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SuzanneG
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Mattie wrote:
| Oh, could you please give me your titles on Saint Lucia, my youngest's name is Lucie and I have such a hard time finding books! |
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St. Lucia/Lucy Day Books
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Mackfam
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crunchymom wrote:
| if I were to give my children stockings on a Sunday, the excitement over getting presents would definitely trump going to mass for them, and the emphasis of the day would be on "St. Nicholas brought me candy today" rather than remembering the day as significant for itself. |
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I appreciated hearing that, Lindsay. I'll need to pray about our plans a little more.
I'm wondering about a vigil celebration, on Saturday evening for St. Lucy and St. Nicholas? I know both celebrations are traditionally morning celebrations. Do you think this would be an option?
I'm brainstorming here...please tell me if I'm totally off track!!!
St. Nicholas - Vigil on December 5
From Father Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs
Quote:
| "In many parts of Europe children still receive his "visit" on the eve of his feast. Impersonated by a man wearing a long white beard, dressed in the vestments of a bishop, with miter and crozier, he appears in the homes as a heavenly messenger. Coming at the start of Advent, he admonishes the children to prepare their hearts for a blessed and holy Christmas. He examines their prayers. After exhorting them to be good, he distributes fruit and candy and departs wit a kindly farewell, leaving the little ones filled with holy awe." |
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We don't usually do a dressed up St. Nicholas, but we could try to work on a costume. I think that would be fun! We do read favorite books culminating on the evening of Dec. 5. I'm wondering if we could clean the house very well that Saturday, and set out stockings that morning (that way the children would have some enjoyable time anticipating them). After family prayers, they could be handed out to the children filled with goodies.
St. Lucy - Vigil on December 12
** Candlelit dinner.
** Rosary by candlelight.
** Family *pretends* to sleep on the couch after family prayers (is this too hokey?) and youngest girl brings in coffee and cakes for dessert that evening which we eat by candlelight.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on a celebration for these feasts on the vigil - the evening before. My only thought on that is that Saturday evening time is usually used to prepare the family for the holy day of Sunday that approaches (or rather it is supposed to be - it's rather frantic here with baths, nail clipping frenzy, ironing Sunday clothes, etc.) I could still accomplish those practical things (with a little time spent anticipating and organizing the day better) along with a celebration of a feast with our traditions in the evening, but do you all feel it still trespasses on time that should be spent preparing for Sunday Mass?
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St. Ann
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Mackfarm wrote:
I'm wondering about a vigil celebration, on Saturday evening for St. Lucy and St. Nicholas? I know both celebrations are traditionally morning celebrations. Do you think this would be an option?
St. Nicholas - Vigil on December 5
From Father Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs
[quote]"In many parts of Europe children still receive his "visit" on the eve of his feast. Impersonated by a man wearing a long white beard, dressed in the vestments of a bishop, with miter and crozier, he appears in the homes as a heavenly messenger. Coming at the start of Advent, he admonishes the children to prepare their hearts for a blessed and holy Christmas. He examines their prayers. After exhorting them to be good, he distributes fruit and candy and departs wit a kindly farewell, leaving the little ones filled with holy awe." |
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Yes, my first experiences of St. Nikolaus here in Germany were just as Father describes above. Even without a "St. Nikolaus" we gathered the children and family friends and their children for a "gemuetlich" evening, reliving the life of St. Nikolaus through stories and song. Hot cocoa, Gluehwein, Lebkuchen....winter goodies around the advent wreath. It isn't necessary to hang up your stocking. The more memorable part is the evening before.
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donnalynn
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St. Ann
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I'm sorry. I couldn't make the quote thingy work.
The first part of my post above was a quote from MackFam.
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JennGM
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SuzanneG wrote:
| [QUOTE=Mattie]Oh, could you please give me your titles on Saint Lucia, my youngest's name is Lucie and I have such a hard time finding books! |
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Here are my recommendations
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
crunchymom wrote:
| if I were to give my children stockings on a Sunday, the excitement over getting presents would definitely trump going to mass for them, and the emphasis of the day would be on "St. Nicholas brought me candy today" rather than remembering the day as significant for itself. |
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I appreciated hearing that, Lindsay. I'll need to pray about our plans a little more. |
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Well, if I might argue with myself, I also wouldn't not celebrate a birthday if it fell on a Sunday, yk?
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JennGM
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donnalynn wrote:
I'm a little confused - if it is not ok to have a Saint's celebration on Sunday, is it ok to bump another saint to put St. Nicholas on another day?
I have:
Thursday Dec. 3rd - St. Francis Xavier
Friday Dec. 4th - St. John Damascene
Saturday Dec. 5th - St. Sabas
Monday Dec. 7th - St. Ambrose
Then the 8th is the Immaculate Conception
Doesn't everyday have their own Saints and Martyrs? |
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Loaded questions, Donna. This is my favorite subject, so I hope I can explain in an understandable way.
There are different calendars, but the main "operating" calendar is called the General Roman Calendar. This includes all the feast days and seasons. The saints' days listed are "of greater importance" chosen out of a myriad list of centuries of holy men and women, canonized and honored by the Church as examples.
Then there are calendars that add some additional saints, such as the ones for our country, then our diocese, then your local parish or religious order have special days/patrons.
Some examples of the calendar
USCCB General Roman Calendar with American
Churchyear.net
What's implied in the calendar is the priority of feasts, as in what I linked above.
Solemnities and Sundays
Feasts
Memorials
Optional Memorials
It gets a little tricky when seasons and feast days and Sundays collide, so that's why it's helpful to look at an official calendar.
DonnaLynn wrote:
I have:
Thursday Dec. 3rd - St. Francis Xavier
Friday Dec. 4th - St. John Damascene
Saturday Dec. 5th - St. Sabas
Monday Dec. 7th - St. Ambrose
Then the 8th is the Immaculate Conception |
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Thursday, 3 - Francis Xavier (Memorial)
Friday, 4 - John of Damascus (Optional Memorial)
Saturday, 5 - No Saint, Advent Weekday
Sunday, 6 - Advent Week 2
Monday, 7 - Ambrose (Memorial)
Tuesday, 8 - Immaculate Conception (Solemnity)
Not every day in the main calendar has a saint. An optional memorial is just that -- optional. A priest can choose to celebrate or not. Now while St. Nicholas is dearly loved by children and families and many countries, his feast is only an optional memorial.
Saints could easily be bumped, particularly optional memorial days.
Donnalynn wrote:
| And then I found some calendars that call the Saturdays before a Sunday in Advent - Feria of Advent - or something like that. I am so confused now. |
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Feria is the Latin term that refers to days that have no feast/saint or vigil. Because the Saturday falls in Advent, it means the liturgy will be following the Advent season without any saint or feast.
Part of the confusion comes from the fact that there are many, many saints, and the calendar has been reformed many times. Now for every day of the year there are listings of many saints in the Roman Martyrology, and priests have the option to celebrate any of these saints on ferial or optional memorial days. (you can read a listing of it in translated form for each day at Ecatholichub.net.
I had just read from The Liturgical Year by Adolf Adam that would fit perfectly in this discussion (emphasis mine):
Quote:
In Article 51 the Council appeals to “the venerable faith of our ancestors” and “proposes again the decrees of the Second Council of Nicaea, of the Council of Florence, and of the Council of Trent.” At the same time, it urges “all concerned” to
Quote:
| remove of correct any abuses, excesses of defects which may have crept in here or there…Let us teach the faithful, therefore, that the authentic cult of the saints does not consist so much in a multiplicity of external acts, but rather in a more intense practice of our love, whereby, for our greater good and that of the Church, we seek from the saints “example in their way of life, fellowship in their communion, and the help of their intercession.” On the other hand, let the faithful be taught that our communion with these in heaven, provided that it is understood in the full light of faith, in no way diminishes the worship of adoration given to God the Father, through Christ, in the Spirit; on the contrary, it greatly enriches it (<i>Constitution on the Church</i>, no. 51; Flannery, pp. 412-13.) |
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This is an area I’ve been examining for myself. Are my celebrations just busyness and not for the purpose of uniting my domestic church with Mother Church? Are my feastday celebrations lacking the link with the Church’s liturgy? Is it bringing us closer in love with the Church and Her Liturgy? Are we having both interior and exterior elements so as to build the family’s spiritual life?
While learning and celebrating the saints is good, because they give us good example, that is not the main purpose of living the liturgical year. Saints were real people, and so they are a perfect addition to our studies, but, but, but… is the cult of saints going too far? The saints should never overshadow the Paschal Mystery which is unfolded in our Liturgical year. They are the backdrop, the support – they show how they did, living a spiritual life in the world and making it to heaven. They can intercede for us.
One further quote that I have been using to self-examine. I like this description of how saints in the Middle Ages was perceived. I think it’s a little anti-medieval, but there are some good points that I have seen, also (emphasis mine, again):
Quote:
The Middle Ages showed a passionate but theologically undernourished concentration on the saints. It had three characteristics:
Quote:
These are (a) specialization of the saints and the assignment of certain roles to them; (b) the parceling out and distribution of relics as pledges of help from many saints at once; (c) a belief in and obsession with miracles…The Church’s teaching was less and less frequently preached to the people in a way they could understand. In religious practice imitation of the saints became less important than invocation of them. In the popular mind the saints developed from intercessors to helpers. The danger of undisciplined religiosity was intensified by the fact that the increasingly passionate cult of the saints was concentrated in places of pilgrimage that possessed large collections of relics, while the practice of seeking indulgences, which was rampant at these shrines, gave still greater encouragement to a quantitative way of thinking. (Kottin, “Heiligenverehrung,” pp. 638-9)
In view of this widespread eclipse of the Church’s authentic veneration of the saints it is not surprising that the Reformers turned against all such veneration, sometimes in a violent manner. It is all the more gratifying, therefore, that in the modern Churches of the Reformation more and more individuals are concerned with developing an authentic veneration of the saints, including Mary. |
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I found it interesting that the Council of Trent started trying to streamline the number of saints’ days to make the Temporal calendar (Life of our Lord) take priority, but that more days kept creeping and the calendar would have to be reformed again.
Regarding your question on Sundays, I think we’ve had previous threads. We’re not in a mentality that we can’t do anything. Sundays were made for man, not man for the Sunday. It’s a family day, and Knights of Columbus thing sounds wonderful.
As far as Happy Birthday at mass, well, that’s a different subject. Birthday parties we usually move to Saturday, but family gatherings we often have on Sunday.
Dinner calls, so this is all I can address.
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anitamarie
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Another question, what would you do with kids who know what day the feast is always on, and know exactly when to put their shoes out, and would question why it was different, and wouldn't St. Nicholas be confused?
Anita
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JodieLyn
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Not to come in on either side  I do see both ways of looking at this..
But..
Anita - Simply tell the kids that St. Nicholas will be celebrating Sunday Mass as well and can't deliver the gifts on that day. And then explain that when this happens you know that he'll come either the day before or the day after instead (whichever you will want to do).
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ekbell
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I'm wondering about a vigil celebration, on Saturday evening for St. Lucy and St. Nicholas? I know both celebrations are traditionally morning celebrations. Do you think this would be an option?
My mom is from Holland so we always celebrated St. Nicks Eve. The cookies,the Dutch music, the special foods both made and bought from the local supplier of dutch treats, the cookies, the games and activities, the candy and small hard cookies thrown by Black Pete; all was on St. Nick's Eve.
The only thing on St. Nick's day proper was finding out what he had left us in our shoes -it wasn't something that really made up a big part of our day [generally candy, a trinket of some sort,dutch licorice and more cookies].
[The word cookie comes from the Dutch you know :-) ]
To tell the truth I hadn't even thought of moving or not having the St. Nick celebration. Of course Sunday Mass is the most important event of the week and everything else is planned around it but I must admit I've thought of the rules about Sunday bumping memorials and feastdays in terms of which readings should be said at mass and when praying the liturgy of the Hours rather then something that should influence domestic celebration. 
I did move my second dd's birthday celebration when it fell on Good Friday the year she turned eight  She understood waiting until after the Easter Triduum before celebrating her birthday. In fact I think she was just as happy to wait!
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MicheleQ
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Mackfam wrote:
I'm wondering about a vigil celebration, on Saturday evening for St. Lucy and St. Nicholas? I know both celebrations are traditionally morning celebrations. Do you think this would be an option?
St. Lucy - Vigil on December 12
** Candlelit dinner.
** Rosary by candlelight.
** Family *pretends* to sleep on the couch after family prayers (is this too hokey?) and youngest girl brings in coffee and cakes for dessert that evening which we eat by candlelight.
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I think we're going to move Lucy to the 11th so we can still do the morning. The 12th is Our lady of Guadalupe (which is a feast, higher than Lucy which is a memorial) and it's a special day here as it's my second dd's birthday. Also, I wouldn't do a celebration "vigil" on a Saturday because in actuality Sunday starts with the vigil and my kids know it.
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Mackfam
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MicheleQ wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
I'm wondering about a vigil celebration, on Saturday evening for St. Lucy and St. Nicholas? I know both celebrations are traditionally morning celebrations. Do you think this would be an option?
St. Lucy - Vigil on December 12
** Candlelit dinner.
** Rosary by candlelight.
** Family *pretends* to sleep on the couch after family prayers (is this too hokey?) and youngest girl brings in coffee and cakes for dessert that evening which we eat by candlelight.
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I think we're going to move Lucy to the 11th so we can still do the morning. The 12th is Our lady of Guadalupe (which is a feast, higher than Lucy which is a memorial) and it's a special day here as it's my second dd's birthday. Also, I wouldn't do a celebration "vigil" on a Saturday because in actuality Sunday starts with the vigil and my kids know it. |
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I don't know why I totally had a braindead moment - THE 12TH - OL OF GUADALUPE!!! OY! So...I wouldn't observe St. Lucy on her feast day anyway...scratch that idea. But, I think I will follow the European traditions for St. Nicholas day.
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mimip
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I have been following this with great interest. And I have a question....
What about All Saint's Day??? It falls on a Sunday this year. Do you celebrate All Saints Day or the Sunday????
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MicheleQ
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All Saint's is a solemnity so it will be celebrated even though it falls on a Sunday. The mass readings will be for All Saint's.
A solemnity can fall on a Sunday and WILL be celebrated except for the Sundays of the seasons of Advent, Lent, and Easter, because those Sundays take precedence over all solemnities and feasts of the Lord.
"By its nature, Sunday excludes any other celebration's being permanently assigned to that day, with these exceptions:
- Sunday within the octave of Christmas is the feast of the Holy Family;
- Sunday following 6 January is the feast of the Baptism of the Lord;
- Sunday after Pentecost is the solemnity of the Holy Trinity;
- the last Sunday in Ordinary Time is the solemnity of Christ the King."
General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar
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stellamaris
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There is also a hierarchy of celebrations within each type of feast (solemnity, feast, memorial). For solemnities, here's the ranking, taken from the Table of Liturgical Days in The Liturgy of the Hours:
1. Easter triduum
2. Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, Pentecost, Sundays of Advent, Lent, and the season of Easter (my note: that is, the Easter Sundays), Ash Wednesday, weekdays of Holy Week,days within the Octave of Easter
3. Solemnities of our Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and saints listed in the general calendar, All Souls' Day
4. Proper solemnities, namely: solemnity of principal patron of place, city, or state; solemnity of a dedication and anniversary of a dedication of a particular church; solemnity of titular saint of a particular church, solemnity of titualr saint, founder, or principal patron of an order or congregation
5. Feasts of the Lord in the general calendar
6. Sundays of the Christmas season and Sundays in ordinary time.
And it goes on...
As you can see, the All Saints' Day (in #3, above, as a "solemnity of saints listed in the general calendar") supersedes a Sunday of Ordinary Time.
Also, the table makes clear that Sundays of Advent enjoy a privileged position in the calendar (#2), making them very liturgically important. And, when you think about it, what is more important than preparing our hearts to receive our Lord? I would think you could discuss St. Nicholas and St. Lucy on the Sundays that impede their feasts from this perspective: what did they do to prepare themselves and others to receive Christ? How did they witness to the reality of the Incarnation in their lives? In what way were they, too, waiting for Christ, although in one sense they already knew Him? How can we prepare our hearts to receive Him?
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Thank you so much Ladies!!!
It is so wonderful to have such a font of knowledge at your fingertips!!!!!!
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JennGM
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anitamarie wrote:
Another question, what would you do with kids who know what day the feast is always on, and know exactly when to put their shoes out, and would question why it was different, and wouldn't St. Nicholas be confused?
Anita |
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I've been thinking about your question, Anita. I guess I'm thinking this would be a teachable moment for the bigger picture, understanding time and calendar, and then the Church's calendar.
For the very little, of course, we just say we are celebrating St. Nicholas today. They aren't aware of the date.
For a little older, I don't think there will be much problem accepting an earlier St. Nick's celebration, since it's eagerly anticipated. And we do move some birthday or anniversary celebrations when it's convenient for more family to share, or to move because of sickness or travel. It's not odd in our house.
But, I was thinking how in the bigger picture, this is a lesson about time, including the uniqueness of the Liturgical calendar.
* We learn how fixed dates fall on different days of the week every year.
* Easter and Ash Wednesday and Ascension and Pentecost all fall on different dates every year.
* Advent starts at a different date each year, and the number of days in Advent varies.
* Feasts like Holy Family, Christ the King, Sacred Heart, Immaculate Heart aren't on fixed dates, and change every year.
* Some saints' days aren't celebrated some years on the calendar, bumped by Sundays.
* Some solemnities that fall on Sundays are celebrated.
* Some solemnities that fall during Holy Week or Easter Week are moved either before or after these dates.
* And then there is highs and lows of the year -- the seasons, the solemnities, the feasts, the memorials, the optional memorials, the ferial days -- all create a pattern that should be bringing us closer to understanding the Paschal Mystery.
And besides all the calendar ideas, I also think this is perfect opening to dwell on the fact that St. Nicholas was a bishop and a saint, and not just a secularized gift-giver. What is a saint? St. Nicholas followed and lived the liturgy. He lived the liturgical year. He loved Christ above all things and loved Holy Mother church. He would want Sundays to bump his feast, because to God all the glory. "He must increase I must decrease".
That's just my two cents.
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SusanJ
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This is a good thread. In our family we really try not to do things we consider celebratory without good cause. In our case that would be things like having dessert or wine with dinner. At one end of the spectrum it is clear to us that Solemnities like Christmas and Easter are times to celebrate. At the other end we wouldn't ever celebrate something on a Friday in Lent.
In between we have a harder time making the call. Do any of you have prescribed things you do to distinguish different days within a season. For example, when we were doing regular tea time every day we normally had toast with jam. During Lent or Advent we would have toast without jam. On a feast day we'd have something different but only moderately sweet like scones. On solemnities we'd have cookies or cake. Memorials (both kinds) were treated like normal days, birthdays were treated like Solemnities, baptisms and name days were treated like feasts.
We don't do daily tea time right now for a variety of reasons but it would still be nice to have a sense of when the Church calls us to celebrate. We do read stories of the saints and use some of the Catholic mosaic books but these are part of a commemoration rather than a celebration.
I appreciate Jenn's thoughts on paring back to the essentials of the liturgical year. Looking ahead to a bigger family (I hope!) I can just imagine what our weeks will look like once there are liturgical seasons, solemnities, feast days, birthdays, baptism days, name days, etc.
What do you all do to mark the different levels of days? Do any of you elevate certain memorials when you have a particular devotion to a saint (I believe religious communities do this?)? Do any of you feast when the church says its a feast day regardless of whether you feel any particular connection to a saint?
Susan
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donnalynn
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Jenn - thank you for your very complete response - Michele's planner also has a very good explanation of the calendar.
My more direct questions that came to mind...
Do the norms of the general calendar have the same emphasis in the home as in the public liturgical worship setting? Are the laity bound by norms in the same way as say the parish priest?
My understanding of "optional" is that the priest has some discretion as to whether the Mass is said with a particular memorial for that day. Does this mean a priest could celebrate a memorial for St. Nicholas on a day that has a different optional memorial?
I guess I see a difference between the general church calendar and our own smaller "domestic church calendar" - which has days that, of course, parallel the larger liturgical year but have special significance to our family.
I really don't see how a private St. Nicholas celebration in our home would detract from the celebration of the liturgy but a parish talent show would not. (Just to sight an example of my own confusion about what is ok on a Sunday).
BUT....I can see how someone else might see it that way. Basically I have to remind myself that through the sacramental graces of my marriage I am equipped to make these kinds of decisions about our own home celebrations and how we keep Sunday's holy.
I just couldn't help but think last night what a blessing it is to even have this as a possible concern. So many families seem to think that Mass is optional on any given Sunday. My dd has *never* seen many of the teens in her confirmation class even though we frequent all the Masses between two parishes. But then I reminded myself that every Sunday at Mass the priest asks that we be protected from "needless worry" -I think my fretting over soemthing like this at this time in my life is indeed needless. But I can appreciate having something to work towards in the future (like when they are old enough to know that St. Nicholas has human helpers to fill daddy's shoes).
Intersting thread.
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donnalynn
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Keeping Sundays a Priority
