relatives huffed about it, some still gave too much, some just right, others got in the spirit and gave us movie tickets.
It's harder to do for birthdays...but generally we've solved this by limiting severely the number of kids invited if it's a "friend party" (two or three) and mostly only doing family birthday parties. And just accept that inevitably your child will recieve some junk--and some nice things too. :) Some people try to send out no-gift invitations, but generally these are seen as rude, since it presumes you will be giving a gift to begin with (never presume!) and maybe saying that you think other people have poor taste in gifts (no thanks to your junk, people!). I prefer to send potentially rude letters to my relatives. LOL
Re: types of books--I doubt KJP had specific publishers in mind. Not all of Usborne's books are super busy visually and I think also he is still mostly thinking of younger children. For instance the illustrations in an elaborate Demi book (Mary or Mother Teresa) are better appreciated by an older child or adult. Small children prefer simpler illustrations usually.
But there is a trend I don't like which are those really busy factoid type books--my girls have a couple--like Fairyopolis and How to be a Princess--that are super busy with no extended narrative and little actual content. Again, these are mainly for older kids (the script is too tiny and ornate for little ones to read) but these sort of fit my parameters of a "nice junk book."
Back to toy clutter/gifts: I find it easier to get rid of new things some times. I let the kids play with them a few days or a couple weeks and usually the limited play type toys are played with intensely once and then mostly forgotten. The longer the toys stay around the more the child bonds with it and see it as his possession. My son got a plastic tool kit and a push-go train which he loved on Christmas Day and hasn't touched since. I will probably put them up in the closet, maybe pull them out once more on a day I need a distraction for him, and then in a few months pass them on to Goodwill.
re: kids reluctant to give up stuff
When all else fails, I remind the kids that the more they get rid of, the easier it will be for them to clean their rooms!
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my four children are 17, 15, 11 & 8 - all now attend public school - we read many 4Real recommended books at home
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Mackfam
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SeaStar wrote:
And what do you do with children who are super attached to items?
My ds can not even bear to give up an old toothbrush. Changing toaster ovens made him cry for a week. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that her dc remember missing items and hold a grudge. We have been through that here, too.
Maybe there just has to be a detox period where everyone is unhappy until they get used to less all around? KJP states that many children do not even notice that more than half their toys are gone. He hasn't been to
my house ! |
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I think it was Barbara that mentioned her children's attachment to certain things? I have a child that was/sometimes still is very attached to an emotion attached to a thing. I noticed it early and it took me a while to learn how to help him detach. I thought I'd add some practicals I've learned.
** Offer the child some ownership/control over the detachment. I go through this child's spaces with him regularly with a fine tooth comb. There is a finite space (a small bin with a lid) that is allowed to contain "treasures". Once it is full, treasures have to be purged to make room for new ones. It wasn't painful at first, but as years have passed, he has become more discriminating and thoughtful as to what he keeps. It's been interesting to observe the growth (which has taken years).
** Instead of one, sudden, painful purge consider lining everything up along a hallway wall, or in the bedroom along the walls...and allow the children to choose a set number of toys to keep out. I allow my boys (who share a room) to have 4 toys out at a time. A toy might be the big dump truck...or it might be the bin of legos. I consider one toy to be the logical **set** of toys....so the marble run set is one toy. Does that make sense? Lining toys up along a wall is a good way to see how much you've got and it's a good way to collect pieces and sort them with the right toys. Instead of saying goodbye to the remaining toys not chosen, find a big closet, garage, extra room, space in the chimney?, place to store them. Whatever you do, wherever you put them - LOCK THEM AWAY! Allow the children to exchange toys for toys. My rule is that an exchange cannot be made unless the 4 toys are clean and put away so I can make sure that all pieces are with the right toys before an exchange.
** Once the children are used to living with less out, begin to gently introduce the idea of giving toys to other children.
With my child that was highly attached to things, I also found that he was my child who was extremely sensitive to change, needed reassurances of security and safety, and his environment and the things that accompanied him in it, were integral to him feeling secure. I didn't want to yank that rug out from under him quickly...I wanted to gently introduce him to a healthier detachment and teach him how to discern what he kept.
Just thought I'd jump in with a quick practical - I don't know if it is helpful, or even the right approach. I've just been reading along and following all of your thoughts.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mackfam
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I meant to add that I've gotten in the habit of quickly purging trashy toys that were given for Christmas in February. I purge the kids rooms in Advent and Lent. The Lent purge is to remove any trashy stuff that made it in over Christmas. It's a couple of months to live with some of these items, but it allows us to offer the giver of that gift the joy they receive in giving a gift (even if we already have 2000 character pencils with cheap erasers), and time to write a thank you note. Then, we send it on its way. Generally these gifts don't offer lasting play value, so by Feb. the kids are ready to see them move on anyway. Ok...done side tracking convo!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SuzanneG
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SeaStar wrote:
And what do you do with children who are super attached to items?
My ds can not even bear to give up an old toothbrush. Changing toaster ovens made him cry for a week. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that her dc remember missing items and hold a grudge. We have been through that here, too. |
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Jen already gave some practical ideas about this above, but she also expands upon what she mentioned above (if you can imagine  ) on this thread from last summer: Would you clean out your child's room....
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Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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Willa
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SeaStar wrote:
My ds can not even bear to give up an old toothbrush. Changing toaster ovens made him cry for a week. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that her dc remember missing items and hold a grudge. We have been through that here, too. |
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My second-born was such a packrat as a child -- he was a lot like you describe. This sounds horribly crass, but I gave the kids a small recycling incentive -- something like a penny or nickel for each thing they could make themselves part with. We usually decluttered during Advent and Lent, emphasizing the idea of getting rid of the old things in order to make the room look new and nice and clean again, with an analogy to our souls which can get cluttered and shabby. I had a hard time making him even let go of old scraps of paper, so even for those little junky things I would hand over the coins.
Anyway, there wasn't a miraculous overnight change, but we kept doing this (as they got older we dropped the coin incentive) and now my young man still declutters every Advent and Lent and gives away his old things to his siblings (which doesn't solve MY clutter problem, but there you go  ).
With us, the small coins made a concrete "trade" which seemed to work as incentive to part with things, and doing the project in penitential seasons seemed to give it more of a spiritual aspect. Worked for us.
My younger set (the now 7 and 10 year old) have never had very many of their OWN toys -- by the time they were born we already had pretty much all the basics, and so I tend to buy them group toys for the most part, just one or two things per Christmas. We keep them in a communal part of the house and they are shared -- they just have a couple of special things that are exclusively theirs, like a favorite stuffed animal or two.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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MNMommy
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stellamaris wrote:
doris wrote:
| Quick question. What about birthdays, Christmas? I haven't done the radical decluttering yet, but I can just see that each time there's a gift-receiving opportunity, the clutter creeps in again... And it's presumably harder to get rid of the stuff if the place is otherwise decluttered and the gift is a recent memory... |
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You said it! How to have these events without gifts??? Once you start the gift/toy thing, you are sunk!
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I finally have the book too! I was pondering this same concept, and I decided that I need to approach gift giving differently. When choosing things for the dc, I think I need to look more to developing skills and handicrafts - tools, gardening supplies, knitting, outdoor active toys, or even consumable art supplies. My 5yo received four pieces of rope for his last birthday, and he LOVED the gift and he asked more rope for his 6th birthday. The Christmas before he received a real toolbox with real tools. He was in so excited. Those were great presents. Why didn't I put those types of things on their Christmas lists this year???
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Jennifer
Tired mom to - 10yo dd, 7yo ds, 6yo ds, 4yo dd, 2yo ds
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MNMommy
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Also, I was struck by the "I'm on the 23rd Magic Treehouse book" comment. |
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That quote struck me as well. Yesterday I went through our small collection of picture books and discovered that the favorites are mostly FIAR titles that we have rowed.
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Jennifer
Tired mom to - 10yo dd, 7yo ds, 6yo ds, 4yo dd, 2yo ds
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Bookswithtea
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Regarding books: I've been thinking on this all night.
Nina, my kids two favorite Usborne books are exactly the same ones you mentioned! That and ds's beloved The Way Things Work.
Do you think there is a difference between using an Usborne or DK style book as a spine instead of a text for school, versus using it as a bedtime story? He seems to assume that the books in a child's room are not school related at all. Our homes as homeschoolers are going to be different than his overall vision. I still think a home library has a place in a homeschool environment. I'm definitely being pushed to consider what should be in it, though. 
I started ch. 4 and he mentioned an age range for all of this (children 10 and under) so I've got that plugged into my head now as the basic age he's focusing on.
Which got me thinking, Usborne/DK style books can be used for older children for years. But books like Magic School Bus are really aimed for approximately an 8 yr old child...still within the age range for avoiding books with busy text. Maybe books like MSB aren't such a good idea?
Fwiw, I do think he has certain brands in mind. He mentions a certain doll company with very expensive dolls with accessories, aimed for 8 yr olds (likely American Girl). He also talks about what toys to include in a child's room and it seems pretty obvious to me that he's imagining catalogues/sites like Magic Cabin (which is Waldorf inspired) and Montessori catalogues. He mentions silks and scarves, wooden toys, real gardening and kitchen tools, etc. All the best of the best in terms of quality toys. With the exception of Legos/Knex, none of this stuff can be had at the local Stuff Mart.
So if he wasn't talking about Usborne/DK/Kingfisher style books, what kinds of books might he have been referring to? And do you think that if we use one of these heavy-on-the-content/lacking cohesion style books for school, is it still less than the best for a child? Would it be better to skip them altogether?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Paula in MN
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SeaStar wrote:
| I think it is interesting that in small quantities something like books become a treat, but in mass quantities on the shelves they are often ignored. |
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I've been reading through all the comments on the book, and this is the one comment that really struck a chord with me. I love our new bookshelves. (right, Jennifer?) I wanted them for years, and it's a wonderful thing to have all the books in one place. BUT....when we had small shelves in each room, everyone had their favorite books on them and the kids were always reading. Now? Not so much.
I'm really enjoying this book and the discussions. My kids are not enjoying the decluttering. 
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Paula
A Catholic Harvest
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JSchaaf
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Books With Tea wrote:
Fwiw, I do think he has certain brands in mind. He mentions a certain doll company with very expensive dolls with accessories, aimed for 8 yr olds (likely American Girl). He also talks about what toys to include in a child's room and it seems pretty obvious to me that he's imagining catalogues/sites like Magic Cabin (which is Waldorf inspired) and Montessori catalogues. He mentions silks and scarves, wooden toys, real gardening and kitchen tools, etc. All the best of the best in terms of quality toys. With the exception of Legos/Knex, none of this stuff can be had at the local Stuff Mart.
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I had to take issue with KJP calling both Barbie and AG dolls "fixed". Barbie, yes. But we have four AG historical dolls and they are rarely used as their original character. Just last night my girls were evacuating the AG dolls over the Berlin Wall. I definitely think there is a gray area for toys. We used to have Waldorf baby dolls, but they were never played with.
Jennifer
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LeeAnn
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Jennifer, I could say the same thing about Barbie, really. My older two had them when they were little, now they have the AG dolls (rarely played with in part because they are too precious, too many pieces to pick up, etc).
My 6yo has both Barbies and baby dolls--she mostly likes the Bitty Baby dolls although she has a waldorf baby too--but she plays pretty open-ended games with her barbies as well--however that might be because she only has three or four generic barbie dolls, rather than the vet barbie, teacher barbie, etc.
She still would say the waldorf baby is her favorite though because it is soft and cuddly. On the rare occasion that she sleeps with a toy it is that waldorf baby.
I am appalled to remember how much Barbie stuff my older girls had though! Now that I have become a toy declutter-er I have a rule: it all has to fit in the one plastic snap-lid box (about the size of a briefcase).
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| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 12:07pm | IP Logged
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I just started reading the book and am really enjoying it. It is interesting how he points out how in the past fifty years children's play is focused more on things than on activities. Focused on the toys. Things we need to buy. Growing up pretty poor - we had few toys. We would make elaborate games with whatever was around the house - sheets, rope, paper, pencils, etc. We always had lots of fun.
Cutting back on books is so counter to my usual impulses. Books = good. More books = better. But, I have had to cut back with our frequent military moves and the threat of going over the weight limit and having to pay out of pocket to move "twaddle." If I can get it at the library - I don't buy unless it is something I am going to use very frequently.
Now - I hope there is not a chapter on decluttering fabric or yarn......
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Mary
Army wife and Crusermom to 8 wonderful children!
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Simp. Parent. Ch 2 & 3: the environment
