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Willa
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MicheleQ wrote:
| This isn't my thread so I can only speak for myself but, I think it does fit because really how can we have this conversation about simplicity parenting without looking at it through the lens of our Faith? I did order the book though with some hesitation because I see it is Waldorf influenced and frankly I'm not a Waldorf fan, but before it arrived I started re-reading Fr. Dubay's Happy Are You Poor because I wanted to refresh my understanding of simplicity from a Catholic viewpoint and let that be my starting point. |
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I recommend the Dubay book, too.
And I agree, Michele. I don't think my ideas about simplicity spring from the same origins as Waldorf ones (judging from what I've seen on various Waldorf sites) yet I do think the idea of "poverty of spirit" is a very resonant one for Catholics and since Caroline recommended the book as a springboard for discussion, I thought it might be something that could be very valuable to discuss in light of our Catholic faith.
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Willa
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stellamaris
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Willa, I agree with you whole-heartedly that as we undertake any discussion about simplicity it needs to be in the context of our faith, so I really am happy Michele mentioned Happy Are You Poor...a great book and very convicting, too. Michele, I think some of Fr. Dubay's thoughts would contribute greatly to our discussion, so feel free to post any quotes or ideas that you think pertain to this topic. I also appreciated Jennifer's quotes focusing our attention on the Catholic idea of detachment. I am visiting my family on the West coast this week, so I have very limited computer time right now, but I am glad this discussion is continuing on. When I return to Delaware around the 7th, I'll start up the chapter discussion threads in Book Club. There's so much to discuss on this topic, no one ought to be concerned about highjacking the thread...the richer and deeper our conversation on this, the more steeped in the writings of Scripture and the saints and Fathers, the more helpful it will be to us all. No need to restrict ourselves to just the Waldorf philosophy (I myself do not take a Waldorf approach, although some elements I do incorporate here). The ideas put forth in this book are valuable for getting us thinking about the issues we confront in our culture and how these impact our parenting and our interaction with our families; let's consider these ideas from the perspective of our faith, and then let's discuss practical ways of implementing them in our homes where appropriate.
It's kind of unfounded, but I really began to feel the author of Simplicity Parenting might be a Christian just because so much of what he had to say reflected a Christian approach to possessions and also to the dignity and purpose of human life, although he never actually made any specific religious reference in the book. Let's continue this discussion, drawing in the treasures of our Faith to guide and illuminate us, so that we might create homes that truly radiate Catholic values.
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Caroline
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Erin
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A hard question I asked myself three years back when I started this whole detachement/decluttering process is why do I have to constantly have to keep de-cluttering? I realise that I always will, reality is ten people equal stuff but I started asking myself did I really need something before I purchased. If I went garage sale-ing it was for a particular item needed and I only purchased that. If I went into the store I didn't veer over to the DVD/book section to 'just look'. If I was given bags of clothes I immediately went through and only kept what was needed.
Now for real honesty  I kept it up for a couple of years and I have slipped back into old habits again. So thanks for the boost to get back on track. 
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MicheleQ
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Erin wrote:
A hard question I asked myself three years back when I started this whole detachement/decluttering process is why do I have to constantly have to keep de-cluttering? I realise that I always will, reality is ten people equal stuff but I started asking myself did I really need something before I purchased. If I went garage sale-ing it was for a particular item needed and I only purchased that. If I went into the store I didn't veer over to the DVD/book section to 'just look'. If I was given bags of clothes I immediately went through and only kept what was needed.
Now for real honesty I kept it up for a couple of years and I have slipped back into old habits again. So thanks for the boost to get back on track. |
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It's easy to get off track isn't it? I do well for a while and then things pile up again but like JennMac wrote earlier it's a process and with a house full of people it's not going to be a once and done thing.
One thing I am insisting on as my children move out (3 of 10 so far) is that they take all their "stuff" with them. I don't care what they do with it but I'm not going to be their storage facility.
What simplifying gives me is a sense of freedom. Clutter feels like a prison to me and too much stuff makes me a slave. It all has to be managed and maintained and who needs that when there's enough to do in life anyway?
Of course I'm not saying we should get rid of everything --we certainly NEED some things but overall, most of us have far more than we need.
I think in terms of fulfilling our vocations this is an important thing to really look at. How much of my energy goes to unnecessary things that do not enrich the lives of my family? They may bring us short term pleasure but do they also bring us joy? Do too many toys and books scattered about the house cause me to lose my temper faster than if we had fewer of these things and more time for spending together?
Just pondering. . .
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Michele Quigley
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Willa
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stellamaris wrote:
| There's so much to discuss on this topic, no one ought to be concerned about highjacking the thread...the richer and deeper our conversation on this, the more steeped in the writing so Scripture and the saints and Fathers, the more helpful it will be to us all. No need to restrict ourselves to just the Waldorf philosophy (I myself do not take a Waldorf approach, although some elements I do incorporate here). The ideas put forth in this book are valuable for getting us thinking about the issues we confront in our culture and how these impact our parenting and our interaction with our families; let's consider these ideas from the perspective of our faith, and then let's discuss practical ways of implementing them in our homes where appropriate. |
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Well said!
I'm looking forward to getting my copy from the library --it's "in transit" so I was hoping it would come today, but no go 
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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MicheleQ wrote:
Clutter feels like a prison to me and too much stuff makes me a slave. It all has to be managed and maintained and who needs that when there's enough to do in life anyway?
...How much of my energy goes to unnecessary things that do not enrich the lives of my family? They may bring us short term pleasure but do they also bring us joy? Do too many toys and books scattered about the house cause me to lose my temper faster than if we had fewer of these things and more time for spending together?
Just pondering. . . |
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I *hate* that feeling of clutter and the burden it imposes. Its hard sometimes to figure out what is a good, and what is excess. Each time I cull, it gets better, though. Love your ponderings, Michele.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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SusanMc
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I love HAYP too. I think I'm due for a rereading on that as well. I love the fact that we can discuss this book and our faith simultaneously here so it makes perfect sense to take advantage of it.
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stellamaris
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Quote:
| It's easy to get off track isn't it? I do well for a while and then things pile up again but like JennMac wrote earlier it's a process and with a house full of people it's not going to be a once and done thing. |
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Why is it soooo easy to bring things into a house, but sooooo hard to take them out?
It's like a Roach Motel: Stuff checks in, but it doesn't check OUT!!! 
Well, on that note, I'm offline until after Epiphany! Have a blessed feast day, y'all!
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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SeaStar
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I have enjoyed reading all your thoughts- the more layers added on the better the discussion gets, spiritually and motivationally (is that a word? )
If I had just picked up this book and read it on my own, I would have never thought: oh, this is Waldorf- based philosophy. Even reading it knowing this, I can't say that I detect more than wonderful common sense and a true respect for the dignity of families and children.
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jdostalik
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My copy just arrived a few moments ago. I am really looking forward to beginning it this evening when the kids are tucked in bed.
My latest challenge as a homemaker has been learning to care for the children and their needs/education while adjusting to dh being gone the majority of the week (he travels Mon-Thurs each week). I didn't realize how much I depended on him coming home each evening to get that extra load of laundry done or that cabinet cleaned out. You see, I am a night owl and can get a lot done in the evenings. That doesn't work so well now as my child-bather and read-aloud helper is gone. Now, I am finding that it is even harder to manage the household and the needs of my kids when I am all alone. 
I loved your quotes from St. Josemaria, Jen!
I am feeling a bit like I'm drowning trying to just maintain my home and care for the kiddos. Simplicity, detachment, drawing closer to God and His Mother as my model, this is my hope.
Looking forward to more of this lovely conversation, ladies!
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Jennifer in TX
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Nina Murphy
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St. Josemaria Escriva wrote:
"The best examples of poverty are those mothers and fathers of large and poor families who spend their lives for their children and who through their effort and their constancy - often without complaining of their needs - bring up their family, creating a cheerful home in which everyone learns to love, to serve and to work." (Conversations with Monsignor Escriva)
Reading this almost brought tears to my eyes!
Everyone has made VERY good points. Michele writing that it brings peace and tranquility to de-clutter, that it isn't a vain or futile process....that it is *necessary* to our serenity, resounds so deeply with me. I am always looking for ways to organize and re-organize all of our belongings, utensils, clothes and shoes, reading materials, long-term storage items, medicine, even food....not even "extra" things, but things used in every day life. *I* feel so much better when things are streamlined, and everything is in a proper place.
The frustration for me, personally, is what was mentioned I think by Jenn as well: that I have a LARGE number of people (12 right now, 11 when my son returns to school--but he still abides here) living in a SMALL space (with small work and storage areas), and those people require a certain number of things. AND IT CAN'T REDUCE ENOUGH for me.
And I live with an extended family member and can't *choose* to declutter for him---I have to accept my lack of control over it, and live with it; More complicated: it is his house, so it is even more limited what say I have. I must always work on being grateful for what I have been given, be careful not to "toss" or rearrange without permission, or change meals or place rules on food purchasing choices. Because it affects other people. If I were living according to my comfort level things would be different, but there are many, many more people to consider.
I think that my life INTRINSICALLY is complicated and yet I *yearn* for simplicity, the opposite. I almost frustrate myself and cause spiritual angst by wanting what is not even truly attainable (at this point in my life). I push against it. And THAT is almost something I need to "detach" from more than anything else. If I could. Does anyone follow me or know what I am trying to put into words?
I haven't read the book so I may be on the wrong track, and no one craves simplicity like me! But IS there a danger of feeling unnecessary "guilt" from reading it and wanting to passionately embrace it in hopes of salvation? 
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~~Nina
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LeeAnn
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I've ordered this book as well. Mine will arrive Monday.:)
I can't restate any better what has already been said. I am on a huge decluttering binge, becoming a fan of minimalism (though not modernism!) and trying to cultivate more detachment--all in hopes of bringing myself and my family closer to Christ. Thank you to the OP who started the thread. I look forward to the chapter discussions.
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Willa
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Nina Murphy wrote:
I think that my life INTRINSICALLY is complicated and yet I *yearn* for simplicity, the opposite. I almost frustrate myself and cause spiritual angst by wanting what is not even truly attainable (at this point in my life). I push against it. And THAT is almost something I need to "detach" from more than anything else. If I could. Does anyone follow me or know what I am trying to put into words?be
I haven't read the book so I may on the wrong track, and no one craves simplicity like me! But IS there a danger of feeling unnecessary "guilt" from reading it and wanting to passionately embrace it in hopes of salvation? |
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Good point and I hope we can discuss it more.
Basically, I think you are asking whether we can become "attached", in an unhealthy way, to simplicity. I'm rereading St Francis de Sales collection of letters called Thy Will Be Done and he repeatedly makes the point that even good things, done for themselves rather than for love of God, actually take us away from God.
For example, he speaks to a woman who is living with her in-laws. Her father-in-law in particular is moody and has his little arbitrary quirks. She wants to live a devout life and longs for the simplicity of the convent, but de Sales says that God has placed her in her situation and that living that life is the way to holiness for her.
(I can't quote directly right now because the room is dark -- DH and teens are watching a Perry Mason video -- but that is the gist of it).
I remember once writing about all the clutter of Aidan's medical stuff -- and how I was always tripping over oxygen tubing and moving around feeding equipment, changing ice packs, all this complexity around me -- but at the time, that was MY simplicity, what God wanted from me -- in other words, simplicity has to be an internal disposition, whether the outside circumstances are simple or not. Not that it was easy to bear or that I was successful at resignation -- just that I realized.
Hope that made sense, Nina  I hope we can discuss at some point how to tell the difference between striving for simplicity for God's will, vs doing it for different reasons. Seems important to me, because I struggle with it all the time. I make some good change -- and feel like I'm actually growing away from God instead of towards Him -- because I'm making that new thing my new standard, and so to some extent substituting it for Him.
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Willa
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Nina Murphy
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Your response made my night, Willa. I think you "get me" exactly! I always benefit from everything you write....
I DO need suggestions and reminders on living better and more simply, and in our circumstances, we here certainly always need to be observant and discerning of what is cluttering our hearts, minds, and senses and try to make improvements.
Unfortunately with my personality, I tend to get over-perfectionist about it. Silly me. They are just suggestions that are supposed to be helpful and I have to make it complicated! Sigh.... So I have to watch myself. It is really about prudence and balance....and knowing oneself. The age old things!
The book sounds like it is going to give me many gentle proddings and opportunities to consider if change in a particular area would benefit us (and discussions with my husband for date night!) as I tune into your continued discussions. Very interesting! And we can all find something to apply to our lives.
Oh, and Willa---how perfect the quotes apply from St. Francis de Sales. So perceptive of you as usual, it gives me goosebumps. .
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~~Nina
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Sarah M
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Willa wrote:
For example, he speaks to a woman who is living with her in-laws. Her father-in-law in particular is moody and has his little arbitrary quirks. She wants to live a devout life and longs for the simplicity of the convent, but de Sales says that God has placed her in her situation and that living that life is the way to holiness for her.
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This, I think, is the heart of simplicity for Catholics. Being detached from our own will, and simply accepting whatever comes up during the course of our day as coming from the hand of God. Certainly decluttering our homes and simplifying our children's schedules will give our hearts and minds more "breathing room"-- always a good thing, and something that will create more time and space to respond to God's will on a day to day basis. But, to my mind, simplifying an environment or a schedule is only a tool toward simplicity of spirit, it's not simplicity itself.
"Simple" does not just mean less stuff. It means less noise and less attachment to our own desires so that we can better serve the will of God.
In short, simplicity means less of me and more of Him.
I suspect that any kind of drive to simplify for simplicity's sake may be unhealthy. We are then attaching ourselves to a certain kind of physical environment- a sin of the senses, right? Here's where we can take this book (from a non-Catholic perspective) and infuse it with our faith for a richer, deeper meaning.
Ooh. I can already tell that this is going to be a good discussion, ladies. 
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SeaStar
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Nina-
In the book the author does tackle the situation of families who lives are truly hectic with circumstances they can't always control. He does speak about how you can start in very, very small ways to establish more patterns and rhythms to help deal with these "out of control" feelings. I thought the examples he gave were very helpful.
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Paula in MN
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My big brown truck was here yesterday and I'm completely immersed in my book! I can't wait for the discussion!
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Paula
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Cay Gibson
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Paula in MN wrote:
| My big brown truck was here yesterday and I'm completely immersed in my book! I can't wait for the discussion! |
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I believe...with or without the book...the discussion has begun.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Bookswithtea
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Cay Gibson wrote:
I believe...with or without the book...the discussion has begun. |
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I got mine yesterday afternoon, too and so far, I'm really enjoying it.
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Connections
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I, too, worry about "attaching", in an unhealthy way, to simplicity. (Thanks for mentioning the idea Nina and putting the concept into words Willa.)
For instance, my desire to declutter right now cannot take me away from the needs of my family. I cannot ignore my children all day in order to get things "in order". This is MY WILL- to have it done NOW. I need to fight that urge.
Then, when things are reorganized and decluttered, I need to detach from the desire that creeps in of having things look neat and tidy at all times. Not going to happen. That will just make me cranky and short tempered with my DC.
I think doing a little here and there as I can (and using my work time for prayer as well) is going to be important for me. Staying present to my children and my husband during the process will be key.
_____________
Tracey
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Simplicity Parenting
