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amyable
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monique wrote:
| I really like this idea but can't seem to come up with the consequences. What would seem right for the 12 yo wouldn't necessarily be right for the 2 yo. |
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I don't know if this will help, but here are two recent threads on consequences:
Consequences - brainstorm with us
Help with consequences
monique wrote:
I can see I get easily frustrated and overwhelmed with so many different needs. Many days, I just want to throw in the towel. How do you deal with this?
Also, I know I get too emotional. How do you keep from getting so emotional? |
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Nothing from me but hugs on the first part, I get easily overwhelmed/overstimulated also. I'm going to try to institute a much stronger routine into our lives and see if that helps.
About getting emotional, I find that when I *do* have specific consequences in place for things, I have much less need to get emotional. So maybe getting that in place for you is key.
But then again, I'm not one to talk, being the one that started this whole "I'm horrible at discipline" thread.  
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Amy
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amyable
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Kathryn wrote:
| I'll throw one out here...a child that is rude. I'm struggling with what seems to me rudeness all.the.time in the tone and words spoken and the general hands on the hip, eyes rolling, making faces etc. |
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 Kathryn! I've found 9/10 a *rude* age around here for my girls.  My current almost 10yo needs MUCH mommy time to lessen it. Especially in "pampering" ways - like I'll draw her a bubble bath, or read her schoolwork to her, or have her be the one to come on errands, etc. This puts a dent in it, but it's still there.
I hope others have advice! 
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Amy
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SusanJ
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Monique,
I'm really not one to talk here because I'm the queen of emotions when my kids misbehave but reading your questions was so helpful for me because I immediately saw the answer for myself based on a technique that has worked for me in getting my home management stuff under control.
Knowing the consequence in advance helps A LOT. I know this because sometimes I see the act of disobedience coming and I can quick decide what the consequence will be so that when the child is disobedient I can calmly enforce it. The trouble is that most of the disobedience in our home comes without warning or is piled up one thing after another.
So, my approach is: Baby Steps. Take Jennifer's advice to brainstorm specific acts of disobedience that you see regularly. Then come up with consequences, maybe using the past threads linked above. I'm thinking that using the suggestion others have to lump various infractions into a few basic categories would also help to keep things simple for parents and children. Then pick one thing to work on for yourself. Only one. Don't try to tackle everything at once. Write down the act and the consequence somewhere for reference and try to be consistent.
I know we all have different styles but an example in my house would be: You throw a toy, you lose the toy. I set up a box on a high shelf, under a bed, in the basement, whatever. For a whole week (or however long/short your family needs) focus on that one thing. Then add another consequence while keeping the first one going.
Does that help? It helped me to type it up, anyway! Thanks for the thread, Amy.
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Mom to Joseph-8, Margaret-6, William-4, Gregory-2, and new little one due 11/1
Life Together
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amyable
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I'm realizing part of my problem comes from having a mental boundry, but never being quite sure if a child is crossing it, and then not having a consequence for it.
Here's today's example:
We were on a long car trip to pick up some halloween costumes at a friend's. About 45 minutes there, and an hour back. Towards the end (so they had been in the car for most of 2 hours - I know that's hard) my 4yo dropped a bag of pretzels on the floor. I politely asked one of my pre-teens to pick it up and fold it over so it wouldn't get all over the place.
Eye rolling and a big sigh from the preteen. She exclaims "I can't hold it!" (she had some books and an mp3 player on her lap, and definitely *could* have held it somehow)"what am I supposed to do with it?" "6yo, YOU hold it." 6yo, who is a dear  DID hold it and so the drama was over. Funny thing is (and this is common here) I didn't ASK for ANYONE to hold it, I only wanted it folded over and put somewhere so it wouldn't make a mess, and I specifically said as much.
I felt pre-teen crossed the line. She *does* get easily overwhelmed, but that's no excuse to be rude IMHO. All I could muster was, "I think you should go to bed early, pre-teen". Which, remarkably, did not bring an argument, but usually would have.
I had a mental "line" that I think she crossed at some nebulous point. Then, I didn't know what was an appropriate consequence. Stress ensued.
Between the two pre-teens always bickering (much like they talked to me, above) and scenes like the above, there is *drama* here 80% of the time it seems. I *hate* it, and it's bad for everyone in my opinion. But I'm 4 conversational turns into something before I realize, "HEY, my blood pressure's rising, what is going on here? This is rude and NOT how I would have spoken to my sibling or an adult."
Does anyone know what I'm saying?
Part of me wants them to only say "Yes Mom" to anything I say, and the other part of me thinks that's ridiculous and no way to develop relationships. But if I allow talking, I get rudeness! Ah, the joy of girls!
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Amy
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monique
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OH, Amy, yes I know what you are saying. My two oldest (12yo & 10 yo) bicker constantly! The 10yo and 8 yo are always "potty talking". Then the 2 yo is constantly crying or wanting to nurse. Oh, the drama! And the anger....I'm always thinking, Calgon take me away! I get sucked into all this drama/anger too! I can get up and be in a great mood, ready to start my day and if someone else gets up and is grumpy or starts fighting, there goes my mood--right out the window!
LOL! The joy of girls! I have four boys and only one girl!
Susan, I love your idea of one consequence at a time! Now, to get DH on board. Maybe we should have a Consequence of the Week! Hee hee!
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Monique
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A simple consequence especially for those nebulous did it really cross the line is it my perception or their tone times.. simply have them "please repeat your answer repectfully." The goal being after having to repeat themselves every time.. they'll skip it and just say it properly the first time
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JodieLyn
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And once they know what's expected.. "Want to try again?" or "Excuse me?" will also get them to think oops I better repeat that respectfully.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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amyable
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JodieLyn wrote:
And once they know what's expected.. "Want to try again?" or "Excuse me?" will also get them to think oops I better repeat that respectfully.
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We do that (happy that I'm on the right track, at least! ). Guess I was hoping that they would eventually get the hint and not NEED it 457 times a day. I've noticed in other areas my children are willing to do the time as long as they can commit the crime!
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SuzanneG
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amyable wrote:
| But I'm 4 conversational turns into something before I realize, "HEY, my blood pressure's rising, what is going on here? This is rude and NOT how I would have spoken to my sibling or an adult." |
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There is nothing wrong with this. You don't HAVE to respond to everything "right away"....sometimes I wish I didn't react so quickly and notice every little thing so quickly and JUMP RIGHT ON IT. It's not always a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with 10 minutes later, in the car addressing the scenario with everyone. "Hey, XXX....when I asked you to pick-up the pretzels, I was sad about the tone of voice you used. It was disrespectful. I'm going to pretend the pretzels fell on the floor again, and we're going to have a do-over in a couple minutes while you think of how you might want to respond this time. " Wait a couple minutes and then try again.
Would she respond to that? Or would she balk at it? We can brainstorm ideas to take it a step further, if you think she would balk at it.
But, back to the original point.....don't think that because you didn't "do something" immediately, that you can't go back.....YOU CAN!!!!! In fact, in some cases it may be even more effective!!!!
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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amyable wrote:
| 6yo, who is a dear DID hold it and so the drama was over. |
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And, I don't mean to just "add things to your steno-notebook-list" , but helping this child to stand firm against the others will be important for the next 20 years. Coaching her to hold-her-own and not be bullied, will actually solve *some* of the challenges with the other girls.
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Suzanne in ID
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amyable
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SuzanneG wrote:
amyable wrote:
| 6yo, who is a dear DID hold it and so the drama was over. |
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And, I don't mean to just "add things to your steno-notebook-list" ... |
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I think I need a 3-inch binder at this point.
Seriously though, I think my 6-yo is *happy* to be helpful. She is an amazing child, and often sees right through the older kids drama. I think she saw that she could hold them and so was happy to take the high road. She does stand her ground when she doesn't want to do something. Not that you needed to know all that. But I see how a person CAN be in her, and it makes me realize just how bad the others are sometimes!! 
And about addressing the pre-teen in a calm moment after a few minutes have passed -- it works sometimes. Often she'll come to me later, however, and say she found it humiliating to be singled out for a talking to in front of her sisters. I get that, but finding an alone moment is hard, and when I discuss it with her she just comes up with 100 excuses about why she was talking the way she did. She *does* apologize, but doesn't slow down the behavior.
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Amy
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Angel
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amyable wrote:
Seriously though, I think my 6-yo is *happy* to be helpful. She is an amazing child, and often sees right through the older kids drama. I think she saw that she could hold them and so was happy to take the high road. She does stand her ground when she doesn't want to do something. Not that you needed to know all that. But I see how a person CAN be in her, and it makes me realize just how bad the others are sometimes!!
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Hmmm... I have a child like this. My dh once thanked this child for being so kind and helpful and *cough* calm, and the child replied, "Well, if I wasn't calm and helpful, then NOBODY would be calm and helpful." Ouch. Unfortunately, 9 times out of 10, the child is right. So, often if I see that this child is taking on more than a fair share of work, etc., and siblings are being uncooperative because they know that child will do it... I'll make a point later of telling the siblings to thank the child or I'll make sure when I ask someone to do something that is not part of the regular chore rotation (and this could be, "please help the 2 yo wipe up his spill) that another child does it.
ETA: I deleted most of this because I'm not sure it was really relevant and was mostly just me blathering on...
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Angela
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Angel
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Oh, and coming back to add... on the subject of , "when one child is consistently more helpful than the others"... I do find that making a point of catching the other kids doing kind, helpful, or otherwise *good* things and praising them for those acts goes a long way toward improving the general level of niceness in our home.  I also don't want the other kids to resent the more helpful kid, so I have to be really careful here, in two ways... that the other kids don't come to see that child as "the good one" and that I don't let the other kids' behavioral issues make me overreact when the generally helpful child does something wrong.
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Angela
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I use the "Would you like to re-phrase that in a more respectful way?" approach frequently. In fact, I used it less than 5 minutes ago!
In the case of the "could you please pick up the pretzels and hold onto it" example...one example of a natural consequence would be...
no emotion, stated kindly, but firmly...
Quote:
| Would you like to rephrase your response in a respectful way? You don't have to like what I request, but you do have to be obedient and respectful. |
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possible response...
** eye roll
** huff of exasperation
My further response...still unemotional and matter of fact...
Quote:
| I'm sorry that you're unable to hold the bag. Please pass your mp3 player forward and I'll hold onto that for you so that you have more room to hold the bag of pretzels. |
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If I still got the huff of exasperation I'd pull over and make an impression. I'd gently remove the mp3 player from her possession and let her know that if her hands are too full to help me out cheerfully then I will ensure that her hands are empty and available. Mp3 is mine until further notice.
And this doesn't have to be immediate...in your scenario...you're driving down the road, several exchanges have taken place, you recognize that your blood pressure is going up, you fire off a quick prayer to your guardian angel and the child's, and you begin very calmly...
Quote:
| You know, the way you responded to my request to pick up the pretzels was very disrespectful. Would you like to re-phrase your response in a respectful way? |
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And then I'd proceed just as above if there was still huffing and disrespect - pull over and remove the mp3.
BUT...what if she responded to your invitation with more respect, but still negatively?
If a more appropriately phrased response was offered in a respectful way then by all means - ENGAGE!!! This scenario is about respect and obedience. So, if your dd says >> all without THE TONE! <<
Quote:
| Mom, you handed me all these books to hold onto and I feel loaded down and like you're always asking me to pick something up. |
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This is the time for dialogue. It's fine to offer an apology. I drop the ball all the time in parenting and I'm fine with apologizing when my kids point out to me in a kind, respectful way that they feel overloaded/stressed or that I'm expecting/asking too much. I also don't mind pointing out the obvious...so in this example I might say something like this...
Quote:
| I'm sorry. I was overwhelmed with our errands today, and sometimes I feel so grateful that you're here to help me that I accidentally take advantage of your kindness. I really do appreciate your help, and I'll try not to take advantage of it. Please forgive me and thank you for telling me in a kind way so that I can say a prayer and try to be better. Now, could you please pass the books forward and pick up the pretzels for me or hand them to your sister? |
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All belongings and possessions in our house are subject to house rules! So, even if they have been gifted or purchased with child's own money, it is CLEARLY understood that house rules trump and all possessions fall under dad and my jurisdiction. Period. Thus, if toy/electronic/clothing is a distraction and obstacle to obedience - I remove the obstacle.
Now...having offered the above I wanted to say that 9.9 times out of 10 the "would you like to rephrase that in a more polite/respectful way?" approach works just fine and circumvents the need for a firm consequence for the older child. BUT...if you've got some entrenched disrespect issues goin' it might take a few times of calling their bluff to convince them that you mean business. They don't have to like it, but they do have to be respectful and obedient!
AND...one more thing I thought of...don't fall for the head bobbing, eye rolling, snotty speaking, "I don't care about that old mp3 player" manipulation. Don't engage in that at all! Just say, "Fine." And move on. Try to offer a logical consequence - like in this scenario your dd argued that her hands were full...logic says, empty the hands. It might take you a bit to think of a logical consequence and that's ok. But, if you can't think of a logical consequence, just think of a painful consequence. Brainstorm them ahead of time...in case of emergency...follow through with removal of mp3 privileges for the next 24 hours. Just follow through. The important point being made is - you are in authority - you deserve respect - you will offer one do-over - then, you will meet them with a consequence. Every.single.time.
This is where that brainstorming I was talking about earlier comes into play. If you've spent some time with this with your husband, you can role play concrete consequences that are likely to be painful - mp3 loss, computer time loss, any privilege loss. If there is a loss of respect, there is a loss of privilege. This serves a few purposes for me. It serves to provide a sense of pain and consequence, and it serves to keep them closer to me. Yes! Closer! If you're emptying their love tank with focused discipline measures like this, you're going to need to add back in heaps! One of my favorite books on this is Ross Campbell's How to Really Love Your Child. Just keep in mind that you need to keep that love tank full all the time, but be especially mindful if you're focusing on habit training in this way! You already mentioned that you're doing some "mommy pampering" things...that's awesome! Keep doing that in whatever each individual daughter's love language is!
Are we getting closer, Amy? Do you still feel completely overwhelmed and as if you'd be totally full of internal questions in a scenario? Throw another one at us!
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Jen Mackintosh
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JodieLyn
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Quote:
| don't fall for the head bobbing, eye rolling, snotty speaking, "I don't care about that old mp3 player" manipulation |
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This means the consequence hit the mark if you don't care about it, you just let it go and think nothing of it.. it's when it hurts that you try and convince others that it doesn't hurt.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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Angel
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Is there an older thread on how to remain calm in the face of discipline issues? I did a search, but I think I am having a brain lapse and maybe not searching with the right terms.
As I read Jen and Suzanne's replies, I think that maybe one of my particular problems is that while I can maintain my calm for a certain length of time, there comes a point at which I will just lose it.
Of course, reading this thread I do also realize how COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the discipline issues are for boys than girls and am thinking I have no right to be here at all because I have VERY LITTLE experience with the girl issues. Fist fights in the backseat, yes, eye rolling, not so much...
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Angela
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JodieLyn
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Fist fights in the backseat... that might come under when I tell the entire van to sit on their hands.. the shut the mouth part is for the girls.. and yes I make them stay that way until a small amount of sanity returns.. not that there's ever that much around
It's my last ditch before mom comes unglued strategy.. which is probably why it works.. they know they're dangling by a thread and aren't eager to break it.
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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MichelleW
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Amy,
I am a shades of gray person. Nothing is ever black and white for me, and I find that to be a problem when parenting. I get where you are.
Some things I realized for our family, I don't know if any of these would work for you:
-If it bothers me, even if I can't put my finger on exactly what was wrong with the behavior, I have found that I am usually correct in discerning that the child did not act respectfully. So, now I say something like, "I am getting a disrespectful vibe from you right now. Let's both pause a for minute and then try again."
-I try to never negotiate with a disrespectful child. If the conversation is getting uncomfortable, the child can sit in his/her room for a few minutes to regroup. I tend to be an emotional person and I understand the value of disciplining without being emotional. It is a protection for me as well as the child so that the words that come from my mouth will cultivate and nurture instead of tear down.
With the earphone thing, I would probably have said something like, "It seems to me that your focus during this conversation was more on you than on what I was saying to you. I am not comfortable lending my earphones to you at this time." My kids know me pretty well. They know that they can come back and talk to me and that I really do want to lend them my things and that I really do want them to try again.
We had a discussion once about how hormones might make them more self-centered as they enter their teen years. My oldest is 12 now, and we often start to sing "It's all about meeeeeeee....and all this is for meeeee..." that always brings a laugh and then usually the child tries to defend himself by saying, "I was just...because I wanted..." and then realizing he really was being self-centered really laughs. It has been helpful to have that song in my back pocket since we had the conversation.
-I try to never discipline in public, BUT I don't consider my immediate family to be the "public." As much as possible we do try to preserve a child's dignity, but when a child needs to be reminded, or "debriefed" in front of siblings then that is usually the result of the child having chosen a bad place to behave badly (ugh, horrible grammar...) and I can't feel guilty for the choice he/she has made.
-I try to break up emotionally charged situations from neutral ones. So, instead of linking the end of lunch to rest, I would probably stick something fun at the end of lunch. So maybe, lunch goes from time x to time y. At time y we do clean up and then do something fun for 15 minutes. Then rest time. Your dd will still try to manipulate you, but at least it won't be tied to food (definitely want to break that connection).
I used to crochet or knit or read in or around my kid's rooms during rest time. We all rested together. This seemed to take some of the sting of "what am I missing" out of the rest time. You situation is different...I don't know if a quiet house for an hour or so would work for you.
I am going to press "post" though I am not sure that any of this will be at all helpful. For what it's worth, I don't think you need to "do better" so much as figure out who you all are and how you all can function together more smoothly.
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Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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Mackfam
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As if I had not gone on long enough...
Angel wrote:
| what do you do when consequences don't work??? |
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This depends so much on the age and the individual child...if it's a girl or a boy...again...it calls for brainstorming with the man that knows them almost ( ) as well as you!
For a younger child, my consequences are usually re-do's until it is done right, or simple work tasks to atone. (See the consequences thread linked above for some great ideas!!!)
** Assist with obedience - If you don't do what mommy asks, I'm going to help you. (use hands, place on child's hands ****NO EMOTION**** do task) Thank you - this is how mommy likes the chair pushed in.
** Offer re-do - We don't tell Mommy *No*. Would you like to try again? Re-state command.
** In case of a fit thrown - We don't throw fits when Mommy asks us to push the chair in...go sit **wherever you normally do time outs** until you are done throwing the fit and then you will push the chair in. It doesn't matter if they sit for 3 hours!!!!! They sit until they are ready to 1) apologize for throwing the fit and 2) push the chair in (or whatever they were supposed to do)
For an even slightly older child - I'd add this:
** Simple consequence - (Assuming you offered a re-do and it was met with disrespect) You were unkind when you spoke to me. Please go **do whatever I just asked you to do** and then wipe down all the baseboards in the kitchen with a baby wipe.
I try to be very simple and clear with the littlers - IF/THEN.
Quote:
| IF...you speak in an unkind way to mommy...THEN...you will wipe down all the baseboards while the other kids go outside and play. Would you like to try again? |
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I would argue that there is ALWAYS a consequence that is a drag for a child to accomplish. Find it!!!!!! It doesn't always have to be removal of something...if that's not a big deal...how 'bout wiping down all the toilets? emptying and wiping down the fridge? mopping the kitchen?
I have a few strategies for staying calm in the face of discipline:
Strategy 1
I brainstorm A LOT when I'm faced with these kinds of things. (See previous post of mine!) Brainstorming lets me have solutions in my back pocket and I don't feel so overwhelmed in the moment. Think of the Army - they rehearse scenarios over and over again in training so that their response in the *real thing* is immediate, comes easily, and can be done almost in their sleep. This is the benefit of brainstorming with my husband. I get rid of all the emotion with him...we isolate down to the essential problem...work on solutions...brainstorm consequences...rehearse scenarios and I feel more equipped and less emotional in the moment.
Strategy 2
I only allow for a finite level of escalation...
** Offer re-do
** State consequence
** Follow through - don't engage manipulation
Strategy 3
I have adopted the habit of dropping my voice to a quieter level when I discipline and this strategy helps me maintain an even tone. You can still speak in an unkind, mad way in a quieter voice, so this is just a tool, it still requires some self-discipline on my part. It took time to develop this habit in myself, but it was worth it...and I'm sooo not perfect at it! I'll confess that I'm a 0 to 100 kind of mom normally. When I say quieter, I don't mean **soft, sweet** I mean just a bit quieter than my normal inside voice. The goal is to speak in an un-emotional, matter of fact way. If my tendency is to start to raise my voice because I'm coming unglued (and it is) then I work on forming the habit of taking the level of my voice in the opposite direction...quieter...a tool for helping me stay calm.
Strategy 4
I do have a breaking point! Like Jodie...my kids know when I'm close. I let them know I'm close and call for separation (separate rooms for cool downs for everyone) or TOTAL SILENCE if we're on the road. And, I mean TOTAL!!!! Sit on hands - all eyes looking out a window (important for girls who love to glare and do the non-verbal beating up on siblings!) - no sound!!!
And now...I'm off to strategize dinner!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Willa
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Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
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| Posted: Oct 29 2009 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
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Angel wrote:
| As I read Jen and Suzanne's replies, I think that maybe one of my particular problems is that while I can maintain my calm for a certain length of time, there comes a point at which I will just lose it. |
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I try to save "losing it" for when I really need it. I think it works...sometimes! but not when it's an everyday thing.
I notice that I come closest to losing it involuntarily when I feel helpless or trapped or that I don't know how to solve the issue. So planning out a strategy of containment for the key issues is really helpful. And the strategy can't contain an emotional component.
I always think "action -- not reaction". If the consequence, delivered without emotion, isn't enough to stop the behavior, then I think of something else. But it has to be something that I can follow through on, that's harder for them than for me.
If my emotions are way over-triggered about something, I try to think about what's REALLY going on. I'm sorry, that's not always immediately practical, but a lot of triggers come from one's own background and temperament, not directly from the actual thing itself, which actually might be sort of funny and trivial -- most disciplinary issues are....
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Can we have a "tricky" discipline thread?
