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Nina Murphy
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| Posted: Nov 19 2009 at 3:12pm | IP Logged
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mary theresa wrote:
Nina Murphy wrote:
God knew that she would need to be tough in her life. She has been equipped temperamentally for what is ahead of her with a fighting spirit! She is going to need to "boss" her own life in a sense and have that holy "audacity" that pushes her through trying and testing times. (She has enough audacity for the whole family!)
I HAVE seen how her incorrigibility has served her in giving her the will to push herself physically and even, academically. I'm sure someday she will truly need to push herself spiritually, as well (she is only 8, after all). My prayer as her mother is that she will prove to be a great Saint and strong leader in the cause of Truth (the saying that cholerics end up great saints or great sinners......!). |
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I love this! This is similiar to what I try and say to my husband who is choleric too and CAN'T STAND how choleric is daughter is (funny clashing of similiars there!): "God gave her strength and competence and perseverance for a reason. She's going to be a strong woman someday!" 
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How funny, Mary Theresa, because I was going to add that the one person who is not "surprised" or intimidated in any way by my little spitfire, is her own (Choleric) father! And that that is what I would say for advice. When I get exasperated, I go to him, and he has no problem knowing what is right for her....not that it is always *easy* and that she is magically compliant, but it doesn't tire him and wear his spirit down like it can me. Go to the family member with a facile complementarity for communicating or time with the child. It's a surefire way to gain insight into how this intense presence best responds to, and processes things.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Jenny
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| Posted: Nov 19 2009 at 9:12pm | IP Logged
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mary theresa wrote:
Part of what I see in her (and in other cholerics I know, though I was suprised to see it in one so young!) is a lack of ability to let go of something, to trust -- even in Jesus, or her parents to take care of something in a satisfactory way. It's as if she has this need to be involved and in control of things -- and I can't help thinking that even in this early stage something needs to be done about this. Lack of trust in God or others is a choleric weakness ("I can do it best and fastest!" right?) and I want to find a way to gently show her that she can calm down, rest, and not stress out about what is going to maybe, possibly happen or not happen if SHE doesn't say/do/provide something!
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Very good observation! I am struggling with this right now. My priest pegged me as a choleric as I sought counsel from him for fear/anxiety. He stressed the need to TRUST GOD! Easier said than done for a card carrying choleric
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Jenny
Chris' wife and momma of 7. My blog: The Littlest Way--Bible Journaling, Inspiring Bible Quotes, Daily Affirmations, Prayer Journaling & photography
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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Well, I have four boys and four cholerics (five if you count their father),.....there is a special place in Heaven for me, Sisters. Good thing I am tough.....and stubborn, and not easily pushed around. Wait, does that make me choleric too??? Lily doesn't have a chance.
I think the thing that works best is choosing my battles very carefully...trying to stay as non-emotional as possible, (hard when I want to WIN every battle..oops, I'm really not choleric, right?) and taking care of me, quiet time, even just going to the store by myself.
I have said, jokingly, in the past I wasn't sure if we should save for college or bail money.....fortunately, I think we are leaning towards college.
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Mom of four brave lads and one sweet lassie
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 7:24am | IP Logged
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Jenny wrote:
[QUOTE=mary theresa]
Part of what I see in her (and in other cholerics I know, though I was suprised to see it in one so young!) is a lack of ability to let go of something, to trust -- even in Jesus, or her parents to take care of something in a satisfactory way. It's as if she has this need to be involved and in control of things -- and I can't help thinking that even in this early stage something needs to be done about this. Lack of trust in God or others is a choleric weakness ("I can do it best and fastest!" right?) and I want to find a way to gently show her that she can calm down, rest, and not stress out about what is going to maybe, possibly happen or not happen if SHE doesn't say/do/provide something!
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This is an excellent insight and, as I think about my dd, and myself, I realize that this is key to our struggles. Thank you for mentioning this. It gives me something to pray about!
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Becky
Wife to Wes, Mom to 6 wonderful kids on Earth and 4 in Heaven!
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ALmom
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| Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 11:08am | IP Logged
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I had one dd who later told me that when I said no, it made it exceedingly hard for her to obey. I'm not sure why she became one of my most obedient despite me - perhaps because she had a wonderful confessor during some really critical years. Thank you Fr. Borque. She really did, though. I do know, it helped a lot when she understood reasons - and even at an early age she responded much better to polite requests with plenty of explanations. Now, I have others who wouldn't be able to even begin to follow logic at 3, this child just seemed to have inate good sense if I tapped into it.
I also read an article written for fathers of religious congregations - and it was applied to parenting. One of the best pieces of advice - make very few demands, but follow through on what you do command. Create a habit of obedience. They also stressed calm and great respect for the person in all correction.
With one child, we were pulling our hair out about how to get them to acknowledge fault or accept the consequences of action. Generally we would do things like skip special outings, not play on the playground if behavior was bad (obviously child was tired and needed a nap or they would have behaved better). With this child, didn't seem to care - we finally realized that the thing was everyone was suffering when this child misbehaved and we even caught a grin or two during these moments. Next time, the whole family went to the zoo after Mass - but I stayed in the car with this child. Now there was quite a bit of temper going on, a matter of fact statement of I'm sorry, I hate that you are missing the fun, but .... At some point we started driving around the block to just see what was there. This provided a face saving means of taking punishment but no one else was allowed to even bring this up again. When the children came back, they all were talking about what they saw in the zoo and we didn't stop that - but the punished child jumped in with something seen on the drive. Mass behavior was never a problem again for this child.
With another child, there was this early testing. I told her the iron was hot, don't touch it. She had to see for herself. After that, she believed me when I said something was hot. This is also the child who would test to see if I'd let her get away with taking her bike or walking into the street. If I'd bent or ignored the behavior even one little time, it would have become an ongoing battle. Instead we went for a walk once, she tried, I corrected, and moved her back to the sidewalk. The second time, I repeated my instructions with a warning that next time, she would lose the priviledge of walking and I'd have to carry her - loved her too much to let her risk getting hurt. She did it again, and I did carry her. There was some pitching it, which was ignored calmly with the repeated comment that I loved her too much etc. (You must realize that some of these were putting the little toe into the street to see if the rule would be enforced). I never had any more trouble. So while they test immensely, they also comply once they somehow see the good sense of it. (I help them along to see the good sense of it by setting up calm, and reasonable natural consequences).
I know that I have this temperment and one of the things I never did was leave my older children in charge until I had seen the ability to lead without bossing. Putting me in charge of my siblings before having this maturity, led to a great deal of pain and resentment growing up and did not help either me or my siblings see our own fault in this.
I do make the children tell me only their own faults in disagreements (one on one without a big public thing at first) especially initially. It takes a great deal of patience at times - and extra time but has proven worth it in the end. I also tend to put the responsibility of my cholerics working out, through discussion, their own disagreements - but it takes a lot of adult guidance because cholerics are quite stubborn. They really need to be guided to see that the way they say things often does really hurt others.
Oh, but that stubborness is really a gift. It was a great insight to me at some point - I had always fought a very fierce temper, anger, etc. and I am extremely stubborn - not taking the break I sometimes need to take. But I also don't give up, become a good advocate and persevere in finding answers. It helped me to see that these traits could be harnessed. I grew up thinking that I just had to squelch them because they were bad - but knowing that they must be harnessed. I also distinctly remember two things - when my parents yelled, I never, ever saw my own fault. It was always their fault  . Once, my dad had some kind of desert that he hid under the bed for himself, and we were all bragging about how we found all his hiding places. My dad simply stated that this candy was a Christmas gift to him - no anger, just hurt. I never, ever forgot how terrible a thing we'd done in stealing those candies from my poor dad. Suddenly what had been a source of bragging was a source of shame. I try to remember the goal of helping the children see right from wrong and acting on it for good, and often (especially with cholerics) the indirect approach works very well. (Of course as a choleric myself, I have to fight the tendency to immediately react with lots of yelling or intensity). If something was broken or undone that should have been - expressing my feelings of sorrow without accusing will most often bring this choleric person quietly and humbly to apologize and try to make ammends. Their efforts to make ammends are just as intense as the initial fault. They will touch me no end with the great effort they take in being especially helpful and kind.
I try to model ways for children to harness those quick reactions (I like the running idea for my boys, never thought of that). For me, I learned to write letters - and destroy them afterwards. I would begin dripping with venom and end acknowledging my own contributions. I had to have a means of appropriately letting the emotions sweep, without acting inappropriately with them. It is essential that I make sure my cholerics have a bit of space and privacy to process things when they are mad - ie don't let the other children follow them around or hound them - or give a few minutes before I go up and start asking questions.
We also discuss more appropriate ways of saying things - not necessarily worded like that. It helps the choleric if someone else's feelings are explained later, after the heat of the moment is past. For instance, I think that so and so heard this. I know that isn't what you meant. We lead the child to come up with their own solution.
If child A hit child B, then of course you have to address the hitting. But later, when apologies are made, things are calmer, etc., you also acknowledge the person who hit who was dealing with intense emotions and how they might plan a different response to the annoyance in the future - ie while you may turn the other cheeks, for cholerics, we generally have to build up to a point to do that. We must be careful not to let things build up and recognize early warning signs so we can address these things before we explode. It is best to have some pre thought out strategies to implement; otherwise, you will simply react.
We are all learning to communicate, etc.
Oh, and with all children, but especially cholerics - having choices is important. Do you want to wear the red dress or the blue one? I also don't like to surprise or rush unless absolutely necessary. So plan extra time to get ready so the child can do things themselves.
A lot has to do with how things are phrased.
Oh and with my most choleric child, I have learned not even to bother to ask if he did such and such when they are really young. Asking just sets up habitual lie. Instead, I'll tell him to wash his hands even if he already has, since I didn't hear the water running. Eventually as they are older and know what lying is, then at least we don't have habitual lying to deal with.
I have also used the line many times - I am the mom. I also have to periodically address a choleric with no people skills.
The other really important thing is regular confession and good preparation for confession. They also need plenty of praise that is well deserved - notice them doing good and try to focus on this most. It really motivates them to strive for even more. Too much criticism can sometimes make them shut down in despair. Also we had good advice from some book or something to make sure they see themselves as worthy simply as a child of God - not just by what they do or accomplish so that later when failure does strike as it strikes us all, they aren't totally crushed.
My grown cholerics are very strong in faith, they have very good goals and are not afraid to stand alone in a crowd of ridiculers. If they know something is right, they have the discipline and wherewithal to stick to it with great perseverence. They just have to have goals well set because it is pretty difficult for them to change direction once they have decided. Being attentive and consistent seem essential especially to these folks.
Oh and the bossiness. I just try to model and do a lot of rephrasing. And sometimes I did have to tell cholerics that this was something that mom and dad handle - no one else.
Janet
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
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Jenny wrote:
mary theresa wrote:
Part of what I see in her (and in other cholerics I know, though I was suprised to see it in one so young!) is a lack of ability to let go of something, to trust -- even in Jesus, or her parents to take care of something in a satisfactory way. It's as if she has this need to be involved and in control of things -- and I can't help thinking that even in this early stage something needs to be done about this. |
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My daughter (grown now) has always struggled with this and I agree that developing a spiritual sense is particularly important for this kind of temperament. She benefits from strong spiritual support -- the rich, sacramental, demanding aspects of our faith. The warm-fuzzy type of spirituality just isn't enough of a counterbalance for her.
My daughter is very musical and verbal so the great old music, and apologetics, and the traditional liturgy and devotions, have been good venues for her to experience through all her senses that God is stronger, smarter and more beautiful than anyone, and can be trusted with her welfare. With that in mind, she can keep her need to control in its proper perspective. After all, it is an excellent quality in its place!
She is very insightful too, and I agree with others that for this type of choleric, UNDERSTANDING why parents are doing what they are doing is very important. But helping a choleric understand is subtly different from arguing and negotiating, because a choleric often sees back and forth dialogue before obedience as a sign of weakness in the authority figure. I have found that out through trial and error.
So insisting on obedience in the chivalric, proud, bravehearted tradition, as a kind of discipline for excellence, but being respectful about saving face in that obedience process, seems to be important for some kinds of cholerics.
I like what Charlotte Mason says about it:
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| "By-and-by, when he is old enough, take the child into confidence; let him know what a noble thing it is to be able to make himself do, in a minute, and brightly, the very thing he would rather not do. To secure this habit of obedience, the mother must exercise great self-restraint; she must never give a command which she does not intend to see carried out to the full. And she must not lay upon her children burdens, grievous to be borne, of command heaped upon command." |
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I have never taken my children "into confidence" in so many words, but I do try to make the thought process transparent that I sincerely think it is a noble thing to obey rightly.
Charlotte Mason also says:
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| {authority)is no longer a matter of personal honour and dignity; authority is for use and service, and the honour that goes with it is only for the better service of those under authority. The arbitrary parent, the exacting parent, who claims this and that of deference and duty because he is a parent, all for his own honour and glory, is more hopelessly in the wrong than the parent who practically abdicates; the majesty of parenthood is hedged round with observances only because it is good for the children to ‘faithfully serve, honour, and humbly obey’ their natural rulers. Only at home can children be trained in the chivalrous temper of ‘proud submission and dignified obedience’; |
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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ALmom
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Yes, ditto Willa- which reminded me that one of the simple things that helped my cholerics set high and lofty goals was the frequent reading of the lives of the saints from a very early age - and the discussions around how hard it was to do promptly and cheerfully that which seemed contrary to their own will. There are a lot of choleric saints that my children could identify with. Plus when they were discouraged with temper (I remember how distinctly I would get so weighed down by my constant outbursts - and how much I sometimes scared myself and wanted a firm hand - but not a yelling, emotional one), Saints like St. Camillus de Lellus would be an inspiration to persevere and not give up. The Jesuit motto - All for the Greater Honor and Glory of God - was and is a real inspiration to my grown choleric. Mother Theresa on "focusing on the faithfulness - not the results (failures or success) was another thing we repeated frequently.
The other thing we were advised is to always motivate by love - so we had to be very careful with wording in some of the older religion texts and make sure to rephrase some of the more harsher sounding things in a way that stated the same truth but emphasized it from the point of the love of God for us and our response in love to God - or you can end up with some really judgemental attitudes and a more pharasaic approach to things. Also we all had to be extremely careful of not being critical - doesn't mean we didn't recognize and acknowledge error - one very wise priest warned us that being critical of our parish, priest, etc. would teach them and one day it would turn back on us. We had to model obedience and respect for the legitimate authority over us.
We also read literature like Carry on Mr. Bowditch. Without discussing, I (and I'm pretty sure some of my cholerics, too) recognized the character flaw (eventually overcome) of Mr. Bowditch's impatience with other folks slowness and then could identify with ourselves and it helped us recognize this same fault in ourselves. It was an insight of how the other folks felt. This is the kind of indirectness that helped me see. If someone had told me I was being impatient, ...and approached with direct criticism, I might not have recognized this as easily as seeing it played out in a non-threatening to me way in the tales of a book. I also identified heavily with Jo in Little Women. Marme's discussion was so helpful to me in the context of helping this choleric become more who she was meant to be.
I have been awed by the balance my non-choleric husband brings to me by his very methodical and thoughtful approach to things. Without developing some patience, I would have missed the gift that he brings in his slowness to react and now I see it not as slowness but as a deliberate weighing of what is best. I was totally shocked by my non-choleric dd who told me that when she feels mad, she stops and thinks - "Is this really worth blowing up over - decides not and that she'll save the blow up for something really important." Now, never in my wildest dreams would it even occur to me that that is possible - and for me it isn't. I have to have an automatic prior thought out "when I start getting that little warning that my pressure cooker is building, I'd better call a time out for mom". I'm usually reflecting long after I've blown up - and knowing once again, I'll be back in line for confession for the same old thing. It helps me to remember the difficulty of the temperment, even while firmly handling and guiding the behavior.
I do love the distinction between giving reasons and entering debate. The choleric can wear you down if you get into it - even if you are a choleric - but maybe that was my melancholic also. Anyways, deferring to very non-emotional dad was a great way to deflect this in the teen years.
If you really want to try on that outfit, ok, but leave the tag on and check with dad. (This was critical with dd and I. She got very sensitive about me telling her that things were too tight, too low, too..... ie those modesty issues in her early teen years and would take things so much better from dad - maybe it was a clashing of temperments or maybe it was just that she was just two females clashing - but dad was a lifesaver. I also hated shopping and as stubborn as I am, I'd get to the point of either being in a fight with her or regretting permission or both. Deflecting it away from our two clashing, strong temperments for a few years around age 13, solved the problems quickly. Most of the time, she'd make the decision to put the stuff back on the wrack 'cause it wouldn't meet dad's approval anyway. And deep down, I think she knew it wasn't quite right, but it was the best of the worst, iykwim.
I must say that most of my early cholerics had a strong secondary temperment so that may also weigh in on how easily the choleric temperment in our house got channeled. I was a much bigger challenge to raise, I think, than my children were.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Parenting Choleric Children
