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Elizabeth
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Matilda wrote:
I don't have to imagine the horror with which my future in-laws met the prospect of their son marrying me because they made it very plain and were incredibly vocal in expressing their displeasure. They wrongfully assumed that I was going to keep living the life my parents had saddled me with. They weren't even open to the possibility that what attracted me to their son was the values and faith they had helped instill in him. They didn't even consider for a moment that I wanted something better than what my parent's experienced.
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I could have written this very same thing. And as my children go out into the world and meet people and fall in love, I am sharing my own experiences with them, offering my guidance in how to choose a spouse and praying every day that I remain open to what *God's* plan is for them. If there is one thing I've learned it's that even a devoted mother might not know what is good for her son in this regard. My own marriage proves that.
Charlotte, don't take any of this personally. I'm sure none of it was intended that way. Pretty much everyone here would be thrilled if her son found a wife like you 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Bookswithtea
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Actually, I was also that 1/2 of a couple that the Christian parents were less than thrilled with. And I didn't come to Christian belief until 2 yrs into that relationship so I'm sure my working-mom/pro choice ideas were probably terrifying to my in laws. I didn't mean to suggest that God cannot work through relationships to bring someone to faith at all. I am one of those people.
I think what I find so disturbing in the scenarios I am hearing about is that the child was perfectly content with his/her family's ways of doing things until they began a relationship. After that, discontent and resentment struck hard, leaving the family split in many ways because most young adults will choose their love interest over their family.
I suppose its possible to assume that the families were awful to the significant other and that they "asked for it". But its equally possible that these people lovingly welcomed into their home and hearts these young adults, who did nothing but snub and laugh at them, making fun of the family's choice to homeschool younger siblings, or complaining incessantly and disrespectfully about the family's desire to make sure that time spent together was well chaperoned (examples here are not made up  ).
No offense was meant, Charlotte. I'm sorry if it sounded that way.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Matilda
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No apology necessary, Books! I was not taking any of your comments personally, more the attitudes of the parents you were describing. I was putting myself in the place of those unwanted future in-laws and I should know better than to do that! 
The only thing I can offer regarding your question about the resentment is that the only cases I have been witness to are ones where the child really didn't have a good understanding about why the parents had made the choices they did and because of that, they were really just quietly conforming to the rules and biding their time until they were able to escape. I'm not saying that is the situation in the families that you know, just my own experiences. If a child isn't allowed to have any sense of his own identity or individuality in the family, it can result in this resentment that you have described.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
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Barbara C.
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I think that Charlotte is really touching on something important. If the child/teen just sees the family rules as just arbitrary and they haven't really accepted the values behind them as their own they they will more likely run into problems like this.
I was just talking to my six-year-old (going on sixteen in her mind) the other day about a show she had watched and how it had sent the subtle message that teens have the right to date whoever they want no matter what their parents say. When I told her that wasn't correct, she replied, "But you can't tell me who to love!!" I said, "That's true. I can't control your feelings, but being in a relationship is about much more than feelings. And you can love someone who may not be the best person for you to be with. And while it is important that we be fair and get to know someone you are interested in, you also have to know that Mommy and Daddy are always looking out for your best interest."
I can't completely blame the message all on the evils of television (although it has made me a bit more circumspect), because this idea is as old as "Romeo & Juliet". And while she assured me that she has no interest in dating, "I'm only six (insert eye roll), I don't know why you're telling me this stuff now." But I wanted to lay the groundwork now, so she doesn't think certain rules are arbitrary later.
We'll see if she has absorbed it by the time she is allowed to date....when she's 106!
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Barbara
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Matilda
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| But its equally possible that these people lovingly welcomed into their home and hearts these young adults, who did nothing but snub and laugh at them, making fun of the family's choice to homeschool younger siblings, or complaining incessantly and disrespectfully about the family's desire to make sure that time spent together was well chaperoned (examples here are not made up ). |
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If the children of the families you know didn't stand up for their family's values and thought it was appropriate for someone to come in and act with such complete disrespect towards his/her parents and younger siblings it's a pretty good indication that those children didn't internalize the family values or even understand the simple courtesy and respect that is owed to his/her parents & family. I find it hard to believe that a child could go from loving their family one day to allowing it to be abused the next. I think it speaks to unresolved issues deep down below the surface that maybe you can't see.
And remember too, you are only getting one side of the story. I know exactly what my in-law's friends thought of me based on what they heard from them when I was dating and engaged to my husband.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
Mom to four (11, 10, 9 & 5) an even split for now
with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
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Bookswithtea
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Matilda wrote:
If the children of the families you know didn't stand up for their family's values and thought it was appropriate for someone to come in and act with such complete disrespect towards his/her parents and younger siblings it's a pretty good indication that those children didn't internalize the family values or even understand the simple courtesy and respect that is owed to his/her parents & family. I find it hard to believe that a child could go from loving their family one day to allowing it to be abused the next. I think it speaks to unresolved issues deep down below the surface that maybe you can't see.
And remember too, you are only getting one side of the story. I know exactly what my in-law's friends thought of me based on what they heard from them when I was dating and engaged to my husband. |
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I think this assumes a lot. It assumes that young adults cannot be young and prone to influence, and it assumes that the homeschool families are inherently dysfunctional. It also assumes that the young adult is somehow wise enough to navigate well the rough and tumble emotions of being caught between their family and their love interest. I empathize...deeply and personally... how difficult it is to be the dil that the parents are disappointed with. It is definitely an aspect of the bigger picture that needs to be considered.
Thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and heart with me on this matter. I'm very grateful. Yesterday afternoon, I had a phone conversation with a wise friend from the board that has given me much to muse on, and also one from a non board member who shared her own experiences with me and the conclusions she has come to. I'm stepping out now to pray on the many things you (and they) have all shared. I pray that when it is my time to deal with these things, God will give me the grace to do it charitably and wisely. No matter what the situations are, raising teens into young adults is definitely an adventure.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Elizabeth
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Matilda wrote:
| I find it hard to believe that a child could go from loving their family one day to allowing it to be abused the next. |
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I don't. We're talking about teenagers who are just figuring this all out. And when we're talking about homeschooled teenagers, this very well may be their first foray out into the "world." They can easily meet people within carefully controlled circles that will challenge what they've grown up knowing all along. The thing is, if they've known it all along (like in the case of homeschooling), they've never had an occasion to question it for themselves. So, there he is, really liking this girl who is so different and appealing. And she's telling him that his family is weird. And he never really considered that could be the case before. he's smitten with her and it takes a while to sort things out.
In the meantime, his parents are trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, knowing that they have an opportunity to witness and that they need to take their time and not judge the girl too harshly, lest they push their son away altogether.It takes some time for them all to figure out which end is up, especially if this is the first time anyone has dated. There's going to be some conflict and it might seem like the child loves his family one day and then tolerates his girlfriend abusing it the next. His loyalties are torn. Chances are good though, that he will come around and then see that she was wrong and home is where truth is. The trick, I think is for the parents to limit the amount of permanent damage he can do while he figures it all out. And the other trick is to make sure they do that in a way that leaves the door open for their son to come back into the family fold without feeling utterly embarrassed when he does figure it all out.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Nedra in So. CA
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Matilda
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I think this assumes a lot. It assumes that young adults cannot be young and prone to influence, and it assumes that the homeschool families are inherently dysfunctional. |
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"Inherently dysfunctional"? Not at all. I reserve that term specifically for the kind of ugliness I see in the world and have great empathy for those children growing up in truly dysfunctional situations who are looked down upon for the choices their parents made. I am simply speaking from a different perspective, one that I thought might add to this discussion but I see it has only caused hurt. This was not my intention and I am sorry if I my poor words caused pain to anyone or led them to imply more than I actually said. You can tell, obviously, from the ages of my children that we are nowhere near this stage in life with our own family, but I have had close experience with families who are. I thought I could offer something.
There are so many benefits to homeschooling but that doesn't mean that it is a perfect system. And wonderfully loving homeschooling parents are also only human and can miss those clues that might indicate a child is not really internalizing the reasons for the choices that the family has made especially if that child tends to keep things to himself and hesitates to open up his heart and lay bare those inner dialogues.
One of the things I love about his board is how other people's perspective has opened my eyes to possibilities that I had not considered. I would hate to think that my experiences were not given consideration simply because I have not yet experienced it with my own children.
Elizabeth wrote:
| The thing is, if they've known it all along (like in the case of homeschooling), they've never had an occasion to question it for themselves. |
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I think maybe I had assumed that parents would have already encouraged that kind of questioning within the context of the family environment so that they could help guide and form their child's reasoning as they worked these thoughts out for themselves.
There is good food for thought here, but I think it is time for me to say "I'm full".
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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stefoodie
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Stef, do the filipinos have a tradition of happier marriages because of this practice (which looks quite wonderful to me!)? |
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From what I've seen of the families that I personally know, I'm tempted to say yes. However, I'd hate to generalize since that's a very small segment of the population. What I *have* seen is that because even to this date, divorce is not legal in the Philippines, there is more of a tendency (even in Filipinos who have migrated here a long time ago, and who have passed this kind of mentality on to their kids) to think of marriage as a lifetime commitment as opposed to "until I get tired of you". I've seen many Filipino marriages both here in the US and outside of it where there's a stick-to-it determination. I've seen marriages survive infidelity, problems with in-laws, the death of a child, etc. Most Filipinos I know still say, "Divorce is not a word in our vocabulary." I think when you go into marriage with this in mind, it's so different than when you go into it thinking you have a way out if things get tough.
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| Most of them have the boys from the more countercultural families. I think boys at this age think they are invincible (and probably rightly) are more focused on cutting those apron strings than girls are. |
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I think it's also the parents. There is also the old-fashioned mentality (not necessarily a good one) that we can be more permissive of the boys "because they're boys" -- certainly in our family I've seen that too. Chastity is often seen as a girl's concern and families take great pains to teach daughters the value of it, but I don't see the same concern when it comes to boys, which is sad.
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stefoodie
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Matilda wrote:
| I am trying very hard not to take any part of this discussion personally and I think Jennifer's call to charitably express our opinions is a good reminder for everyone. |
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Charlotte, I just wanted to apologize in case I said something above that was uncharitable. I actually have the same experience as some of you moms here -- some members of dh's family don't like me at all (major understatement), so I know how that is.
I want to clarify that even though our kids know what our expectations are, our kids also know that we would welcome with open arms whoever it is they choose to love and marry. I call them "expectations" but perhaps a more accurate term would be guidelines for discernment.
For instance, if a potential suitor is an only child, what does that mean for your relationship with him? How will that affect your marriage, the way you parent your kids, etc.? We think it's prudent to raise questions like this, not to limit their choices, i.e., "you cannot marry an only child", or "you can't marry a non-Catholic", but just so they are able to think of things that they might not consider themselves.
At our pre-Cana, one of the things that Father commended us for was how compatible we were in the way we thought -- in two years of dating, we had pretty much covered everything: was I to continue working after children, who would handle finances, were we going to have separate accounts, what if someone were unfaithful, etc., that when we came to pre-Cana we were on a level of intimacy that really made our first years as newlyweds smooth and virtually surprise-free. I was 19 when I met dh and he was 25. But prior to getting married we had already asked each other all the major questions, we didn't really have to go through an adjustment period as newlyweds. I'm not saying that's how every marriage should be, but by thinking upon these things carefully we hope we're teaching our child how to properly discern her choice in a spouse, and what she can/can't live with.
While they're unattached, we feel it's our job to continue guiding them, but once they're ready to make decisions for themselves, we're really just here to support and pray for them.
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stef
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stefoodie
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Barbara C. wrote:
| I can't control your feelings, but being in a relationship is about much more than feelings. And you can love someone who may not be the best person for you to be with. And while it is important that we be fair and get to know someone you are interested in, you also have to know that Mommy and Daddy are always looking out for your best interest. |
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 Exactly. And sometimes when they're in that getting to know and falling in love stage (and don't we know this because we've been there ourselves?), it's often difficult to be objective and pull back a bit to try and see the big picture, so it's still our job to kind of show them what we see through OUR lens. If after that they still choose a person we see as unsuitable then surely God has a reason for allowing that to happen.
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stef
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stefoodie
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Elizabeth wrote:
| The trick, I think is for the parents to limit the amount of permanent damage he can do while he figures it all out. |
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ITA. And also keep in mind that even "permanent damage" in our eyes can look like a blessing years from now. We just never know. I've seen marriages that looked like it was all wrong in the beginning and years later both spouses have blossomed, their children are thriving and the wounds have healed. Again, God's grace.
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stef
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Servant2theKing
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I feel moved to respond to the subject of marrying to avoid sexual sin. While it is truly a valid concern to avoid temptations of this nature while courting, it seems imprudent for a couple to marry on that basis, especially through an unsacramental marriage outside the Church. The sexual tension a young couple undergoes during courtship, while keeping themselves chaste, can serve to strengthen their souls for the longterm challenges of remaining faithful to their vows in marriage. Marrying too soon, simply to avoid temptation, merely throws a couple into the more difficult arena of married life without having tested and trained their souls by helping one another confront such battles during courtship, which in turn serves to better prepare them for the greater rigors of married life.
My husband and I married young, outside the Church, completely unaware that in doing so I (the only Catholic party at the time) was commiting grave sin in doing so. Our marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Church. Later we had our marriage blessed, but there were many years when our marriage suffered greatly from that early lack of sacramental grace. Every young Catholic couple should be made aware of the grave nature of unsacramental marriage. That being said, we have a similar situation in our family with our oldest...I see a distinct difference in their marriage compared to the marriage of another child who married in the Church. We love both couples and spouses deeply, but it grieves us to witness the struggles that come from living outside the Church's plan for married life. Every couple entering married life in today's world needs and deserves the incredible gift of supernatural grace with which the Church blesses them through Holy Matrimony.
Sacramental grace makes a profound difference in young marriages. Any young couple considering courting or marriage could greatly benefit from reading "Three to Get Married" by Bishop Sheen and the newest translation of "Theology of the Body", edited by Michael Waldstein.
Stef and Elizabeth offered valid, inspired observations. We have experienced firsthand the challenges of limiting the amount of damage that can be done while loved ones "figure it all out" and we've learned through such experiences how God can transform what we might perceive as "permanent damage" into seeds of grace and opportunities to practice true mercy and love. Any words shared in this post are simply offered in loving concern from one who has witnessed the difficulties experienced in families where the Church's wisdom was not embraced...whether out of ignorance or stepping outside of God's will for married life, couples and their children often suffer the consequences when marriages are entered into without sacramental grace. May all young couples considering marriage be led to embrace the fullness of all that our Lord offers them through Holy Matrimony...the greatest wedding gift they can possibly receive is the incredible gift Christ offers through sacramental grace of Holy Matrimony, available only through His Church. Yes, grace can heal and transform when we step outside God's perfect plan for married life...but why not encourage young couples to begin their life together living in grace from the start?
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Nedra in So. CA
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Servant2theKing
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Nedra, I'm so sorry my post in any way offended you and that I misunderstood the circumstances. I agree with you that even with similar church and background there can still be challenging issues, even within courtship, as opposed to casual dating, etc. May the Lord bless your daughter and her future husband and may the issues that divide your families be covered by God's abundant and healing grace. As Stef said so wisely in her post, with God's grace wounds can indeed be healed.
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Nedra in So. CA
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Betsy
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To dove tail on this conversation, does anyone discuss/encourage/recommend to their dating children that when they get married they should be ready for children either immediately or say with in a year (not to presume that this is always possible)?
I believe I remember Kimberly Hahn talk about this a LONG time ago. Basically saying that if you want to get married you better be ready for kids vs. we are going to get married and live without kids for a time(say 3-6years) to get to know each other/pay down debt/start new job/etc.
Interested it what others have done with this specific question.
Betsy
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MaryM
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Catholic Answers had a radio program on courtship earlier this week. Dating vs. Courtship
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Mary M. in Denver
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Erin
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Well this talk has had me thinking again and I borrowed Josh Harris' book Boy Meets Girl from a young friend; dh and I are currently reading it. Actually he talks about the spirit of courtship, not the rules.
Anyhow I thought to share a little cultural aside with you all as I went down a little rabbit trail this morning. I was sharing with my sister what I was reading; nine years ago she spend 6 months living in the US as an exchange student at Purdee University, she told me that dating as the Americans mean is different to Australians.
Here's the dif; now correct me if it has changed in the last nine years, but I always find cultural differences fascinating. In America it is perfectly acceptable to 'date' more than one person at a time, you can date this one and that; correct? In Australia you can not do this, (you would have a VERY bad name) Sis tells me it is all a bit more formal than here. Going out for a meal is far more common. Australians rarely call it dating, dating is a pretty formal word. We have the term 'going out' which means you may go to the movies together or hang out together, go to a party together; depending on the age, if going out to a meal the younger you are the more likely both pay, and often you meet up downtown, not boy picks up girl from home. Alot is often done in groups, with friends. And if it is a bit more serious, such as you have 'gone out' more than say three times you may describe yourself as 'seeing him'.
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Erin
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: courtship revisited
