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BrendaPeter
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This whole idea of delaying adulthood is really striking me too in regard to education. We've recently enrolled our kids in a new classical school, CLAA which has prompted me to study the ideas behind a truly classical education a la St. Ignatius. The term "grammar" school comes from the concept that children were taught the grammar of their native tongue along with fluency in Latin & sometimes Greek in their very early years. By the age of 10-15, they were fluent in Latin for sure and ready for "college". It's amazing to me how our modern curriculum (even homeschool "classical" curriculum) delays the learning of Latin, Algebra & Geometry to a much later age than was previously done. Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but here's a book that can explain this better than I ever could.
Apparently Plato said "Youth is the time for extraordinary toil". Something to think about!
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Willa
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LeeAnn wrote:
| It reminded me of often-repeated criticisms of medieval and elizabethan parenting--children were treated and dressed as little adults and not seen as children. Always odd to see little kids in paintings wearing corsets and ruffs but I guess it reflected some ideas about what childhood was (infancy and toddlerhood and the years before the age of reason) and not just fashion. |
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Good point. There is a book by Neil Postman called The Disappearance of Childhood that makes the point that childhood in some ways was an artificial construct but his point is that it is a necessary and desirable construct.
Strikes me that there has to be a balance.
About Ignatian education -- I put up a chart that outlines the basic sequence here
also found here
This is from 1556.
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Willa
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Martha
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ruminating aloud here....
childhood as a desirable construct...
the construct of childhood, or of extending it to be mroe precise, as a desirable thing is mostly as an efficent means to an end...
for example without it, there is possibly no valid argument for making child labor, esp HARD labor, to be illegal. the marriage of what we current call minors and so forth as well as contractual issues that are often currently negated if entered with what we now deem a child or a minor.
I would like to contemplate that this often results in even more severe social problems. Teens fall in love, desire, and have children no different than they naturally and were biologicly inclined to do 100 years ago. Only now they are robbed of the opportunity to do so virtuously. Marriage, providing for themselves, spouse, children, and so forth are all if not denied outright are at least strongly and venemently discouraged. No, I wouldn't be thrilled to have a teen pregnancy in my home either. My point is simply that making things illegal or extending childhood does not remove the problem that it was invented to cure.
freedom permitted as long as it's not sinful....
I would argue we have the free will to sin. Freedom is not based on whether we choose to do right or not. If we don't have the freedom to sin, to mess up, to choose differently, then we don't really have freedom at all.
It seems to me that in reality in extending childhood is not freedom, it's a lack of it. They not only are severely restricted in the choices they have, even worse, they are restricted from sufferring the consequences of what few actions they are permitted and thus robbed of the ability to grow as a person by learning from their own mistakes.
again, I'm not sure what the answer is .. I'm just thinking aloud here... tryign to figure out what that blance between guidance and independance looks like...
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Martha
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CrunchyMom
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I can't imagine that childhood was completely artificial given the scriptural references to it. I love this Chesterton quote about God being childlike:
"Because children have abounding vitality, because they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say, "Do it again"; and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown-up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But perhaps God is strong enough to exult in monotony. It is possible that God says every morning, "Do it again" to the sun; and every evening, "Do it again" to the moon. It may not be automatic necessity that makes all daisies alike; it may be that God makes every daisy separately, but has never got tired of making them. It may be that He has the eternal appetite of infancy; for we have sinned and grown old, and our Father is younger than we."
— G.K. Chesterton (Orthodoxy)
So, it seems the balance in parenting is often creating a place where are children are free to be "childlike" as long as possible while teaching them not to obe "childish." They are different things, imo.
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Martha
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oh I agree lindsey!
I don't think anyone here is sayign all childhood is false. I know I'm not.
I think the real concern is the extention of childhood, or being childish as you phrase it, past when childish things should be put behind.
I would also agree there is a difference between child-like and childish.
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Martha
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Willa
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Martha wrote:
| It seems to me that in reality in extending childhood is not freedom, it's a lack of it. They not only are severely restricted in the choices they have, even worse, they are restricted from sufferring the consequences of what few actions they are permitted and thus robbed of the ability to grow as a person by learning from their own mistakes.. |
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I've definitely felt that in bringing up several children so far. Our society doesn't provide a way for adolescents to practice being adults.
Interesting PDF article I just stumbled across:
Is it time to reconsider the notion of adolescence?
Personally, I would put "children" in a different category than "adolescents". Adolescents are no longer children. I believe in doing a lot of sheltering in the younger years but I don't believe in cotton-wool for children over 12. However, the problem is that our society exposes adolescents to all sorts of dysfunctional models and content of adulthood while not letting them act like adults so far as responsibility and decision-making go. Toxic combination 
I do think that there is something about "gently brought up" that applies to adolescents, though. During harsher times children have to grow up fast and they often do very well at responding to the challenge. That doesn't mean its optimal, though.
Adolescence ought to be a time to nurture lifelong human qualities.... a time for mentoring from adults that's not purely vocational, but directed to fulfilling their human capacities.
I'm just thinking aloud, too, processing as I go; I haven't come to any conclusions.
I think about the rule that the higher the species is, the more time is necessary for parental training and mentoring. Turtles just hatch and go, while primates and dogs and horses, the animals with more intellectual and emotional potential, need a lot of nurturing, etc.
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Willa
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stefoodie
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i haven't read the book and have it in my to-read pile (argh -- it's a big stack!). i did want to share this link after reading this thread (great thread by the way!):
this may have been linked here before but this is from Alex and Brett, brothers -- not Catholic but they are wonderful, committed Christians:
The Myth of Adolescence -- that takes you to part 1. there's also a part 2 on the sidebar. great look from the teens' perspective.
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kingvozzo
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Great links, Stef and Willa. So much to think about...
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LeeAnn
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I was able to read most of WOMI (Weapons of Mass Instruction) last night and finished it up this morning. It wasn't quite as mind-blowing as I had been anticipating--probably because most of the good bits had already been posted here!  And that's *not* a criticism; in fact, this discussion has been a good summary of the best points of the book. And that's good because not everyone will have leisure to read it.
Like Brenda, my kids are beginning enrollment in some classes at CLAA. I am a believer in the power of a truly classical education to train a young person in logical thinking. We are Catholic. Our faith is something specific. We must be educated in how to think rightly in matters of faith. Some do come to the right conclusions naturally, but not most, I think.
So, that being said, I think Gatto (an Andrew Greely-like Catholic, if I guess correctly, based on some Wiki entries and reading two of his books) doesn't explore what education was like before modern schooling completely. He is a big fan of self-educated men like Franklin and Edison and Lincoln, but doesn't make any mention of the content of the schools that did exist. He likes the community/parent-run schools of the past but doesn't seem to consider WHAT they taught or how they taught it to be of much importance.
He seems very focussed on self-directed learning, bringing up example after example of nontraditional learners who failed in school but succeeded at life. (I don't always agree with his definition of success in life either, I think. The lap-dancer who won an Oscar for her screenplay of "Juno" comes to mind.)
I think self-directed learning is fine for teens who have mastered basic skills--but Gatto doesn't address much in this book how basic skills should be taught, other than perhaps homeschooling (learning from parents), or a very short time period of schooling--a few years rather than more than a decade.
Education before compulsory schooling laws was not self-directed in the schools--if you couldn't afford, didn't have access to or didn't want to enroll in a school, then, yes, it was self-directed. It just seemed a little frustrating to me that Gatto doesn't address the content of early American education while also giving the statistics of falling literacy rates after compulsory-schooling laws were passed.
Next, I wondered at some of Gatto's criticisms. He criticizes a young relative who stated she wanted to be a small part of something great (or close to that--can't find the quote now, of course). And I wondered about that because are we all supposed to want to be the best, the leader, the entrepreneur? Some must lead and some must follow, right? Gatto seems to live in world where everyone worthy is a leader. Maybe he's running away with his own hyperbole there. He also states that everyone over the age of 12 should be contributing something worthwhile to society. I agree (there are exceptions, of course).
But I wondered about the constant references to getting the government to "lift its boot of our necks." How does that attitude translate to other kinds of authority? Like parents or the Church? He doesn't address these issues directly.
As members of the Church, should we not be content with our role, however small, in the Body of Christ? We also must accept legitimate authority. Gatto takes obvious delight in being a nonconformist. He writes a long letter to his granddaughter on the nontraditional routes their ancestors have taken through life. I guess my basic concern is that Gatto doesn't seem to recognize the authority of anything but the Self. Or maybe I'm way off base; how did you all read it?
So, now to sing the praises of WOMI....
I think Gatto makes a persuasive case for the closure of state-run public schools. If all parents had to either educate their own children or pay someone directly to do so (with those tax dollars you'd save not supporting public schooling), they would be much more involved in the content of that schooling.
(I think there are situations in which the state should assist parents in educating children--especially for children with disabilities whose parents would otherwise not have access to specialized teachers.)
I think he's right that childhood ends about age 7. Between 7 and 12 children should be learning how to take on adult responsibilities and after 12 should exercising those responsibilities most of the time.
I liked his advice to raise children to think of supporting themselves independently; as a producer, not a consumer. What if I looked at it as my responsibility to help my child prepare for self-sufficiency rather putting that job on the university; would how I educate my child change? Maybe that's not clear.... If instead of my end goal being to educate my child well enough to be admitted to a "good" university (which isn't my actual goal anyway but I think it is of many parents) what if my goal were to raise my child to contribute to society right from the start, even before age 21 (or 18)? A university degree doesn't guarantee a job or a well-formed mind as reliably as it did in the past.
One last criticism (perhaps), I wasn't sure I bought into the idea that education submitted to the ideas of a free-market or capitalism really created an "open conspiracy" to keep adolscents childish because of the ever-present "fear of overproduction." Meaning: if more are producers and fewer are consumers then the powers-that-be lose power because no one needs to buy their products if they are already making it for themselves. I get where he is going with this (self-reliance is not conducive to getting people to buy goods and services) but he seems to be judging the people who founded and work in corporations very harshly. There's more to say there, but that is perhaps a very different topic.
A very LONG post, sorry. 
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Willa
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Couldn't help looking up the quote from Plato when I saw it a few weeks ago on the CLAA site, since Plato's said some other things that sound rather different from that, including that school for young children should be like play -- anyway, here's the thing in context (from the Republic):
Quote:
Solon was under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows old may learn many things —for he can no more learn much than he can run much; youth is the time for any extraordinary toil.
Of course.
And, therefore, calculation and geometry and all the other elements of instruction, which are a preparation for dialectic, should be presented to the mind in childhood; not, however, under any notion of forcing our system of education.
Why not?
Because a freeman ought not to be a slave in the acquisition of knowledge of any kind. Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
Very true.
Then, my good friend, I said, do not use compulsion, but let early education be a sort of amusement; you will then be better able to find out the natural bent.
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Willa
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That Plato. What a smarty. 
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Willa
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| This whole idea of delaying adulthood is really striking me too in regard to education. ... |
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I agree with what you say about education nowadays tending to dumb down the child. From what I read in another book by Gatto, the "dumbing down" was somewhat intentional -- schools became increasingly run on a factory model precisely because some educational forces hoped to train workers for the factories.
This seemed to get tangled up with another movement towards making schooling "fun" and "relevant" for the kids. CM called that "twaddle".
This is NOT what Plato meant when he said that learning should be an amusement to the young child. At least, I wouldn't think so. I would think he was thinking of a child as a human being who would be stimulated and intrigued by content of true interest to the human being.
This seems in accordance with the Ignatian goal. Students were taught by a mixture of literature and language, which go very close to the heart of what we are as human beings. Language -- it is in so many ways part of our heritage as created in God's own image.
Sure, the students worked hard, but working hard for a worthwhile goal is something people tend to relish if they get in the habit of doing so. It's something that the free man does. A child isn't a man or woman yet but the big picture ought to be trained towards training him to be one.
I would imagine your children might rather enjoy the challenge of working on really meaningful goals in an organized, mastery-based way, Brenda. Not that they wouldn't find it difficult sometimes but I always find my kids feel better about their assigned academics if they are streamlined to what is really important and worthwhile.
Whereas I felt rather sorry for my poor public high schooler last year, having to spend many pains on material that really wasn't essential or presented in a "human-oriented" way. Language arts and geometry were his favorite subjects (besides PE and football!  ), probably because they were the closest to the heart of what's really important in education.
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Willa
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Faithr
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I often use the word 'fun' when talking about what curriculum I like to use. But I don't mean fun in the made up busy work kind of way, but something that is truly engaging to the child.
The thing that jumps out at me though, in the quote from Plato is when he says 'knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.' I think that shows his basic respect for the dignity of the person, even if that person is only a child. Also I like how he is interested in finding the child's natural bent. This is the opposite of the factory model.
I think as homeschoolers we are exceptionally well suited to bringing up our children in a way that joyfully engages them in learning about the world. But I think we need to do it in a way that is very different from the institutional mindset that thinks every child must perform at a certain level at certain ages. I think in a family learning context, education is personal, not an abstraction applied across the board. It is a mother delightfully watching her child blossom. It is a child, loved and secure, eagerly exploring life.
Anyway, just butting in here with my two cents worth! I just joined and the conversations are fascinating!
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Bookswithtea
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Martha wrote:
I would like to contemplate that this often results in even more severe social problems. Teens fall in love, desire, and have children no different than they naturally and were biologicly inclined to do 100 years ago. Only now they are robbed of the opportunity to do so virtuously. Marriage, providing for themselves, spouse, children, and so forth are all if not denied outright are at least strongly and venemently discouraged. No, I wouldn't be thrilled to have a teen pregnancy in my home either. My point is simply that making things illegal or extending childhood does not remove the problem that it was invented to cure.
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I think about this a lot, Martha. Here's an article by Orthodox author Frederica Matthewes Green that I read years ago but never quite forgot, that is pertinent to your considerations on marriage.
Frederica Matthewes Green's article on teen pregnancy
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Willa
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I fixed the link, Books  It was an interesting read -- I love her writing.
Also I thought I'd quote CLAA's whole bit in context since I did the same to Plato and it seems to fit the discussion:
Quote:
| Families must also commit to cultivating a spirit of sobriety and maturity among their children, rather than allowing the perpetual childishness that ruins American children. Children are considered morally accountable by the age of their first confession and this should be taken seriously. There is no excuse for inordinate play, entertainment, etc.. "Youth is the time for extraordinary toil." said Plato. |
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I can go along pretty well with that. .... the only thing I'd add is that according to John Holt and CM (and I kind of agree with them) --- most kids don't WANT to be stuck in a childish ghetto. They want to be adults. But since so many adults are childish and immature, especially public figures, that is the kids' role model.
The other thing is that our society doesn't really seem to WANT our children to be grown-up, and that's the point of the Matthewes-Green article. It is threatening to people to think of teenagers out in the world making their own decisions. The culture has an odd interest in keeping adolescents childish and powerless for as long as possible -- sometimes well into adulthood.
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Willa
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Barbara C.
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Quote:
| Next, I wondered at some of Gatto's criticisms. He criticizes a young relative who stated she wanted to be a small part of something great (or close to that--can't find the quote now, of course). And I wondered about that because are we all supposed to want to be the best, the leader, the entrepreneur? Some must lead and some must follow, right? |
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LeeAnn, I remember the quote you are to which you are referring although I can't find it either. I think the point that Gatto was making was that here was a girl that had just graduated college who was happily saying: "My goal in life is to be a follower." She doesn't really specify a follower of what, though. (Showing quite a bit of naivete.) There are times to follow, but we must also be prepared to lead if necessary. And hopefully we are following something worthy. I think he felt that it was sad that at 22 she was in a way limiting her own potential. She wasn't saying that I want to and can do great things, but I am only good enough to help others do great things.
Quote:
| But I wondered about the constant references to getting the government to "lift its boot of our necks." How does that attitude translate to other kinds of authority? Like parents or the Church? He doesn't address these issues directly. |
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I think he is mainly concerned about schools, because he emphasizes again that one of the worst things about schools is the intention to make parents disrespect and disregard their parents...to break up the family. Your faith is something to which you choose to submit (even if you are raised in a certain faith you must eventually choose for yourself). However, the government tries to to force school on the masses. Especially, if you read some of his other writing, it's less that he is against school but compulsory schooling. He thinks that if school was not made compulsory than a lot of the bad stuff about schools would resolve itself.
Quote:
I think self-directed learning is fine for teens who have mastered basic skills--but Gatto doesn't address much in this book how basic skills should be taught, other than perhaps homeschooling (learning from parents), or a very short time period of schooling--a few years rather than more than a decade.
Education before compulsory schooling laws was not self-directed in the schools--if you couldn't afford, didn't have access to or didn't want to enroll in a school, then, yes, it was self-directed. It just seemed a little frustrating to me that Gatto doesn't address the content of early American education while also giving the statistics of falling literacy rates after compulsory-schooling laws were passed. |
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I seem to remember that he goes more into what schools were like before they became compulsory in Underground History of American Education. Of course, before it was compulsory most "public" schools only went through about 8th grade, leaving adolescents free to explore and take on adult work. I seem to remember him having great respect for the one-room school house, and he obviously respect the Amish who attend school through 8th grade.
The other book also gets into more specifics of why literacy rates dropped (mostly due to whole-language reading replacing phonics) and other issues like that. I think this book is supposed to take that one to the next level and challenge people to work past the fallacy that "more schooling = more education", to think of ways to subvert and overcome the system, and to don't limit their own potential or allow others to do it for them. Why give in to being a wretched human being when you could aspire to be a saint?
Quote:
| I get where he is going with this (self-reliance is not conducive to getting people to buy goods and services) but he seems to be judging the people who founded and work in corporations very harshly. |
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Gatto praises people whose goal is to provide a service and make a little money while doing it. I think his criticism is for corporations whose services are just a means to make as much money as possible. Look no farther than the medical industry. Yes, most doctors sincerely want to help people, but often over their heads are CEO's, CFO's, etc who are really more concerned about making as much profit as possible even if they have to hurt or exploit other people to do it. I worked in medical billing for two different companies and let's just say I saw the darker side of something that it is supposed to be about providing a needed service. (In fact I often think of schooling and medicine the same way.)
Greedy corporations have a vested interest in keeping the people dumb. I don't think most founders and corporate workers are fully aware of the role compulsory schooling has in their lives in this era; they are too well "schooled" themselves. But usually the most important thing is the money and what's best for the company itself, employees are just a means to an end.
My mother and I were just talking about the company she retired from. She was offered her retirement package because the new CEO believed that "if you worked at a job for ten years you've worked there five years to long". A high turn-over rate means you can pay new employees less money than long-term ones...making more profits. This is one reason that McDonald's is so anti-union...they like having a high over-turn of young employees that they can pay cheaply.
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Barbara
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BrendaPeter
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Willa wrote:
Quote:
Solon was under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows old may learn many things —for he can no more learn much than he can run much; youth is the time for any extraordinary toil.
Of course.
And, therefore, calculation and geometry and all the other elements of instruction, which are a preparation for dialectic, should be presented to the mind in childhood; not, however, under any notion of forcing our system of education.
Why not?
Because a freeman ought not to be a slave in the acquisition of knowledge of any kind. Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
Very true.
Then, my good friend, I said, do not use compulsion, but let early education be a sort of amusement; you will then be better able to find out the natural bent.
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Thx Willa for this!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Barbara C.
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I find the article on teen pregnancy interesting, but I couldn't help thinking that it was taking the "teens are going to do it anyway so we may as well give them 'ABC'" tactic and changing it to "teens are going to do it anyway so we may as well encourage them to marry young". However, isn't what separates us from the animals supposed to be our ability to take control of our base instincts to an extent??
I mean what about those who are truly called to living a celibate life? It seems like the author is saying that teens are incapable of celibate chastity, so we may as well throw in the towel. I do agree that serial dating damages people, basically preparing them for divorce.
This is kind of off topic of the thread, but I was reading somewhere (can't remember where at this point) about how when you look at teen s*x rates the numbers are really off when you compare boys and girls because most of the girls are actually involved with adult men, not other teenagers. Of course, that's a whole other discussion about maturity and false maturity.
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Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
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Willa
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| Posted: July 06 2009 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
However, isn't what separates us from the animals supposed to be our ability to take control of our base instincts to an extent??
I mean what about those who are truly called to living a celibate life? It seems like the author is saying that teens are incapable of celibate chastity, so we may as well throw in the towel. |
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I think that's very true on an individual basis. Individual people can certainly resist and take control of their instincts for the right reasons.
Perhaps it's different when you're talking on a society-wide basis though. ST Paul said "better to marry than to burn" 1 Cor 7:9 -- recommending prompt marriage for those unfitted for the celibate life -- and St Augustine thought it was partly his aristocratic society's tendency to "wait until late" to marry that contributed to his own downfall -- living with a woman he was not married to for several years and having a son with her.
Nowadays most people around you will get more shocked and distressed at a 17 year old getting married than they will at a 16 year old getting pregnant or having s*x with her boyfriend. Weird  -- you can see their reasoning from a worldly perspective but it is still strange.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: July 06 2009 at 3:07pm | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
Perhaps it's different when you're talking on a society-wide basis though. ST Paul said "better to marry than to burn" 1 Cor 7:9 -- recommending prompt marriage for those unfitted for the celibate life -- and St Augustine thought it was partly his aristocratic society's tendency to "wait until late" to marry that contributed to his own downfall -- living with a woman he was not married to for several years and having a son with her.
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I do think this is more what the author was getting at. Frederica is devoutly Orthodox and I'm pretty sure they have their own monastic equivalent of nuns/sisters, so I don't think she was suggesting that celibacy is unrealistic.
I also think its pertinent to this discussion because early marriage is generally discouraged in our society, but biologically, our bodies may very well be at their best for babyhood at 18ish. Waiting until post graduate school is completed, a house is owned, etc...just may be asking too much of the person who is not called to long term celibacy. It wasn't that long ago that people did still marry out of high school (50 yrs or so???).
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Gatto's "Weapons of Mass Instruction"
