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SuzanneG
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amyable wrote:
| Do you all have a ton of house rules, either written somewhere or unwritten?............ but sometimes I think we should - except we would have SO MANY it would be, to me, ridiculous. My kids want to argue every little point, that if we didn't have a *specific rule* about everything, there would be no point. |
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Amy, do you have Dr. Ray's Discipline That Lasts a Lifetime? He talks about House Rules on page 98.
Here are the 3 features of a House Rule:
Dr. Ray wrote:
- Both parents must agree on it.
- Must involve a recurrent (weekly, daily, hourly, minutely) trouble spot: back talk, sibling quibling, chore shirking, temper tempests. It is best used for the most irritating stuff.
- House Rule consequences are automatic. They result when the rule is broken, without nagging, rereminding, and threatening. You let the consequences do the talking
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He gives a couple good examples. Many are represented on that Poetic Gems thread.
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Suzanne in ID
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amyable
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SuzanneG wrote:
Amy, do you have Dr. Ray's Discipline That Lasts a Lifetime? He talks about House Rules on page 98.
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Thank you Suzanne, I do have that book. I guess I need to pick it up again!! Thanks for the heads up on the rules guidelines.
I'm reading and re-reading this thread, and implementing little things here and there, although several kids are sick (just a bad cold) so I'm sure that is NOT the best time for sweeping changes. 
I'm also realizing that I've been lumping in bad training with disobedience to some extent. Again, the lines are blurred to me. When I have told a certain child again and again, "DON'T put hoodies down the laundry chute every day after one wearing, they are not dirty like clothes, they are like a jacket and we don't wash jackets every day" and yet the hoodies always wind up daily under wet towels in the chute drop area...it's really poor training on my part, I guess, but it FEELS like disobedience on this end! 
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MNMommy
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amyable wrote:
Part of me wants them to only say "Yes Mom" to anything I say, and the other part of me thinks that's ridiculous and no way to develop relationships. But if I allow talking, I get rudeness! Ah, the joy of girls!   |
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First, great thread topic!
Second, when I feel things are getting out of control with obedience, I enact the "Yes, Mom" phrase. If I ask something of them and they counter with a not-so-obedient reply or action, I ignore the reply and say, "Yes, Mom." No matter what they say or do, I just keep saying "Yes, Mom" until they say it and complete my request. Now that we've established a baseline with this little phrase, I can use it quite effectively to recalibrate their reactions.
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Marcia
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Okay I would disagree that mom and dad have to agree on things.... Most of the time my husband and I don't totally agree, but we are able to work out a solution that our kids accept. Usually because we all work together for a solution that meets all of our needs.
Recently I finished watching Unconditional Parenting DVD by Alfie Kohn with my husband. Here are some of the things I got out of it.
1. reconsider your request. is it reasonable?
2.put the relationship with your child first...the left shoe on the floor won't last, but you want to have a relationship with your kid when they leave home
3. love has to be unconditional. Jesus set the standard for us there. Our response to our child should not be based on how they act "appropriately" to our standards.
4. look at things from the child's point of view
5.Be authentic....in other words apologize when you screw up. Let them see you apologize to daddy too!
6. Talk less, listen more
7. Try to say Yes more. Don't be so quick to say no.
8. Don't be rigid. I bet some moms eat on the couch, let the kids to it sometimes too! Or let them have dessert for breakfast (carrot cake of course!)
9. Let the kids decide when possible. They can think up solutions that would work great if given the chance.
I really felt convicted when he said our role in parenting isn't to control our children, but to have them want to make others happy (and not just themselves). The big kicker is that we really shouldn't be treating our children differently than we ourselves want to be treated. He used an example of how badly we treat kids when they forget their coat...and the type of consquences we give them....like making them go without! But we'd never do the same to a friend of ours. We'd drive back and get the missing coat!
Where have we gone in our society that we can treat children with such disrespect? I personally am a fault, but am working on doing better each day.
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Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
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Olivia
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I've just ordered a copy of Dr. Ray's Discipline That Lasts a Lifetime. Looking forward to learning from it.
For those of you that implement number 3 "House Rule consequences are automatic", I was wondering if you could give examples of "consequences" you use that work for you. Thanks.
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Olivia
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I just did a search a realised consequences have already been discussed a few times...I'll look through the old posts 
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Sharyn
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I have found this book to be really helpful Boundaries With Kids
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Olivia
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Sarah M
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Wow, I'm just now getting to this thread, and I think I have a lot of work to do! I just ordered Dr. Ray's book (that Suzanne mentioned above) last night because I'm at my wit's end with my 4yo. I'm realizing that I have absolutely no authority and there is very little obedience happening-- okay, actually probably NO obedience, and I'm really very embarrassed by the way he responds to me (flat out "no", hitting me, running away, etc). Add to all this that my dh is gone for 6 months (Ahhhhh!) and I'm totally feeling like I'm failing in the disicipline/consistency department. I'm going to make some notes tonight and see where I can start-- although I know that without first working on obedience, we won't get ANYWHERE, so...
here's a quick question-- What is the consequence when your 4 year old flat out refuses to obey? And it can be anything- from a request to pick up his bedroom to "it's time to put Jammies on" to "please hold my hand in the parking lot." It's always met with disobedience. Always.  But I feel like I'm constantly threatening (and following through on those threats-- like, no treat after dinner, time out for 5 minutes, etc), but then that just makes him mad and then he misbehaves even more, out of anger.
So I'm eagerly waiting the arrival of Dr. Ray's book, but in the meantime, can you give me some hints as to what the immediate consequence for disobedience is in your home?
(ETA: Amy, I realized the same thing you did after reading the first few replies to this thread-- "I'm a total pushover!" WOW! Lightbulb moment. I was amazed at the responses there and I thought-- "well, no wonder we have discipline problems- my kids are walkin' all over me!!!"  )
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JodieLyn
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hmm with the smaller kids my immediate consequence for disobedience is being made to obey anyway.
Preferably before we get out of the van..
"we're in a parking lot, would you like to hold my hand or wear the harness/leash?" Then if the hand was not forthcoming.. they'd wear the harness right then.
Or, sometimes it's a case of not wanting to be physically controlled.. you might offer.. would you like to hold the edge of my coat/skirt/shirt/etc or would you like to hold my hand? (I'd be ready to grab if they choose the first) but it may be that having that much control they'd behave especially after a couple of times of being made to hold a hand (or you hold their wrist) when they stop holding on and you revert to the more controlled option.
Basically, when they're struggling for more "freedom" I try and give them a choice between a more free option and a less free option.. with if they don't choose the more free option and stay with it.. I can use the less free option right then and there as the consequence.
My dh is a firefighter so there were many times that I had to be able to do all the grocery shopping for instance with all the kids in tow. And that's exactly how I did it. If I have a shopping cart (and parking next to a shopping cart is highly preferable to parking closer to the door  ) Then I can say.. you can either hold onto the cart or you will have to ride in the cart.. if he won't hold on.. then into the cart he goes. And then as they get older.. ok you may walk without holding onto the cart as long as you are within arms distance (and we'd have quick checks.. can you touch the cart? and they'd all get their hands onto the carts.. I'd give grace if they were able to get the cart fast even if they were more than arms distance.. it's a great reminder if you catch them as they're drifting a bit further than you like) etc.
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SuzanneG
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Sarah M wrote:
| here's a quick question-- What is the consequence when your 4 year old flat out refuses to obey? |
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Gently, physically "do" whatever it is that you asked him to do maybe with you holding their hand, guiding their shoulders, picking them up, etc.
ie: pick up jammies---actually take their hand and direct their hand to pick-up the jammies for/with them.
Or...."sit down please." He responds....NO! Then pick him up and sit him down.
*****************************
These are mainly prevention measures to encourage obedience.....not exactly "refusal" measures.
:: Speak in a firm tone (VERY important!) Don't inflect your voice or put your requests in a sing-songy voice. You voice should go down at the end of a request.
:: Don't give a command unless you intend for it to be obeyed.
:: Eye Contact while speaking
:: Face to face when speaking and telling him something
:: Touch while giving instruction
:: Encourage "Yes, mommy" afterwards
:: Give lots of positive stuff while in "emergency" or "focus" mode. For every "negative" there "should be" a few "positives"
:: "Hold Hands or Hold you!" (on being obedient when in "come here" or "stay with me")
:: "No Thank you" instead of "No"
:: Redirection. Pay so much attention, be focused on him once you say something that you can "redirect" as soon as he STARTS to disobey. Gently redirect.
:: Do-overs
:: Role Playing
:: Prepare....Rehearse. Be Proactive. Prepare and rehearse for situations that are "coming up" that are potential "disobedience" scenarios. Even if they are in the next 15 minutes. ie: "In a few minutes, we're going to start getting ready to leave. I will ask you to do a few things, I'd like you to pay attention. Does that make sense?" or.....
"In a few minutes, we'll get out of the van and go into the store. You'll need to hold my hand. Do you understand?" If he says, "No" then I'd always have a back up....like Jodie said....harness, backpack, stroller. I'm never without one of those. "Ok, then do you want to ride in the backpack or stroller?"
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Suzanne in ID
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Mackfam
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SuzanneG wrote:
Sarah M wrote:
| here's a quick question-- What is the consequence when your 4 year old flat out refuses to obey? |
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Gently, physically "do" whatever it is that you asked him to do maybe with you holding their hand, guiding their shoulders, picking them up, etc.
ie: pick up jammies---actually take their hand and direct their hand to pick-up the jammies for/with them.
Or...."sit down please." He responds....NO! Then pick him up and sit him down.
*****************************
These are mainly prevention measures to encourage obedience.....not exactly "refusal" measures.
:: Speak in a firm tone (VERY important!) Don't inflect your voice or put your requests in a sing-songy voice. You voice should go down at the end of a request.
:: Don't give a command unless you intend for it to be obeyed.
:: Eye Contact while speaking
:: Face to face when speaking and telling him something
:: Touch while giving instruction
:: Encourage "Yes, mommy" afterwards
:: Give lots of positive stuff while in "emergency" or "focus" mode. For every "negative" there "should be" a few "positives"
:: "Hold Hands or Hold you!" (on being obedient when in "come here" or "stay with me")
:: "No Thank you" instead of "No"
:: Redirection. Pay so much attention, be focused on him once you say something that you can "redirect" as soon as he STARTS to disobey. Gently redirect.
:: Do-overs
:: Role Playing
:: Prepare....Rehearse. Be Proactive. Prepare and rehearse for situations that are "coming up" that are potential "disobedience" scenarios. Even if they are in the next 15 minutes. ie: "In a few minutes, we're going to start getting ready to leave. I will ask you to do a few things, I'd like you to pay attention. Does that make sense?" or.....
"In a few minutes, we'll get out of the van and go into the store. You'll need to hold my hand. Do you understand?" If he says, "No" then I'd always have a back up....like Jodie said....harness, backpack, stroller. I'm never without one of those. "Ok, then do you want to ride in the backpack or stroller?" |
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 -- on the whole thing!!!!
I was coming to offer some of the same pointers! Suzanne and I must read from the same Dr. Ray books!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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SuzanneG
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Sarah M wrote:
| I just ordered Dr. Ray's book |
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There is an expanded Table of Contents for his book on this thread, which may make Discipline That Lasts A Lifetime more user-friendly after the first reading.
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Suzanne in ID
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Sarah M
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Awesome, Suzanne-- THANKS!!! My copy should arrive tomorrow.
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Marie
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Sarah, I was going to post the exact same question and thoughts about my 4 year old.
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DS 2005, DD 2007, DD 2009 and a new little DS 2011 DS 2014
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Willa
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amyable wrote:
| I'm also realizing that I've been lumping in bad training with disobedience to some extent. Again, the lines are blurred to me. When I have told a certain child again and again, "DON'T put hoodies down the laundry chute every day after one wearing, they are not dirty like clothes, they are like a jacket and we don't wash jackets every day" and yet the hoodies always wind up daily under wet towels in the chute drop area...it's really poor training on my part, I guess, but it FEELS like disobedience on this end! |
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I think it IS disobedience technically, but the question would be whether it's defiance or just a kind of forgetfulness. Both come from self-will to a certain extent.
I usually assume it's forgetfulness unless the kid is outright talking back and refusing. But that's where training is needed, so the forgetfulness doesn't end up being rewarded. I've really never met a kid that takes mom's verbalizations very seriously unless the child already is inclined to obey for whatever reason, and that happens sometimes but not enough for me to count on usually. So I use reinforcers to make the verbal command mean something to that child.
To reward the behavior you want rather than the behavior you don't want, you think up consequences.
Some ideas:
--Save up the hoodies she's thrown in the laundry and have her do a load of washing on her own once she's run out.
--Dispense the hoodies -- let her choose the one she's going to wear for the next X days. Then that's it.... if she gets rid of it early she does without it. But if she is responsible, she gets control back provisionally.
--Have a payment scheme where she does jobs every time she gives you the extra work of dealing with the excess hoodies.
-- or you could use a positive reward system -- if no more than X amount of hoodies show up in the laundry then you get Y privilege (I don't use that kind of thing often because I forget to keep count, and because the kids tend not to remember the positive incentives when it counts, so it usually doesn't work. But I DO try to pay attention to real effort and perhaps say something like "Thanks for doing so much better with X, maybe we can do Y now" so that the child realizes that the effort is being noticed. )
---OR you could have a special, specific procedure for where to put the hoodies after taking them off, and walk her through it several times a day until she thinks she has it down. (this probably works better for a littler girl than for a preteen)
Basically, the specifics don't matter so much. The basic idea is to make disobeying harder, more uncomfortable, more tedious than obeying.... and obeying easier and more rewarding than disobeying. Usually it doesn't take very many days to change a behavior. If the solution isn't working by a couple of days it probably isn't going to work and you should try something else.
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AMDG
Willa
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Sarah M
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Okay, so I've started implementing some of the ideas presented here, and I've had an epiphany of sorts. Don't laugh, ladies, because this is so painfully obvious, I'm sure, but....
I asked what the consequence to disobedience for a 4yo is, and several of you said, basically, there is no option for disobedience. Require the child to obey.
Today, we're walking down the street, and I say to the 4yo, "Hold my hand, please,- " and I bite my tongue to stop myself from finishing the sentence with "or you won't get a treat" as I usually would(we were on our way into a Starbucks). He resisted (of course), and I say: "Hold hand or hold you." (Thanks, Suzanne ). He still wiggles his hand away. I hold him. He looks astonished.
And it suddenly occured to me that when I add the "or you won't get a treat" then I'm giving him the option to disobey. He now has a choice: disobey (and not get a treat) or obey. He will invariably choose to disobey. But today I did not give that option. He had two choices: to obey and hold my hand, or to be held. But either of those requires obedience. So I held him till he sweetly told me that he would indeed hold my hand, and then we held hands and went into Starbucks and he got a treat and I thought: hellooooo? what cloud has my head been on all this time? That was so common sense and it actually worked and WOW- I could really see this working for me!
So forgive my blathering on and on but I am very happy with this, and I will admit freely that I have not, in the past, done extremely well with consistency (ooooh- that sanguine in me!), but I'm excited to start because you've all inspired me.
So  .
And I'll be quiet now. Well, until my Dr. Ray book comes and I have more epiphanies to share.
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kbfsc
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Such a helpful thread! Thank you!
Sarah, I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but humor helps a lot with my little wild men. I don't always have the energy or creative juices to engage with them this way, but if I can make obedience fun, it always works. An example: We're in Sam's Club, the three-year-old wild man, newborn babe, and I, and the little man wants to walk rather than ride in the cart. I'm able to keep him close and delighted if we make it a game. "Where's David?", I ask over and over as he hides in the tail of my Maya wrap. The whole shopping trip becomes a hide and seek. He stays close, he's delighted and all is well.
Now certainly there is a time and place for immediate obedience just because, no games or creative juices from Mama. But I do find that, with my kids, they are pretty willing to obey in those moments just because if I'm not Iron Mama all the time. A balance is required. Hopefully I'll figure that balance out one day.
OK, here's my tricky discipline question. It has two parts:
1. My almost 8-yo son is very intense. Somewhere along the way he has picked up an unbelievably disrespectful attitude which he demonstrates during those intense moments. Terrible things come out of his mouth. Ugly faces. It takes my breath away, because we simply don't treat one another this way! It's been building for at least 6 months, and we've been working on nipping it in the bud all along. The loss of privileges, favorite toys and activities, time-outs, soap in the mouth, even deteriorating to shouting and the occasional spanking. The outbursts are usually followed with copious apologies. He knows that what he's doing is wrong. But, all the same, almost no improvement. Any ideas?
2. And second. This same child seems to want us to know all of his misdeeds. For example, yesterday he committed perhaps one of his worst: in one of his most intense moments, he hit me with a doll. I was so overwhelmed and angry that, after giving him a long time-out, I decided to wait and discuss it with my husband after bedtime. This seemed like an issue for Daddy to handle. But my son apologized to me for it only when my husband had just walked in the door from work. He wanted Daddy to know. So confusing to me! Is this a guilty conscience? Then why doesn't it prevent him from committing these infractions to begin with?
I'm rambling and emotional... Sorry! Any ideas are much appreciated!
And editing to add that this child is also the joy of my life and a delight. I hate to sound so negative about him, it's just that he's a bit like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde...
Blessings,
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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JodieLyn
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Kiera at a guess, I would think his emotions (intensity) are overwhelming him.. basically he's getting out of control and can't stop himself at that point.
So you need to stop him sooner and remind him that he can stay in control.
This is where I used a standing or sitting on the wall near me.. (so I can keep an eye on the process and correct it if necessary.. no talking yourself into being the victim) and basically it's totally up to them. I catch them early before it spirals out of cotnrol and let them know they need to maintain control, remove them from whatever situation by having them stand on the wall near me. And they only have to stay there until they've controlled themselves to the point where it's not just gonna explode again in the next moment. So like if the child is crying out of anger or frustration, it's not just getting that under control.. but a whole change of attitude so that the sitution doesn't deteriorate immediately that they're let go.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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Mackfam
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I do something similar to Jodie, Kiera. I have a "black bench" - a hall bench with hooks for hanging coats on. Anytime one of the children says something disrespectfully or does something disrespectful I send them to the black bench. There are no time limits on the black bench, the requirement for getting up is apologizing for the offense.
I usually send them and say something like, "We don't speak in an ugly way to mommy. please go sit on the black bench and let me know when you are ready to apologize and speak nicely again." Sometimes, that's 5 seconds, and sometimes with a particularly defiant child it can be a half hour. Either way, the requirement is a fully apology - "I'm sorry for speaking in an ugly way" or "I'm sorry for hitting you."
Like Jodie, if I notice a situation is beginning to spiral into a zone where children will have difficulty with tempers/emotions, I separate or pull children out. They're upset with me in the moment, and that's just fine! If it's one child I sit them near me on the floor. If it's all the children I send them to separate rooms for quiet. The point is to introduce the idea of noticing *WHEN* your emotions are so heated that you can no longer control them - identify the cues that come just before that and get in the habit of removing yourself from a situation in order to calm down. I guess I don't think of it as punishment, so I'm not inclined to remove privileges. The goal is to help them recognize their emotional responses and when those become unable to be maintained how to step away. This has been particularly successful for one of my older, very passionate children who still needs helpful cues not to become overwhelmed in the moment.
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Jen Mackintosh
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Can we have a "tricky" discipline thread?
