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12stars
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Babs wrote:
Claudia,
I think you are correct that it is so difficult for young people today to not be influenced by the relativism, secular media, and pressure that they are bombarded with all day, every day. Young people today may have a more comfortable life in many, many ways but they have to be tough and stand up to all kinds of horrible "acceptable" behavior that teens in the past may not have had to witness, let alone had to reject when it is presented as perfectly acceptable. But when I look around me and see all of the youth who are living in this time where they have been placed in history and are able to not be "of this world", I see so many reasons to hope.
I wonder if the super kids of today that shine in everything they do are that way because they are using the gifts they were given by God in their lives to the best of their ability, just as the super kids of the past captained ships, ran plantations, raised children as teens, etc. I think it is so important for children to use all of the gifts and graces that have been bestowed on them, and to always discern God's will for them, for whatever he calls them to.
In my experience with my son and his friends, I saw young men who were daily mass attendees, and spent their spare time at the Catholic Student Center, being involved however they could. They spent Friday nights with other Catholic college students hanging out at the local nursing home, gaining a lot of wisdom by just playing cards and listening to the elderly. And although they were intelligent, good kids doing good things, sometimes when you spoke to them you could catch a very fleeting glimpse of a lack of maturity needed to make (and understand the consequences of) decisions. I really believe that in their early twenties, it was just time that was needed.
And I have also seen parents who did not realize that their job is not over just because their child is excelling in some areas. As Barbara stated above, "parents often confuse mature ability with mature thinking." I have never been a believer in the village raising a child, so much as his parents with a backbone doing the job. I think this is a hard time to parent (maybe it always is), and with less support available through the extended family than ever before. One thing that hasn't changed in parenting teens today and teens in the past is our wonderful opportunity and responsibility to raise our children in the Church and to prepare them to make their way to heaven.
God Bless,
Barb |
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Barb
You said what I was thinking but couldn't really put into words. I see so much in our real life that it is wonderful that your son is that way I hope and pray for that for my sons when they come of age. That makes me feel so good when I do see young men that have a faith that makes them upright men and fathers or priests.
How much we need good priests.
__________________
Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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stellamaris
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One thought that has not been mentioned in this very fascinating thread is the impact of fathers being out of the home on the developing maturity of, especially, sons. Sometimes I wonder if this is why my daughters seem to have matured more rapidly...they have more example and influence from me, their same-sex role model. It seems that most of these notable men had the influence of either a strong father or other strong man in their early lives. We could even consider JPII, who was basically raised by his father and brothers. Today, with fathers outside the home for extended periods of time, young men are being raised almost exclusively by women. Nothing against moms, but, let's face it, we're MOMS! I have noticed that my husband puts more serious pressure on the children to assume their responsibilities, to do their work well and in a timely fashion, and to generally grow-up. In fact, this is a common source of friction in families...dad pushing kids, being "hard" on them, and mom protecting, defending, and "doing for" the children. God in His wisdom provided this natural balance, but with the fathers gone from the scene in our current culture, family interactions have lost their balance. Furthermore, the whole role of men in our society, and within our families, is generally denigrated. If they want to be proper parents, they need to be like mom (think about it...they need to "relate", change diapers, be "sensitive", etc.)Their God-given masculinity is just not accepted or appreciated. And this problem is seen often in homeschooling families as well. How often do we, as moms, resist our husbands' input, because we feel we understand the children better than he does, or because we think he's just being too harsh and demanding? In fact, we don't even recognize this lack of respect toward our husbands anymore as a cultural issue, but just think our husbands are off-base. However, as has been pointed out above, in the past societal roles were more defined and women were more respectful of their husbands. As a consequence, young men were more respected for their abilities and more inclined to exercise self-control, because they felt themselves to be called to a position of authority in the family structure, if not in general society. I believe this contributes significantly to this maturity delay.
(This is sort of rambling, but it's early and I haven't had any coffee, so the brain is not really functioning yet, but hopefully you get my general point  )
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Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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BrendaPeter
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stellamaris wrote:
One thought that has not been mentioned in this very fascinating thread is the impact of fathers being out of the home on the developing maturity of, especially, sons. Sometimes I wonder if this is why my daughters seem to have matured more rapidly...they have more example and influence from me, their same-sex role model. It seems that most of these notable men had the influence of either a strong father or other strong man in their early lives. We could even consider JPII, who was basically raised by his father and brothers. Today, with fathers outside the home for extended periods of time, young men are being raised almost exclusively by women. Nothing against moms, but, let's face it, we're MOMS! I have noticed that my husband puts more serious pressure on the children to assume their responsibilities, to do their work well and in a timely fashion, and to generally grow-up. In fact, this is a common source of friction in families...dad pushing kids, being "hard" on them, and mom protecting, defending, and "doing for" the children. God in His wisdom provided this natural balance, but with the fathers gone from the scene in our current culture, family interactions have lost their balance. Furthermore, the whole role of men in our society, and within our families, is generally denigrated. If they want to be proper parents, they need to be like mom (think about it...they need to "relate", change diapers, be "sensitive", etc.)Their God-given masculinity is just not accepted or appreciated. And this problem is seen often in homeschooling families as well. How often do we, as moms, resist our husbands' input, because we feel we understand the children better than he does, or because we think he's just being too harsh and demanding? In fact, we don't even recognize this lack of respect toward our husbands anymore as a cultural issue, but just think our husbands are off-base. However, as has been pointed out above, in the past societal roles were more defined and women were more respectful of their husbands. As a consequence, young men were more respected for their abilities and more inclined to exercise self-control, because they felt themselves to be called to a position of authority in the family structure, if not in general society. I believe this contributes significantly to this maturity delay.
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Majorly hit the nail on the head here Caroline!!! BINGO!! This is OH, so true!!
The bottom line is that as heads of the family, our husbands are give the graces that WE ARE NOT! There are certain decisions that we are not capable of making. Once we recognize that, we will learn how to truly submit to their authority.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Barbara C.
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I agree that the presence of the Father is very important in the development of boys and girls. And I do not believe that mothers and fathers are interchangeable.
However, I do not agree that men are more capable to make certain decisions just by the fact of being male. Some could argue that the break-down of culture has set back the maturity of men the most. True the expectation may be for the man to change diapers, be more sensitive, and help around the house, but in reality I see much more in the families around me of the man acting like another one of the children. In many ways the break-down of traditional roles has led less to men doing more traditional female jobs but to women doing traditional male jobs in addition to traditional female jobs. This disconnect between the ideal touted by culture and the reality experienced in the home is probably a major cause for divorces.
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Barbara
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stellamaris
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I have wondered a lot about this, Laura. I mean, is there some way we could treat our teens more like adults within our culture that might encourage them in right directions? |
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This seems to be the main question this thread raises. Is it possible in our current culture to create an environment that produces mature, responsible men and women at a reasonable  age? My husband and I have been discussing this very topic the last few weeks, so this thread is very pertinent. I'm really not sure it is possible. First of all, as I mentioned above, you've got a general breakdown of family structure, the lack of direct contact with fathers in productive pursuits that contribute to the family economy, and the decline in respect for authority happening pretty much across the board. Then, the influence of secular media, both directly conveying ideas that impact behavior and belief and indirectly affecting neural development of the brain (as in, The Profound Influence of Music on Life-scroll down- or Endangered Minds), is pervasive and very hard to escape as children grow older and are more "in the world". Many of us are trying to counteract these trends, but we have no support that I can see from the general society. There are days when I despair. The loss of culture and faith has been so significant over the course of my lifetime, and the causes so obscure that one hardly knows where to begin to work toward the rebuilding of a Christian society and family. I remember my father remarking years ago, "When did everything become so ugly?" I remind myself, though, that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. Truly, the saints in the last days will be great simply for remaining in the truth of the Faith if these conditions continue to persist in so-called Christian nations. So, I guess we start there...reinforcing the Truth in the way we live within our own homes. After all, maturity is perhaps best understood as a measure of one's conformity to Christ.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Bookswithtea
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stellamaris wrote:
(This is sort of rambling, but it's early and I haven't had any coffee, so the brain is not really functioning yet, but hopefully you get my general point ) |
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Not rambling at all, Caroline. More like hitting the nail on the head. When I think about the Amish boys I see, that is one of the factors that makes their life so much different from ours. They are in regular contact with their fathers and like minded men from the community. I agree that mature thinking and mature behavior are not the same thing, but I do think there is still something to be said for allowing boys to be men earlier. Responsibility also is part of the maturing process. Our society's sons are usually allowed grown up privileges without much in the way of grown up responsibilities (and here I'm thinking about working most of the day, considering marriage and a future, not just driving a car and imagining themselves as students in college for 8-12 yrs after high school). jmho.
I really want to read the Gatto book now.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Willa
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Another point that occurs to me -- I found this article by Anthony Esolen while I was looking for something else:
A Requiem for Friendship
It makes the point that the concept of masculine friendship has gone by the board to an extent. I can vouch for how awkward teenage boys feel about their friendships and how likely they are to be called "g@y" if they don't have some acceptable "channel" for their friendships -- gangs and team athletics seem to be the primary places where male friendships can thrive after a fashion, and even then there has to be a lot of jostling and harassing to "prove" to everyone that there is nothing weird about the friendships. The days of Frodo and Sam or David and Jonathan are gone, it seems.
The article makes the point that this is a great loss to a typical boy's intellectual and emotional development. Interesting to read in light of the discussion.
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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Willa wrote:
Another point that occurs to me -- I found this article by Anthony Esolen while I was looking for something else:
A Requiem for Friendship
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Thx so much for this Willa. I'm a big Anthony Esolen fan. Hoping he'll come to our local friary to speak as he's only about 1 hour away (Providence College) from us.
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KerryK
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I've been reading this book for my graduate work and find it pretty riveting. No one explains the history of compulsory schooling like Gatto!
Great thread, there is so much to think about here.
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Kerry
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Matthew (10)
Mary (6)
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stellamaris wrote:
One thought that has not been mentioned in this very fascinating thread is the impact of fathers being out of the home on the developing maturity of, especially, sons. Sometimes I wonder if this is why my daughters seem to have matured more rapidly...they have more example and influence from me, their same-sex role model. It seems that most of these notable men had the influence of either a strong father or other strong man in their early lives. We could even consider JPII, who was basically raised by his father and brothers. Today, with fathers outside the home for extended periods of time, young men are being raised almost exclusively by women. Nothing against moms, but, let's face it, we're MOMS! I have noticed that my husband puts more serious pressure on the children to assume their responsibilities, to do their work well and in a timely fashion, and to generally grow-up. In fact, this is a common source of friction in families...dad pushing kids, being "hard" on them, and mom protecting, defending, and "doing for" the children. God in His wisdom provided this natural balance, but with the fathers gone from the scene in our current culture, family interactions have lost their balance. Furthermore, the whole role of men in our society, and within our families, is generally denigrated. If they want to be proper parents, they need to be like mom (think about it...they need to "relate", change diapers, be "sensitive", etc.)Their God-given masculinity is just not accepted or appreciated. And this problem is seen often in homeschooling families as well. How often do we, as moms, resist our husbands' input, because we feel we understand the children better than he does, or because we think he's just being too harsh and demanding? In fact, we don't even recognize this lack of respect toward our husbands anymore as a cultural issue, but just think our husbands are off-base. However, as has been pointed out above, in the past societal roles were more defined and women were more respectful of their husbands. As a consequence, young men were more respected for their abilities and more inclined to exercise self-control, because they felt themselves to be called to a position of authority in the family structure, if not in general society. I believe this contributes significantly to this maturity delay.
(This is sort of rambling, but it's early and I haven't had any coffee, so the brain is not really functioning yet, but hopefully you get my general point ) |
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Wow Caroline - wonderfully put - I had to include your whole quote! This is something my dh and I are discussing a lot at the moment. I have just read books by the Duggars and the Maxwells - and it is interesting to note in both cases how the fathers are working side by side with the children and how the sons (and daughters) seem to take on more responsibility earlier - and in a positive way.
I just managed to order the new Gatto and the Endangered Minds book from the library - they have been on my wish list for ever - managed to find them through ILL.
This is a great thread.
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Marilyn
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mooreboyz
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This is a fascinating thread. My oldest just turned 12 and so we are just entering this stage of life. However, I definitely see that supplying the boys with meaningful work is needed. Just as in Montessori we learn that toddlers who are running around getting into mischief settle and focus when given a purposeful task, my older boys are the same way. If they are going around messing with each other (boredom) and I tell them to go out and mess around with some wood and nails they have no interest...tell them I need them to build 50 tomato cages and show them how and they are just like those toddlers pouring rice...focused, happy, and proud of themselves. So, I have found that this is critical and plan to incorporate lots of this in daily life.
Also, dh and I have often discussed how there seems to have been a generational turn sometime in the mid 1990's. I graduated high school in 92 and my friends and I all had jobs, we moved out after graduation and got our own places, paid for our own college with our jobs too. My brother on the other hand is 6 years younger. We were both raised with the same parents, in the same house, except I could see a shift in how he didn't get a job, didn't move out, go to college...there wasn't the motivation there at all. I see the same thing in the majority of teens from that time to the current. We wonder if it had something to do with the economy getting so strong and parents having the extra resources to buy kids whatever they wanted...the kids didn't need to get a job in order to buy those expensive sneakers because mom would buy them for them (so they never learned the value of a dollar or work). Then came a lot of the over parenting and over scheduling kids...soccer on Mon, scouts on Tues, piano Wed...etc.. I'm all in favor of kids being involved in activities, but I think all us here know when it becomes too much it doesn't work for anyone. Also, particular tv and video games, I think, are also an issue. Some shows project to teens that they should be lazy and dumb and disrespectful in order to be cool...I have seen my own sons watch these for a while and take on the attitude which is when I shut to box off. And when the biggest accomplishment in a teens life is mastering some level on a video game, well there is a problem.
Oh, I know I got rambling...sorry. But, like many of you my dh and I have been discussing this for years and desperately want to break that cycle and raise strong, confident young men.
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Jackie
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BrendaPeter
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mooreboyz wrote:
| This is a fascinating thread. My oldest just turned 12 and so we are just entering this stage of life. However, I definitely see that supplying the boys with meaningful work is needed. Just as in Montessori we learn that toddlers who are running around getting into mischief settle and focus when given a purposeful task, my older boys are the same way. If they are going around messing with each other (boredom) and I tell them to go out and mess around with some wood and nails they have no interest...tell them I need them to build 50 tomato cages and show them how and they are just like those toddlers pouring rice...focused, happy, and proud of themselves. So, I have found that this is critical and plan to incorporate lots of this in daily life. |
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Bingo!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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CrunchyMom
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BrendaPeter wrote:
mooreboyz wrote:
| This is a fascinating thread. My oldest just turned 12 and so we are just entering this stage of life. However, I definitely see that supplying the boys with meaningful work is needed. Just as in Montessori we learn that toddlers who are running around getting into mischief settle and focus when given a purposeful task, my older boys are the same way. If they are going around messing with each other (boredom) and I tell them to go out and mess around with some wood and nails they have no interest...tell them I need them to build 50 tomato cages and show them how and they are just like those toddlers pouring rice...focused, happy, and proud of themselves. So, I have found that this is critical and plan to incorporate lots of this in daily life. |
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Bingo! |
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I just posted a link in this thread to an article I think is interesting. It isn't specifically about young people, but I think it says a lot about how today even adults with "real" jobs seem to lack "meaningful work." It also speaks of different ethical lessons that can stem from such work.
The Case for Working With Your HAnds
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Lindsay
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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BrendaPeter wrote:
mooreboyz wrote:
| This is a fascinating thread. My oldest just turned 12 and so we are just entering this stage of life. However, I definitely see that supplying the boys with meaningful work is needed. Just as in Montessori we learn that toddlers who are running around getting into mischief settle and focus when given a purposeful task, my older boys are the same way. If they are going around messing with each other (boredom) and I tell them to go out and mess around with some wood and nails they have no interest...tell them I need them to build 50 tomato cages and show them how and they are just like those toddlers pouring rice...focused, happy, and proud of themselves. So, I have found that this is critical and plan to incorporate lots of this in daily life. |
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Bingo! |
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I guess this also gets back to the original question, where does the transition take place or how does one observe it?
Truly, pouring rice isn't meaningful work unless it is being poured into a pot to cook, but I recognize that for a toddler, it has a purpose much akin to meaningful work and the sense of fulfillment for a toddler is much the same.
My five years this week ds went earlier in the week with his dad to help a friend move apartments. He worked hard actually *helping* to carry those things that are too awkward for a box but light enough for a boy (like pillows and wire shoe racks). He wasn't in the way underfoot, and I think it gave him a big sense of fulfillment to have helped in this way with the adults. He didn't even need to be constantly directed. He soon realized what he could do to help and just worked alongside everyone else. Some adults can't even help in this way (recognize on their own what should be done and then just do it).
Not sure what my point is exactly--only to say both that young children are capable of more meaningful work early on that most people give them credit and that before a certain time, it seems (through the obvious successes of Montessori) they are able to view less obviously meaningful things as such.
Is it the physical activity (i. e., working with their hands) that is a key factor in this? The modern example given is a boy mechanic (which is the adult example in the article I cited). Most of the historical examples likely grew up on farms or were at least given to hard manual labor early in life. Are the lessons learned from this type of work part of what creates the cognitive (and even ethical/spiritual) ability to be independent earlier?
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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BrendaPeter
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Not to get off topic, but Mike Rowe, the guy from the show "Dirty Jobs" is on a mission to make the word WORK a clean word again. The 1st few minutes of this talk is yucky but it's worth sticking with it.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Martha
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I have two things to toss out for discussion on this book/topic.
firstly, there was the question of "how to" to get our children out of childhood and other path of being educated. Gatto's response was this under the topic of, Detach the Training Wheels! (bottom p. 136 - 137
wow. I was talking to dh about this last night and we figure we are missing much of that, but the disgust of being "babied" or "hand-held" or to use Gatto's term, given training wheels is absolutely there. And I have to admit my grandparents woudl have felt the same way and I certainly had a rough childhood that allowed me the freedom to do things I haven't been trusting enough to permit my own children to handle. I've held for some time that "teen rebelion" is nothing more than young adults rebelling at being treated unnaturally young and incapable. (IOW, if they are biologicly geared to be young adults with all that it entails, there should be a natural backlash to trying to subvert that.)
The other thing I wanted to ask was if anyone knows if Gatto is a catholic basher? He repeated compares in nothing but sarcastic and disparging way the role of schooling/beauacracy with catholic church. There's several comparive references. But the most obvious is under the title of Give Up the Cathedral.
Although I understood the analogy just fine, it left a decidedly sour taste in my mind, kwim?
Laura/Cactus MOuse? Your opinion?
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Martha
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folklaur
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Martha wrote:
Laura/Cactus MOuse? Your opinion?
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let me pull the book back out and start reading again. i had to put it aside, as i am in a book discussion on "The Unlikely Disciple."
will get back to you soon :)
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Bookswithtea
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Martha wrote:
I have two things to toss out for discussion on this book/topic.
firstly, there was the question of "how to" to get our children out of childhood and other path of being educated. Gatto's response was this under the topic of, Detach the Training Wheels! (bottom p. 136 - 137
wow. I was talking to dh about this last night and we figure we are missing much of that, but the disgust of being "babied" or "hand-held" or to use Gatto's term, given training wheels is absolutely there. And I have to admit my grandparents woudl have felt the same way and I certainly had a rough childhood that allowed me the freedom to do things I haven't been trusting enough to permit my own children to handle. I've held for some time that "teen rebelion" is nothing more than young adults rebelling at being treated unnaturally young and incapable. (IOW, if they are biologicly geared to be young adults with all that it entails, there should be a natural backlash to trying to subvert that.)
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Martha, can you share any examples from the book about this? Dh read Wild at Heart a few years ago (prot. book about men being men in a culture that no longer encourages that) and one of the things he took away from it was to trust sons with big and dangerous things if we want them to act like men. He gave examples like caring for the cows if you are a rancher, or driving your truck at 14 if you own land, etc. I am wondering if this is the same sort of thing you are getting at?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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asplendidtime
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| Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:49am | IP Logged
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Coming late to this discussion, and I didn't read the thread through carefully, but I was wanting to answer mainly the O.P....
I recently enjoyed listening to the series of podcasts on Thatmom, on the Moore's research... Which actually seems to suggest contrary to what Mr Gatto is saying. Their research shows that the part of the human brain which is responsible for discretion and also critical thinking only begins to develop at age 12, but is slow going as they age, hence the adolescent years.... This part is located beneath the forehead, they believe incidentally that it is the reason when someone is trying to think through something they may tap the forehead, it is believed it increases blood flow to the front of the brain and may help you to think.
If you'd like to hear the program you could click to this link , it was the first podcast in particular. Good thoughts in the series seem to point to a different conclusion, in other words not rushing children to be little adults before they are ready... Kind of like the same sensibility to potty train at readiness and reading instruction at readiness.
Two cents from a mom with little ones.
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Rebecca~Mama to
Noah 17,
Katie 16,
Mary 14,
Tim 13,
Jonah 12,
Josh 10,
Zoe 9,
Will 7,
Peter 6,
Laura-Mae 4,
Emily-Joy 2,
Genevieve & Gabriella 1
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asplendidtime
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| Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:52am | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Martha, can you share any examples from the book about this? Dh read Wild at Heart a few years ago (prot. book about men being men in a culture that no longer encourages that) and one of the things he took away from it was to trust sons with big and dangerous things if we want them to act like men. He gave examples like caring for the cows if you are a rancher, or driving your truck at 14 if you own land, etc. I am wondering if this is the same sort of thing you are getting at? |
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My parents raised us this way. But we had lots of accidents, especially my brothers. Dh had the same experience... Lots of accidents. I just wish there was a bit more balance when Gatto and others give this advice, parents need a warning that the discretion is not there, they are not men, they are young men.
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Rebecca~Mama to
Noah 17,
Katie 16,
Mary 14,
Tim 13,
Jonah 12,
Josh 10,
Zoe 9,
Will 7,
Peter 6,
Laura-Mae 4,
Emily-Joy 2,
Genevieve & Gabriella 1
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Gatto's "Weapons of Mass Instruction"
