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DominaCaeli
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donnalynn wrote:
This really does not fit my overall picture of "Waldorf families" and considering that KJP has really not used a lot of "Waldorf speak" thus far, I think it is unfair to make an assumption about his targeted audience.
I think he is talking to modern parents - I think to some degree we all struggle with how much is enough - with that line between enough and too much. |
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Certainly, his audience goes beyond Waldorf families, affluent families, or smaller families. But I think it's fine to consider his more specific audience because it is precisely in doing so that we can effectively place his suggestions in a useful context for our own homes. But I definitely agree with you that we are all liable to struggle with "how much"--at least, I know I do! 
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LeeAnn
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Donna, this is just my personal observation of people I know who currently have children in Waldorf schools. I am perfectly willing to believe that it may not be so everywhere. Please accept my apologies for making a general assumption.
My main point was that I would not expect the author to be addressing pursuing simplicity as a path to holiness (something which I think most 4Real Forum readers are interested in) because of the author's likely audience. I could be surprised though! I haven't finished the book yet!  I am rationing it like fine cheese.
ETA: and yes, I am not implying that Catholics aren't just as susceptible to materialism and consumerism, clutter, etc as everyone else...yep, we often are...or why would we bother with the book??!
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Sarah M
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Connections wrote:
How would you apply the "four pillars of too much" to homeschooling methods?
Does it apply?
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Too much stuff-- when we get right down to it, we don't need a whole lot of "stuff" to homeschool well. A library card, some paper, writing utencils, a few art supplies. My hunch is that a really good teacher can guide her students with a minimum of "stuff". I think so many of us get caught up in the clutter of curriculum- specific manipulatives, tools, teaching aides-- especially materials that have only one purpose. This is not to say that all stuff is bad, of course, but I wonder how often we think that we could homeschool better if we had a bigger homeschooling budget. Our homeschools will not become better just because we have more stuff. Quality education, imho, has far more to do with the state of the teacher than with the quanitity (or even quality) of materials.
Too many choices- we are very blessed to live in a time when homeschooling choices are bountiful. But anyone who's been to a big homeschool convention knows how too many curriculum choices can cloud our judgement. I wonder how many of us use a math curriculum (and I'm including myself here, for sure) only half-heartedly, because we are wondering if one of the other math programs would be a better fit. Instead of just being happy with what we have and shaping it to fit our family, we overthink the hundred other choices and don't ever feel quite content with anything.
Too much information- the first thing that comes to mind in regards to this is the sheer quanitity of information that we offer to our children on any given subject. I'm talking about the huge pile of books we brought home from the library on Ancient Egypt or The Civil War or the life cycle of a caterpillar. Instead of choosing one or two well-written books to savor and really get to know, we hop around from book to book to book- not really forming a relationship with any one of them.
Too fast- Short lessons that move from one subject to another at a rapid pace (Math from 9-9:20, Foreign language from 9:20-9:35, Literature from 9:35-9:50, History from 9:50-10:00)-- it seems so very fast for a child to really make connections and develop a relationship with what their learning. I wonder if we move too fast when we try to cram so very many subjects into every single week. Perhaps we could simplify by spending larger chunks of time delving deeper into fewer subjects.
Just my thoughts, off the cuff. Homeschooling is the area that I was allowing to get too "cluttered" and all around "too much". This year it's been a breath of fresh air to simplify, slow down, and savor. We're enjoying it all so much more.
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Connections
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And another question...
How do you put into practice the four pillars for families with multiple age groups?
How do you make sure your littles are not going "too fast" and getting "too much information" when they are surrounded by siblings who are moving faster and getting more information because they are older?
Thoughts?
____________
Tracey
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Connections wrote:
And another question...
How do you put into practice the four pillars for families with multiple age groups?
How do you make sure your littles are not going "too fast" and getting "too much information" when they are surrounded by siblings who are moving faster and getting more information because they are older?
Thoughts?
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Tracey |
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A very good question! I am hoping he gets into more about teens and larger families later in the book. I took a look at the index and there are a few sections about teens.
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Bookswithtea
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Sarah M wrote:
Too many choices- we are very blessed to live in a time when homeschooling choices are bountiful. But anyone who's been to a big homeschool convention knows how too many curriculum choices can cloud our judgement. I wonder how many of us use a math curriculum (and I'm including myself here, for sure) only half-heartedly, because we are wondering if one of the other math programs would be a better fit. Instead of just being happy with what we have and shaping it to fit our family, we overthink the hundred other choices and don't ever feel quite content with anything.
Too much information- the first thing that comes to mind in regards to this is the sheer quanitity of information that we offer to our children on any given subject. I'm talking about the huge pile of books we brought home from the library on Ancient Egypt or The Civil War or the life cycle of a caterpillar. Instead of choosing one or two well-written books to savor and really get to know, we hop around from book to book to book- not really forming a relationship with any one of them. |
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Oh man, this *really* resonates with me. Part of brain clutter for me is the information overload of too many curriculum choices. I already throw out most homeschool catalogues without even looking. But somehow, ideas still seem to find me.  I think in addition to information overload, the abundance of hs blogs (no disrespect meant here...just using it as an example) and forums means that moms who are already trying sooooooooo hard have in front of their eyes and minds a virtual overload of families whom they think are doing it better than they are. Everyone looks best in print, kwim? 
I live in a rural area where a lot of hs moms don't check their email regularly, let alone get on the net beyond maybe Amazon a few times a year. DSL and cable connections are not here for everyone, so many are still on dial up.  They are more likely to call in their orders or send a check. I love spending time with these old time homeschoolers. It doesn't seem to even occur to them that there might be a better book or program out there for any individual subject. They just keep moving forward, bit by bit. I am sometimes envious that information overload is not really a factor in their lives.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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SuzanneG
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Keep in mind that any discussion of this book should remain focused on the original topic surrounding the practicals of Simplicity Parenting and how it relates to us as Catholic home educating parents . Practical ideas and conclusions can be drawn from this author's writing, and elevated with Church teaching. Discussion of Waldorf philosophy is out of place here as this is the Book Club Forum.
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hylabrook1
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As to the over-choice in homeschooling materials, I need to remind myself that part of the reason the catalogues and the pitches at Homeschool Conferences sound so good is because they are being marketed.. The marketing tools are designed to get you excited and desirous of the product. When it comes down to actually using the materials, though, it involves work and patience and stretching at least a bit beyond your comfort zone; that's what the growth that comes with learning is really about. Now if I just keep re-reading these words.....
Peace,
Nancy
ETA - this is pretty much true for everything else, too, not just homeschooling materials. But it is so hard to live in society while remaining detached enough to think through what it is we need or even what we really want, instead of believing what the ads tell us.
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DominaCaeli
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Sarah M wrote:
| Too much information- the first thing that comes to mind in regards to this is the sheer quanitity of information that we offer to our children on any given subject. I'm talking about the huge pile of books we brought home from the library on Ancient Egypt or The Civil War or the life cycle of a caterpillar. Instead of choosing one or two well-written books to savor and really get to know, we hop around from book to book to book- not really forming a relationship with any one of them. |
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I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately too, Sarah. As I requested several dozen Christmas-related books from the library, I looked through them and decided to only present my children with what I considered to be the very best of the bunch next time around (I only do books that are religious in nature as it is--but there are still so many!). I'm making a short list and sticking to it next year! We will still visit other books briefly, I imagine, but I intend to choose just a few to really dig into.
Sarah M wrote:
| Too fast- Short lessons that move from one subject to another at a rapid pace (Math from 9-9:20, Foreign language from 9:20-9:35, Literature from 9:35-9:50, History from 9:50-10:00)-- it seems so very fast for a child to really make connections and develop a relationship with what their learning. I wonder if we move too fast when we try to cram so very many subjects into every single week. Perhaps we could simplify by spending larger chunks of time delving deeper into fewer subjects. |
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I'm thinking about how this squares with Charlotte Mason's short-lessons approach. She definitely suggests moving from subject to subject just as you described, covering quite a few subjects over the course of the week. Her intent is to sharpen concentration by only requiring a short burst of attention on the part of the student, thereby encouraging his best work. She then balances the quickness of the lessons, I think, by long periods of free mental time that allow the child to make connections among subjects and readings. But what might KJP say about the short lessons Mason suggests? I'm curious as to what others of you think.
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Celeste
Joyous Lessons
Mommy to six: three boys (8, 4, newborn) and four girls (7, 5, 2, and 1)
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Connections
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Quote:
| Too much information- the first thing that comes to mind in regards to this is the sheer quanitity of information that we offer to our children on any given subject. I'm talking about the huge pile of books we brought home from the library on Ancient Egypt or The Civil War or the life cycle of a caterpillar. Instead of choosing one or two well-written books to savor and really get to know, we hop around from book to book to book- not really forming a relationship with any one of them. |
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I appreciate your points, Sarah. With regard to the "too much information" prong, I want to agree (and in my heart I do) but taking this approach does create a different stress for me- selecting the RIGHT materials and books, etc. How do we counter that?
Any and all ideas welcome!
_____________
Tracey
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Bookswithtea
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Connections wrote:
I appreciate your points, Sarah. With regard to the "too much information" prong, I want to agree (and in my heart I do) but taking this approach does create a different stress for me- selecting the RIGHT materials and books, etc. How do we counter that? |
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In some subjects, I have found some materials I return to, year after year. I have a groove that is comfortable for me. I don't tend to look at curriculum to replace those things. Its the areas where I am still wrestling where I find myself endlessly searching for something that will fit better. I've been musing lately on what the simplicity solution would be, instead of information overload. Maybe I need to acknowledge that these subjects will always be difficult for our family, and settle on something that is "good enough", instead of "the perfect choice."
One thing I'm doing now is looking at what makes the other programs work well for us. If I can find similar elements, then maybe there is something on my shelf right now that can be used similarly to the programs I already own and like? For example, I use a series of spines for late elem.-junior high history along with living books tailored to the reading level of that child. Its all on my shelf. I just keep recycling it. Its not my ideal. But it works with the rhythm of my own home. So for science (as if y'all didn't know already  ), maybe I need to find a series of spines that is bearable and then add in some living books I already own. I have been resistant to this because I dislike science texts even more than I dislike history texts. But its just not my gifting.
Another thought I've been pondering is that the FIAR model of rowing a book a week works incredibly well here. But every time I see a "unit" that uses lots of books I start to salivate at how beautiful it is and want to try it instead. Invariably, its a failure. Not because of the unit, but because it just doesn't play to my own strengths and temperament and the rhythm we work with in our home. So now I'm thinking that programs I really love that are more unit based need to be easily modifiable to a book a week for it to work for us.
Its not the programs per se, its how they are used. Which I think goes alone with what Sarah was saying about 'too much', that its not really about the materials and how many books we have, but in finding the rhythm and system of learning that works well in our individual homes.
Anyway, that's what I've been thinking lately...but I'm not sure its the right approach, simplicity wise. Is there another way to use the principles of simplicity, avoiding too much/too soon/too fast/too much information, to find ways of learning that are reliable for our own families?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Willa
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DominaCaeli wrote:
Sarah M wrote:
| Too fast- Short lessons that move from one subject to another at a rapid pace (Math from 9-9:20, Foreign language from 9:20-9:35, Literature from 9:35-9:50, History from 9:50-10:00)-- it seems so very fast for a child to really make connections and develop a relationship with what their learning. I wonder if we move too fast when we try to cram so very many subjects into every single week. Perhaps we could simplify by spending larger chunks of time delving deeper into fewer subjects. |
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I'm thinking about how this squares with Charlotte Mason's short-lessons approach. She definitely suggests moving from subject to subject just as you described, covering quite a few subjects over the course of the week. Her intent is to sharpen concentration by only requiring a short burst of attention on the part of the student, thereby encouraging his best work. She then balances the quickness of the lessons, I think, by long periods of free mental time that allow the child to make connections among subjects and readings. But what might KJP say about the short lessons Mason suggests? I'm curious as to what others of you think. |
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I think that "too fast" in talking about homeschooling could also mean accelerating -- trying to get academics in at earlier and earlier ages, or make children do things that aren't developmentally appropriate. Obviously, families will differ in their pace and method but the point is that if the child shows a lot of stress reactions it might be a warning sign.
I also think that "too fast" could mean covering the material too fast -- a typical textbook often skims through material at a very rapid pace. Charlotte Mason's method was an antidote to this.
Also, I think Sarah was partly talking about the kind of thing Gatto talks about as a problem with schools -- never letting children settle down into a subject. -- jerking them from one thing to another as if they were on a conveyer belt. This is different from what Charlotte Mason recommended -- she didn't recommend a schedule ruled by bells ringing every 20 minutes. She recognized that academic work was very fatiguing for children's brains and so she thought variety between lessons was important -- seatwork following by stretching, a literature lesson followed by copywork, etc. Even schools that focus on block lessons often provide for this change-up for younger children because it's just a developmental fact that it is hard for them to take in challenging things for long stretches of time.
I think having longer lessons can be a good idea -- it just doesn't seem to work well for my particular kids, but maybe this boils down to being sensitive to how kids are reacting to the way the homeschool schedule is working.
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Willa
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stellamaris
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So, to kind of get back to Chapter 1 how's everyone doing on identifying their "vision"?
Can you answer for yourself the question: "Why Simplify?". I'm not sure I have an answer yet, but I'm working on it! My answer has something to do with achieving balance, proportion, and grace, with doing the will of God in the moment, and with creating temporal and spatial "margin" to allow better interactions within the family. We definitely tend to rush from one thing to another and that creates huge stress for all of us! The next thing I want to do is to print out my comments for my dh to read (he hasn't time to read the book, but we will continue to discuss the vision for our family).
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stellamaris
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Could I introduce another idea from Chapter 1 here? As I was walking away (yes, AWAY ) from my computer, looking through Ch. 1, I came upon this quote in the "bubble" on p. 27:
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| The central struggle of parenthood is to let our hopes for our children outweigh our fears |
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I completely agree that for me this has been a true struggle. My schooling choices and scheduling choices are sometimes even affected by this fear....fear of being a "bad mom", fear of "what other's might think", fear of failing my own children, fear of the world and temptations "out there". Maintaining an attitude of HOPE, that great gift we receive at baptism, and basing my choices on that hopefulness, is definitely going to be part of my "vision".
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Caroline
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Connections
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I reread the first chapter and it seems to me that KJP answers his own question about why simplify with the following:
(1) to reduce the stress in our children's lives so that they can regain calm and strength to develop into the adults they are going to become,
(2) to reduce the mental clutter of our adult lives, enabling us to focus on our children and be truly present to them more often, and
(3) to experience a more positive relationship with our children when the stresses of too much are reduced for both of us.
I think that is why I felt affirmed in our homeschooling lifestyle. IMO, homeschooling reduces (but does not eliminate- something that is impossible and undesirable) the stresses of childhood.
If we keep enough of the home in homeschooling, our children tend to have lots of downtime and time for breathing in and breathing out.
KJP seems to stress throughout the book the importance of children knowing what is coming next- having a sense of things and a rhythm to their days. We can provide this.
For me, it is important that I stick to our recently refined and reduced homeschooling schedule instead of changing course every few weeks. (Something my children noticed, commented on and acted out because of.)
I also need more work on reducing my mental clutter. Reducing "things" and establishing some more routines to our evenings and meals has been helping with that. More reductions to come.
With an eye toward stress reduction for all of us, simplification will likely look very different from family to family and homeschool to homeschool.
Reducing stress. Living in the moment. Finding God in every moment.
Sounds good to me!
__________
Tracey
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SeaStar
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I have to laugh when I think about my "vision" for my family.
When I was expecting my first, that vision included the softly lit picture of me tip-toeing into the baby's room at night and watching him breathe sweetly up and down for a few minutes in his beautiful crib before heading off to bed myself. It also included the vision of the first day of school... proud to send him off in his cute little Catholic uniform.
And then came real life- where, truth be known- my ds never spent one single night, ever, in a crib of any sort, and then later could not be left at all, anywhere, without a huge meltdown if mom wasn't around.
My vision now is keeping a sharp eye out for the true (and often changing) needs of my family and adapting to them without a meltdown on *my* part. Also- accepting who and where my dc are now- gracefully.
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jdostalik
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I finished Chapter One last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am going to talk with dh about working on a vision for our family. To be truthful, when I look back and try to remember our early vision for our family, I know we wanted a faith-filled home with lots of love and (God-willing) lots of babies. I think we have been blessed beyond our wildest dreams but once the babies started coming, life became too busy and full to continue to work on our vision beyond living it out daily in simple ways...but now we need to try and work a bit harder to get back to those simple days when we could stay home all day and nurse and play...Big kids need more and I am working to try and figure out how to keep our lives simple and focused on our home but still meet my big kids' needs....
I am also reading Fr. Dubay's book, Happy Are You Poor--I am enjoying it alot, too.
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Gloria JMJ
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As regards homeschool clutter...
What do I do with old workbooks? Should I keep them or am I free to 'let go'? Boy it would be nice to trash them when I'm done, but I thought they should be kept . I'm sorry if I'm jumping the gun here, but my vision doesn't include swimming in papers .
How about Religeous clutter...Is there such a thing .
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Jeanne
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"How about Religeous clutter...Is there such a thing"
My 16 year old daughter would say yes very loudly. We started decluttering our house last week. I believe we are at about 25-30 large trash bags being taken to St. Vincent De Paul. In the mist of cleaning my dd said our house looks like a catholic thrift shop
I started to really look around and have to agree. With 7 kids--and many sacraments received between them we have quite a collection of pictures, statues, holy cards--lots of knick knacks and rosaries that they have received as gifts.
I do believe it is too much(my son has 4 crucifixes just from confirmation). I have been boxing some of them up and we are going to take them to a catholic mission we volunteer at in the inner city. The Fransican sisters pass them out to the people they help.
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LeeAnn
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re: religious clutter
Yes, I have had some of this. Anything paper (holy cards, devotional booklets) goes to some people in our parish that assist with prison ministry. Extra rosaries, plastic laminated holy cards, etc I give to the lady who leads rosary in the parish or give away to friends.
We have quite a few religious-themed knicknacks that have never really been used either--first communion gifts and such. I am taking a bag of these to the next hs support group meeting or passing on to other friends.
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Simplicity Parenting: Intro and Ch. 1
