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mathmama
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My dd is almost 5. She is very bright and has an incredible memory. Just to give you an idea, we follow the MODG K curriculum (although I don't use all their books, I substitute in some subjects) and I follow the poetry program to the "T". I have their poetry book and when we do a poem I follow exactly what they say to do. I spend just a few minutes on poetry, yet she always memorizes the poems weeks ahead of the curriculum. She has always had an incredible memory (doing things like memorizing Amelia Bedelia books at the age of not even 3). But, she just can't make any progress in phonics. We have been on the pre-reading blends for what seems like forever. Everyday is the same thing, she just doesn't seem to make progress. This summer dh started in the evenings while I was making dinner "teaching" her to read using a Dick and Jane book we have. She very quickly picked up a bunch of words and she wasn't memorizing the stories, just the words (she would recognize the words in different stories).
Anyway, I am wondering if there is program out there that is better for her. Right now we are using CHC's phonics program. I don't remember learning to read, so I really feel like I need a program to follow. Interestingly, DH told me tonight that he couldn't do phonics either. He has a really hard time hearing different sounds and I think that DD has that issue to a lesser extent as well, and I think this is something that makes phonics more difficult for her.
Any suggestions? And again, I would really feel more comfortable following a program...I am a math person not a language person 
Thanks,
Beth
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JodieLyn
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There's a certain percentage.. I believe about 10% of the population that can't learn to read with phonics.. I think I have a post around here on that. My oldest learned to read with flash cards with the dolch sight words.. once she had enough of those under her belt I just got out of her way  she's a voracious reader.
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JodieLyn
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ah here's one of the topics
scroll down to my post on learning to sight read
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Willa
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My six year old learned to read by the sight method. He is very visually sharp and learned all the most common words just by tracking my finger on the page. But he knows almost nothing about phonics.
I am going through a phonics course with him now. I thought we could teach spelling and writing through phonics. If the child learns to read by sight it doesn't mean that he or she will never learn phonics. Many programs recommend teaching a lot of sight words along with systematic phonics and this is not a recent thing -- most of the 19th century readers used the approach of teaching sight words in primers and teaching phonetic rules later on.
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ekbell
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I was one of those people who couldn't read using phonics.
It actually wasn't a big deal when learning to read because I was the only grade one student in a two room rural school (which closed the next year) and my teacher just used what worked with me (I had a basal reader).
It became a large problem with my spelling. I had trouble spelling so they moved me to a special phonic based program which worked so poorly for me that I wasn't able to spell three letter words in grade three. It wasn't until my mom insisted that I be moved to a different program that I started making progress
What happened was that I realized that I didn't actually need to correctly interpret the sound of the letters and write them down, it was really ok to remember the spelling using any method I could.
If you want a program with everything spelled out but isn't as heavy on phonics then I suggestPathway Readers.
This program has separated the phonics from sight reading which means that you could progress through the Before We Read/First Steps books at your daughter's pace even if she is slower with the Learning Through Sounds.
The Beginning to Read section is very good for children who need to practice noticing small details (such as the difference between b and d) 
I must admit that my oldest wasn't thrilled with the readers (I liked the gentle pace of the stories myself) so we used something else after the First Steps reader but it did wonders for my confidence. After going through the Before We Read/First Steps teacher's manual I was able to use some other readers we had to teach my oldest.
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MichelleW
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I really believe that phonics set my oldest son back. We finally had success when we switched to the old readers. I picked up a box full of Jerry and Alice readers at an estate sale, and those worked great for us.
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JodieLyn
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oh and it's typical for those who learn by sight reading to be a bit later reader.. it takes time to build the vocabulary to begin reading.. whereas phonics they can read sounding out the words as they go. But the point is that they both end up reading.. and nothing is worse than having a child totally in the wrong method.. because it's so frustrating and difficult and does ugly things like convincing them they must be stupid or learning to hate reading.
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Stephanie_Q
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So, how do you tell?
My dd7s reading progress is SO slow. She had a list of sight words in school last year and when we read books I'd pause and she'd read those words (the, a, an, said, etc.) but if I paused at words she could sound out - like mat she'd get flustered and every time she saw it she'd have to sound it out again as if she'd never seen it before. She is already very discouraged. The other day she wrote: "I dot no haw tw reb."
When my 6 yo was learning to read last year, she'd sound it out once and then see it and just read it every time after that. She's a pretty advanced reader and spells very well...(we used Starfall and CHC)...so the contrast is striking to me.
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Cay Gibson
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I learned by sight. Phonics wasn't taught in schools when I was in first grade. I didn't learn them until I was teaching my oldest son.
My middle daughter started reading fluently at age 4. We had not worked all the way through her phonics when she took off reading on her own. I asked a reading teacher if I should continue teaching the phonics to her and she replied, "Why? Evidently she has figured it out on her own."
Sure enough, she'll be 12 next month, and often corrects others pronunciation.  She figured it out on her own and I didn't do much.
Now I have a 7 yr old who is reading well enough to do her own school work (for the most part) but we're still working through phonics.
I will say that Explode the Code is worth its salt whether the child is a sight reader or phonics reader.
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ekbell
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So, how do you tell?
My mom's advice with a struggling reader would be to
-focus on learning only a few words at a time, better for her to focus on only one or two words at a time but know them completely then for her to half-know fifty words
[she would also recommend starting with words that are very different from each other in shape, length and sound and moving to more similar words, making sure to quickly have enough words for sentences]
-go over every word attack skill you can think of while learning the words (looking at the shape and length of the word, sounding the word out, pointing out the differences and similarities to words already learned, writing it out, having the words written out on cards...paying attention to what works for the child)
[this will hopefully avoid the idea that certain words *must* be read using certain particular methods - I can remember feeling as if it was cheating to remember the spelling of a word rather then working it out using phonics]
-highlight the words she knows in her books so that she can easily see them
[adapting the words learned to the sequence in a basal reader series can be very encouraging]
-use the word cards for games, sentence reading and sentence creating
-and spend as much time as she needs with materials set up to give her confidence (having several sets of very early readers can help with this)
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Bethany
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Stephanie and Beth
My daughter is very similar. She has an incredidble memory for things she hears. We are also using MODG and she memorized the first two poems after hearing them probably 2X (The Owl & The Pussycat and Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening). But we've been working on reading for years  . She turned 7 in June and were only on Level 2 Book 5 of LSLF. With her it's almost as if reading and phonics are totally unrelated. We're also using Sound Beginnings, which she is doing very well with, and the red MCP Phonics workbook, which she also does very well with and is almost through. However, when we sit down to read it is completely foreign. B and d are always transposed and she has a hard time recognizing word families. I'm very frustrated and worried because I have another one who is strating this process and I hope it isn't something I'm doing that is causing the problems.
I know many people rave about 100 EZ lessons, but I started that with my oldest a long time ago and she hated it very quickly. Also, tried with my 2nd and at about lesson 5, she hated it too! So I think I've officially given up on that book . I've requested Phonics Pathways from the library and maybe that will give me some new ideas. I really feel like I need to just keep plugging away and one day it will click. At least that's what I pray!
For those of you who didn't learn with phonics, were you able to recognize that "and" would rhyme with "stand". Did you make those connections or did it have to be pointed out to you. When we come to a word like "stand" and she's having problems, I can ask "OK what does a n d say/" and then she'll get it. Did really concentrating on word families help?
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ekbell
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Your daughter may have dyslexia, some of your description sounds familiar. It may be worth having her assessed and doing some checking for reading programs that work well with dyslexia.
Reassuring notes: I remember scanning through a book about the books which influenced various authors, one author talked about books which had been read to him as he was *ten* before being able to read by himself- obviously it hadn't done serious harm to his writing ability.
A nephew of mine was assessed as having a 'non-specific learning disability' [IE he had more then ordinary problems with learning to read but they weren't sure exactly what was the problem] but while it took him much longer to read independently he both finally managed to learn to read for enjoyment and was able to stay on grade level for his other subjects through my sister reading aloud to him [the advantage of homeschooling].
On my particular difficulties with phonics
Your daughter doesn't sound like she has quite the same problems as I do. My problems appear to be primarily auditory. I have had little problem distinguishing one letter or word from another so the old-fashioned sight method worked very well.
So I noticed word families (defined as noticing that those words had the same endings) and could distinguish rhyming from non-rhyming words. However, noticing that the word ended with a+n+d only helped if I happened to remember that it was the *word* 'and' and how 'and' was pronounced. Otherwise it was just frustrating.
What I couldn't (and still can't) do is reliably remember what certain sounds (in particular a number of vowel sounds) are *without* reference to a word that I *know* contains the sound. When helping my children I can 'sound out' the words only because I already know what those words are and how to say those words
I am still very bad at sounding out words which I don't already know how to say, there are quite a few words which I know the meaning of but not how they sound (to me reading silently and reading aloud are not quite the same skill).
My ability to remember how to pronounce new words is very limited [endless practice with someone who can correct me immediately is needed], my ability to get number or letter combinations confused is endless and I am the very last person you want giving or receiving verbal directions.
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Keepmehome
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I have a 6th grader who has really struggled to learn how to read. He whizzed through the MCP phonics, but fought me everytime he had to read the sentences or stories. He knew how to complete the worksheets, but he couldn't read. It wasn't until 3rd grade that I figured out that he is dyslexic. I started the Barton Reading and Spelling System with him in January of his 4th grade year. He learned more in 1 year then in all the previous years together. It is not easy for him to learn or for me to teach, but it is working. He is on level 5 and is still a little choppy, but he can read. He told me after two or three levels "I thought I just had to remember all these words." It was really nice to see the light go on.
My daughter is 7, almost 8, and is still working on LSLf, Level 2 Book 3. What Bethany said about her daughter is exactly like mine. She also could not pick out the individual sounds. I bought "Earobics" It is a computer program that teaches the child auditory discrimination. It has helped her tremondously. She is progressing slowly with actually reading. It is overwhelming for her to see a whole page filled with words. "I have to read all of that!" I decided that instead of pushing her to "get it" faster, I am just going to slow down and work at her pace. I found that at this level there are some really good Dr. Seus's books that help her build confidence. I highly recommend "Earobics" and "Barton Reading and Spelling System"
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Bethany
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Do you work with the Barton program everyday? How much was the Earobics? I didn't see a price on the website. How fast did you move throught the first 2 levels of Barton?
Thanks so much!
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Bethany
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Keepmehome
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I do work with the Barton program everyday, but not for an hour. The directions are to work for one hour, at least, twice a week. We work for about 20 minutes every day. This includes, phonics, spelling, grammer, and reading. My son is just not able to concentrate for that length of time. It takes us about three days to complete one lesson. Sometimes it takes two days if I make him read the two stories to his father. The first level is simply learning to put sounds together and identify the number of sounds in each word, and whether they are the same or different sound. It took us three to four weeks to finish, maybe less. It wasn't very difficut for him. Level 2 took four to five weeks. It is an introduction to all the letters, short vowel sounds, and most common digraphs. I have used this with four children, the younger they are, they longer it takes. My son could have done it a little more quickly, but he does not cooperate very well. My 7 year old did level 1 & 2 last year. She worked completely through level 2, but still was not able to read with any kind of fluency. It was overwhelming for her. The first two levels cost $250 each. Each of the other lessons is $300. It is very expensive, but you can find the first three levels pretty easily used and at discounted prices.
The Earobics cd, I bought on ebay. It was between $30 to $40, but I paid $79, I think, but I bought Level 1 and Level 2. You do not need both, level 1 uses smaller more familiar words for younger students, and level 2 uses longer words for an older student for remediation. Earobics 1 went over much better with my children than the second one. The Earobics cd is for only 2 students and a guest. I mistakenly used it on a different computer than we normally use, and was able to start over with a different student. My daughter was not very happy with it going back to the beginning. My 9 year old couldn't stand the Barton program because it is too slow for her. I teach her the spelling rules from the program, but she started reading fluently with 100EZ lessons.
Although, the Barton system is expensive, I tutor other students in the community who are having trouble reading, which helps to defray the cost.
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mathmama
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Thanks for the information. I definitely do not think that this is an issue of dyslexia, although thank you for the concern. I looked at pre school/kindergarten warning signs for it and she does not fit them.
I have been reminded by friends the past couple of days that she is only 4 (will be 5 soon) and that maybe I need to step back. I am not concerned about her reading soon, I just *really* feel like phonics is not a fit for her, like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I don't expect a switch in program to bring on her reading any sooner, but just bring it on more gently and naturally for her.
Perhaps for now I can get started without investing in a program. I have the pre primer and primer dolch flash cards now and we have a large Dick and Jane book plus a bunch of Dr Seuss books. I have to admit that although we read every night I have been a little lax about reading to her on a regular basis. Now I will be sure to point out the words as I read them as I guess that will help her as well. I definitely think that she will benefit from a break from phonics....it is just too frustrating for the both of us.
Thanks again and if anyone else has suggestions on good books or book series to start with I would love to hear about them :)
Beth
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Stephanie_Q
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Thanks for starting this topic, Beth. I gave my 7yo a "Dick and Jane" book and she hasn't put it down. She is so proud that she can read! I'll give her the Seton pre-primer next.
Of course we're not giving up on phonics and teaching word families and other decoding skills, but I think this is giving her the confidence she needs.
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mathmama
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Np, Stephanie :) Last Friday I took out the Dick and Jane book and had DD read a good 30+ pages of it. I was amazed at how many words she knows! (this is thanks to the work that DH did with her this summer, the work that I poo pooed as being something that would set her back ) Then we read a Dr Seuss book together. When we turned to a new page I had her scan the words and read the ones she knows....I was amazed yet again. She really does know a lot of words! She also learned about 5 new ones. And the best part is that we both enjoyed it! I had DH print off the pre primer and primer Dolch flashcards and we are going to use them today. So, I see that right now I don't need a program. We just need to read together as I point out the words. I have no plan of abandoning phonics altogether as I see them as valuable but we will definitely be taking a somewhat extended break from them. Thanks for sharing your experiences and for the information!
Beth
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rose gardens
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mathmama wrote:
My dd is almost 5. She is very bright and has an incredible memory. ... But, she just can't make any progress in phonics. ... Interestingly, DH told me tonight that he couldn't do phonics either. He has a really hard time hearing different sounds and I think that DD has that issue to a lesser extent as well, and I think this is something that makes phonics more difficult for her.
Any suggestions? And again, I would really feel more comfortable following a program...I am a math person not a language person |
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Since you're a math person, you might like a program that's well documented with statistics from years of research on reading. 
Phonics does not work for everyone. It may not work well if there are uncorrected underlying auditory processing issues. Also, many teachers who claim to use phonics don't pronounce the letter sounds correctly. (The /b/ sound is not pronounced "buh"--eliminate all vowel sounds when pronouncing consonant sounds. Vowels in letter sounds can confuse children when they read; the word "bat" is not pronounced "buh-a-tuh".) However, phonics--even if not taught completely correctly--usually works better than trying to memorize by sight every word in the English language or some variation of that reading method. People who have good memories may be able to memorize different approaches to reading, but ultimately our writing is based on the sounds found within words. Reading problems often don't show up until third grade for word-memorizers, when the vocubulary increases and picture cues decrease. If your daughter can't hear all the sounds within words, she is at a disadvantage in reading.
Auditory processing abilities may be hereditary. Since you mention your husband can't identify all the letter sounds and suspect the same to a lesser extent with your daughter, I suggest you check out the LiPS program by Lindamood.
I recently ordered LiPS to work with my 8 yo son. He reads small words phonetically correct but reading progress has been very slow and he's below grade level. I suspected he is prone dyslexia for some time and I have not pushed reading too much because I was concerned that he may develop full blown dyslexia rather than simply the tendancy towards it. This fall I ordered the Barton program, (for dyslexia and it also corrects some auditory processing problems in the first level) but he could not pass the "pre-screening"--meaning his auditory processing problems were too severe to start the Barton program.
The LiPS program is sold through Gander Publishing. (ganderpublishing.com) It is well documented with years of research of proven effectiveness. The program can be administered by some trained speech therapist or at Lindamood-Bell learing centers, but I found that route very costly and providers not very close. We're trying it at home.
I bought the LiPs manual and have studied it while I await some other supplies before I begin the program with my son. (If you don't know the correct sounds of letters, look into some of the training material or workshops.) The program helps correct auditory processing by helping children learn other multi-sensory cues for sounds beyond hearing, such as the shape of the lips, position of tongue, etc. I plan to use the LiPS program about halfway through until my son's auditory ability gets to the point where we can begin the Barton reading system, but the LiPS can continue as an entire reading program.
Rather than either phonics or whole language, one book described the Lindamood LiPS program as a "linguistic approach to reading." I have read so much about reading that's it's almost ridiculous.
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Becky Parker
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I'm bringing this back up because I wanted to relate a recent experience. I have always been a "phonics first" person. I've been working to teach my ds to read and it has been a laborious process. He is now in 3rd grade and is still struggling. The other day I printed off some sight words and told him we were going to start learning them, a few at a time. I explained that many of them were hard to sound out, but they are words he will read a lot as he reads more books. I thought we would start slowly... I handed him the list and he rattled off 20 of the words without even thinking about it. I was amazed! Further investigation helped me to see that he has many words memorized and can just read them, but the ones that have to be sounded out are the ones that slow him down terribly. Now I'm thinking that maybe I've been trying to fit my square peg son into a round hole!
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: does phonics work for everyone?--Update
