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Lisbet
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Books - I think it's a fancy Irish-y name for buttermilk? Thickened milk, slightly sour? I could be wrong.
This thread has been so great for me, as I am learning and leaning toward a Dexter in the spring!
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SusanJ
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Buttermilk is the liquid left over from making butter. You can culture it the same way you can culture regular milk to make yogurt (and in the same way--just add some buttermilk from the store or the last batch) and it gets thicker and more sour.
Clabber is what you get when you just leave raw milk out on the counter for a day or two. Apparently it's even better if the milk has never been chilled. I said I wasn't squeamish before but I have never been able to try this. In our old co-op there were a couple families who had arranged with the farmer to get milk that had never been chilled and they were always posting annoyed messages to our board rebuking the "thoughtful" people who had put the milk into the coolers. People take their clabber very seriously  .
Then, pardon my ingnorance, is a Dexter a kind of cow? That would be so cool to have a family cow. We are hard-core urbanites but I kind of wish we had friends with a family cow or something. Actually we learned recently that our neighborhood has no zoning laws so it would be totally legal for us to "farm" here. Given that our yard is 100% concrete I don't think we'll go to the trouble :) But I did very briefly consider a few chickens (a neighbor has some in his garage).
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Lisbet
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Thanks for clearing that up Susan - I have a few books coming from Amazon on keeping a family cow - we will have 2 acres, so just enough to keep one or two. Dexters are small multipurpose cows - only needed 1/2 an acre to graze. I am SO new to all of this - but I'm very excited about learning.
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Bookswithtea
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Lisbet wrote:
| we will have 2 acres, so just enough to keep one or two. Dexters are small multipurpose cows - only needed 1/2 an acre to graze. I am SO new to all of this - but I'm very excited about learning. |
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Really? We have 2 1/2 acres and have been told more than once that we really don't have enough land for a cow. Is there something different about Dexters?
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Lisbet
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Books - here is a short article: Dexters
Everything I've read says 1/2 per cow...
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Bookswithtea
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Lisbet wrote:
Books - here is a short article: Dexters
Everything I've read says 1/2 per cow... |
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Lisbet, you have made my day! I have read about miniatures, but they still need an acre, from what I can tell. I didn't know there was a naturally small cow available! I might be able to eventually fence 2 x 1/4 acre spaces and rotate, if I can convince hubby to fence an area in the front of the house. I don't see the big deal, as neighbors have horse land in the front of their houses, but dh will remind me that they also have 18 acres, compared to our 2ish. 
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Bookswithtea
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SusanJ wrote:
Clabber is what you get when you just leave raw milk out on the counter for a day or two. Apparently it's even better if the milk has never been chilled. I said I wasn't squeamish before but I have never been able to try this. In our old co-op there were a couple families who had arranged with the farmer to get milk that had never been chilled and they were always posting annoyed messages to our board rebuking the "thoughtful" people who had put the milk into the coolers. People take their clabber very seriously . |
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Well, ~learn something new every day! I had no idea that soured never chilled raw milk is a delicacy! 
BTW, a few chickens are no trouble at all, but you won't get the dark almost gold colored yolks without a patch of grass. Do you have an area where you could move a little chicken tractor?
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Thanks for the chicken encouragement--we really don't have space. Our neighborhood is very dense and my kids play in our driveway and the small parking area next door (might sound awful but since my son is in a wheelchair it's actually pretty ideal for him). But since we can't raise food ourselves we are trying to get our food locally as much as we can. I just now got off the phone with a farm an hour away that has a CSA model where you pay upfront and then just come get as much food as you need each week. They are working towards being almost the sole food source for all members. Sounds cool--and they even "share" their raw milk with members! No more driving to a neighboring state.
Hope family cows work out for you, Books and Lisa. That sounds like a great adventure for a family.
Susan
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Bookswithtea
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SusanJ wrote:
I just now got off the phone with a farm an hour away that has a CSA model where you pay upfront and then just come get as much food as you need each week. They are working towards being almost the sole food source for all members. Sounds cool--and they even "share" their raw milk with members! No more driving to a neighboring state.
Susan |
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This sounds awesome!
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Bookswithtea
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I forgot to ask, what happens to yogurt make that is not homogenized? What does the fat do?
Also, I am having a hard time making full fat yogurt that is thick enough without the addition of powdered milk (I'm trying to avoid that addition after reading about how bad it is for you). I guess I could strain it into greek yogurt? If you have any experience using either raw or pasteurized but un-homogenized milk and yogurt making, I'd be grateful to hear about it.
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The fat/cream just rises to the top. I use pasteurized, unhomogenized milk for yogurt-making.
Re the powdered milk being bad for you -- we don't do that, but this is the first I've heard of it. I'm curious -- mind sharing where you read it?
I also strain it to make Greek-style yogurt. And I've found that straining my yogurt that I use for starter before I add it to the heated milk also makes for thicker yogurt, probably because there's a higher concentration of cultures?
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Maggie
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Booksnbabes wrote:
| We just started getting raw cow's milk this summer, and we love it! In our state it can be sold if the purchaser picks it up from the dairy, but cannot be sold in stores or transported by the seller. We had been buying organic from Whole Foods, and since we try to do our shopping every two weeks, we'd stock up. Well, by the end of that two weeks, the last gallons of homogenized, pasteurized milk were often spoiled, even though unopened and not yet to their expiration date. We felt we were dumping our money down the drain. |
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This has happened to us as well when purchasing milk from Whole Foods!! Did you know they have a 100% guarantee noquestions asked!! We have taken spoiled milk back on more than one occassion. Only once did the customer service lady get snippy and said we "must not be used to the taste of organic milk." Well...we've been drinking organic for almost 4 years...
So...if anything from Whole Foods goes bad...or even if you plain just don't like it, you can take it back.
We would love to do RAW milk, but for us, it is logistically difficult to procure, though, we have a good source...and it is TERRIBLY EXPENSIVE. $12 per GALLON and $6 per HALF GALLON!!!
Our friend in MA could get hers for $5 per gallon!!
Yikes...
During pregnancy, I would be a bit more wary due to wysteria concerns, etc...but I haven't researched it enough to really know either way.
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Bookswithtea
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stefoodie wrote:
The fat/cream just rises to the top. I use pasteurized, unhomogenized milk for yogurt-making.
Re the powdered milk being bad for you -- we don't do that, but this is the first I've heard of it. I'm curious -- mind sharing where you read it?
I also strain it to make Greek-style yogurt. And I've found that straining my yogurt that I use for starter before I add it to the heated milk also makes for thicker yogurt, probably because there's a higher concentration of cultures? |
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Re the powdered milk: According to Real Food, the milk is not naturally dehydrated. Its spray dried. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but the gist is that the drying process leads to damaged cholesterols. I'm probably not explaining it right. 
Do you use your own yogurt to start the next batch? I bought a box of starters when I first got my yogurtmaker and I still have a few left so I haven't had to use yogurt as a starter before. I think I only have about 2 or 3 pkgs left.
Re the straining: you just put the yogurt in a cheesecloth lined strainer over a bowl in the fridge for awhile, right? I've never done it before, but I absolutely love Greek yogurt and would love to make my own. What happens to the cream at the top if you strain it? Plus, the watery stuff that comes out is whey that I can use in smoothies, right?
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The powdered milk explanation sounds right to me. I confess to using pasteurized milk for my yogurt. I try to get grass-fed, unhomogenized when I can. When I make yogurt I heat the milk first to 180 degrees which is necessary with pasteurized milk to kill off anything bad. Then you add in good cultures to make yogurt. With raw milk heating it to that point is not necessary and will actually neutralize the benefits of using the raw milk in the first place because you kill off all the natural cultures. BUT, if you only heat it to 120 then you get runny yogurt. And I find that the yogurt is pretty runny even after 180 anyway. So I just buy a good pasteurized milk for making yogurt and figure that I'm culturing it anyway.
But my raw milk is actually a little cheaper to buy so if anyone has a great raw milk yogurt method without powdered milk I am all ears. Maybe I should give clabber a try
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I generally use Organic Valley Milk Powder in my yogurt to thicken. I buy it in bulk though. I read that you could also use unflavored gelatin to thicken as well. That might be an option for thickening raw milk yogurt without the use of milk powders.
Here's what I have written down in my yogurt book - 1 Tablespoon or 1/4 oz of unflavored gelatin with a little milk until it has dissolved, then add to cold milk and continue making yogurt.
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Re the powdered milk: According to Real Food, the milk is not naturally dehydrated. Its spray dried. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but the gist is that the drying process leads to damaged cholesterols. I'm probably not explaining it right. |
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hmmm... thanks for the info, will have to file that in my mental folder for when needed :D
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| Do you use your own yogurt to start the next batch? |
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yes.
i have a box of starters too because it went on sale at the co-op, and at the time i was planning to buy a yogurt maker. then found the crockpot yogurt recipe online and i've been making it that way since. i might try the starter finally one of these days.
Quote:
| Re the straining: you just put the yogurt in a cheesecloth lined strainer over a bowl in the fridge for awhile, right? I've never done it before, but I absolutely love Greek yogurt and would love to make my own. What happens to the cream at the top if you strain it? Plus, the watery stuff that comes out is whey that I can use in smoothies, right? |
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yes. it's sooooo yummy. specially topped with honey or maple syrup. heavenly.
the cream at the top just mixes in -- i consider it my "extra treat" kinda like whipped cream on top of ice cream :D -- prior to this i liked buying "cream on top" yogurt, so it's the same thing.
ps i don't even do the cheesecloth thing. coffee filter+sieve is how i do it.
i also use it as "cream cheese". it doesn't taste EXACTLY like cream cheese, but very very close. we get our milk from snowville creamery.
if several family members didn't have dairy allergies i would totally do the raw milk thing -- i only buy a half gallon for myself for yogurt and buy it every couple of weeks, so wouldn't justify purchasing a share... dh is wary now of trying raw milk or giving it to the kids, but he drank it as a child -- totally fresh from the cow, as in they actually squeeze the cow's milk into a glass, did the same thing with water buffaloes (source of authentic mozzarella di bufala) -- and my parents did too.
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Bookswithtea
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I just got back from grocery shopping and checked out what was available locally. Very little.  I can get ultrapasteurized organic milk (what's the point in that?) and Stonyfield yogurt, but not whole milk yogurt. Hmph. Headed into the big city tomorrow to see what I can find in the way of grassfed/unhomogenized on the shelf. I'm glad to hear that its not necessarily worth it to use raw milk in yogurt. That way I don't feel so bad about it!
I've used gelatin before and it does work well. My best recipe was half gallon whole milk plus one pkt unflavored gelatin and 1 cup dry milk powder. This turned out fabulously and was the perfect consistency and thickness. I also added 1/2 c. sugar and 2T vanilla... 5 kids pronounced it yummy (one refuses to eat yogurt). My new plan will be to add sweetener afterwards, either maple syrup (I have an Amish connection that makes this affordable) or some local honey.
Does anyone know if processed gelatin is bad for you???
I wonder if the milk powder produced by the link Jen posted means that its ok??? That would be convenient, especially given I'm not using it in anything but yogurt.
I'm also on the hunt tomorrow for a better quality cheese. I have a feeling raw cheese is going to be too expensive, given that we easily eat 15 lbs or more of cheese a month. If I can find something affordable that is at least not soaked in orange dye that would be an improvement. Plus, I'm craving that bite in real cheese, lately.
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ShawnaB
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Hi Books, I am sorry to be coming so late to this discussion! We've been living the home dairy thing for a year now, with 2 goats and now 2 jersey cows. Its been so fun, and the learning curve is steep, not only for keeping the animals but also using the milk!
I did want to offer a little of what I have learned on the safety of raw milk. I hear what you are saying about getting milk from your neighbors. We are in the same situation...just a few animals, and we share the milk with people close to us. It is a TOTALLY different model than a dairy.
I've researched this extensively, as we feed this milk to our children, and to others who we love. If I were not producing the milk myself, and was getting it from a neighbor, here are the questions I would ask/things I would look for:
1. Are these people generally clean? Do they tend to be fairly organized and responsible in general, and knowledgeable in the practice of home dairying? I would not purchase milk from a neighbor who was a scatterbrain or a messy. Avoiding contamination when milking is not complicated, but it does require a plan, some attention to detail, and a general appreciation for cleanliness.
2. What is their plan for avoiding manure contamination in the milk. Most harmful bacteria that can be found in milk gets there from manure getting into the milking pail. Do they wash down/groom the cow/goat before milking? Are their facilities clean where the milking takes place? Do the animals have plenty of space to that they are healthy and not covered in manure when they come in to milk?
3. What is their procedure for washing down their milking equipment? If they use a machine, it should be thoroughly cleaned after each use. If using a pail and hand milking, the pail and strainer should be stainless steel, and washed down and air dried after each use. Do they regularly wash their hands before milking and handling the milk?
4. Do they have a way to quickly cool the milk after milking? This is a big one. According to the dairy lab I spoke to, this is the best preventative measure one can take in avoiding bacterial contamination in raw milk. After milking, the milk should be cooled immediately in the refridgerator...not left in the barn for 15 minutes while the chores are finished.
As far as testing the animals, I have to say that for families with herds of just a few cows or goats, the risk of contracting a disease from the animals through their milk is slim to none. In tiny, closed herds, the goats/cows risk of exposure is almost 0. In California, all dairy cows are vaccinated for Brucellosis, and are tested yearly for TB. Another test is available for a disease called Johne's (pronounced Yonni's) that may or may not be able to be spread to humans. However, if your friends' cow is not sick, and is not in contact with other sick cows, the chances of her having these diseases is slim. If she purchased the cow at an auction sale, and it come from unknown origens, hopefully she had a vet check the cow out and perform the recommended test prior to her family drinking the milk.
Mastitis is another concern. If a cow/goat has a bad infection in the udder, is can raise the totally bacteria count in the milk and could possible make someone sick. However, when a person is sitting next to one cow or goat everyday, hand milking, it would be nearly impossible to miss a case of mastitis. It is detectable by the look and feel of the udder, as well as the consistancy of the milk.
So in general, many of the potential risked posed by raw milk that is produced commercially can be reduced or eliminated by extremely small scale production.
I hope that helps. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.
Shawna
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Bookswithtea
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Shawna, this is very helpful. I honestly don't know if anyone is doing all the things you listed, with their goats, anyway. My one friend uses baby wipes to wash the goats teats before milking into a stainless bucket. If icky stuff gets in the pail, she probably just feeds it to the chickens. Her barn is cleaner than my other friends barn, but not as clean as I would like it to be. They aren't scatterbrained, but they are the kind of people who are very busy, probably take on too much, and rarely get around to mopping their floors (no judgment here, just trying to be honest). They do love their animals. I think they just strain the milk, put it into canning jars and stick it in the fridge. I read somewhere that if you stick the jars (or the stainless pail) in a sinkful of ice water first, it'll cool a lot faster than in a jar in the fridge. I don't know the mom with the cow well enough, but I suspect they are more careful than the other two moms I know. That said, both of these moms with the goats have been selling/drinking their own milk for years now and no one has ever gotten sick. I guess that's why I'm not sure just how clean it all has to be???
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ShawnaB
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Books, all of these "safety" procedures can be very low tech...just soap and water for washing buckets and hands, and even udders. Baby wipes work.
Here's the thing...any food you consume carries the risk of food poisening. In fact, if you ever eat in a restaurant, you are definitely taking that chance. And here's a few other common sense things to consider:
The chance of salmonella or ecoli contamination high enough to make you sick in milk is relatively low. Even if manure gets into the milk and you consumed it, gross as it is, chances are that the manure does not have pathenogenic ecoli present. Most manure does not (not that I want to eat it though). And, if by chance you did consume a high count of ecoli or salmonella, enough to make you sick, it is highly probable that you will not die, but rather make a full recover. Many people get ecoli every year and don't even know they have it...they just figure they have a little stomach "bug", in which case they do!
The FDA makes it sound like consuming raw milk is extremely dangerous. It is my opinion that it is not. People have been sharing milk with animals for generations.
In modern times, when milk production was commercialized, animals kept in close concentration and filthy conditions, fed an unnatural diet, there was not refridgeration...yes people got sick, and pasteurization was life-saving. Rampant antibiotic use made things worse by killing off all but the most resistant bugs.
But on the small farm run by people with common sense, my opinion is that you can confidently drink that milk. Its actually a wonderfully, healthy food source, and it delicious. If you have neighbors willing to provide it to you, I say go for it!
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4Real Forums : Our Lady's Loom, Larder, and Laundry
Topic: Raw Milk
