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MarilynW
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| Posted: April 23 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Lisa - really useful information. Now i am off to sell it to my dh!!
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Marilyn
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Carole N.
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 4:35am | IP Logged
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Marilyn, I realize that I may be a bit late at adding my two cents, but I just want to second everything that Lisa said. I have both the TWSS and the TWI and I agree that what you need is the TWSS and any of the supplemental history/fairy tales/poetry packages.
We used the TWSS first with a group of homeschoolers. Then we used the TWI after we moved over here. I have used the fairy tales with my dd and she loved it. Last summer, I purchased my own copy of TWSS. I plan to revisit the TWSS soon since it has been awhile and we are always tweaking our grammar and our style.
I plan on ordering more of the writing packages and I am seriously considering the history. Lisa, you should tell Andrew that you want a commission! 
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 Carole ... in Wales
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Carole N.
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 4:54am | IP Logged
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Lisa, thanks for the tip on watching the dvds. In our class, my friend did the teaching, so I have not actually taught the TWSS yet. The Fix-It program sounds wonderful. In that same class, we used the Editor-In-Chief program. I liked it, but sometimes the children were a bit more challenged. We had a very wide age range, so that could have contributed to some of it.
I have the essay program. I like it for two reasons. First, it let me know what was expected on the SAT. It includes examples of acceptable and unacceptable essays. So you can see from the very beginning about where your child falls in the range. Second, it really prepares the students to write a timed essay and that can be a bit frightening for most people. I think that once they actually complete a few timed essays, it will give them a great sense of accomplishment. My ds can write, but it would not be his first choice!
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Carole ... in Wales
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Mackfam
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I'm ducking the digital tomatoes...  ...but we don't like IEW. I tried it, multiple times, multiple years, and we just couldn't make it work in our family. I keep hanging on to it because it works for so many, and because I know a tool may not work one year, but may another or with another child.
It's hard to say why we didn't like it...and when I say "we" I mean I didn't care for it and neither did the kids. They didn't hate it. I mean they would do the little writing assignments, but it didn't make them want to write more and it didn't translate into a better writing product for us...in short...it didn't help their writing or foster a love of writing. Some of that could have been because I didn't like it. I'm a creative person by nature, and this removed all of the creativity from writing for me and made it a formula of sorts. For my very creative writers, this was a killjoy from the get-go. I'm thinking that my more scientific, mechanical thinking child may derive some benefit from this approach so I'm saving the program...and also because it was so darn expensive and I'm not ready to say, "this doesn't work for us - I'm getting rid of it."
I wanted to put this perspective on this thread so that you know if you have a child who writes from and with a creative bent...a child for whom the process is sheer joy...or could be sheer joy...this program may not be a good fit. If you sense that your child would get lost in the formula of it all...keywords, lively words, don't use these words, do use at least 3 of these, etc...consider this program carefully in light of what I have revealed. If your child needs more structure, thrives on checklists and known expectations, would benefit from a formula approach to writing, this program may be a GREAT fit!
Having said all of that, both of my writers are loving Bravewriter. It is inspiring writing and it inspires me! It is a good writing program that addresses many things I was concerned about in a way that fosters and builds creativity while working within a very CM style. I like that Bravewriter is a way of life...and is integrated into the everyday - not another stand-alone subject. I like that it helps me assess where my children are writing, and helps me focus on unique skills to help them build their writing so that it becomes reflective, thought-provoking, and moves them into "The Great Conversation" all while stimulating their unique sense of creativity. And perhaps that is the key, if a program speaks to mom, if mom gets it, that enthusiasm is naturally communicated to the children.
Marilyn, try to borrow IEW and use it at home for a couple of weeks before you invest the $$. I can loan you mine to trial run...I'm not using it right now. 
Hope I didn't put the total kabosh on all the happy thoughts on IEW. I know so many here enjoy the program and I just thought I'd mention my (apparently unique  ) perspective.
...ducking out now...
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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MarilynW
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 10:01am | IP Logged
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Jen - no digital tomatoes from Virginia. That's one of the reasons I really love you - you always say what you think/believe!!
I will email you re possibly borrowing IEW - will email locally to see if anyone closer has it. My budget is looking very sad after I slot in IEW and TT.
Hijacking my own thread - I know you use Saxon - do you use the cds that go with it explaining things?
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Marilyn
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 10:10am | IP Logged
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MarilynW wrote:
| Hijacking my own thread - I know you use Saxon - do you use the cds that go with it explaining things? |
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Nope. But, I like math and see things very mathematically so I enjoy explaining concepts, and my dh is an engineer with a double major in math...so I'm covered.  If I were intimidated by more complicated math concepts and If I didn't have my guy backing me up I'd order the CD's!
And do let me know if you'd like to borrow IEW...it's clear I'm not using it right now and I'd be happy to send it up for an extended visit! You can use it for a few months and if it's working and fits your style and your kids, work it into your budget then and send it back to me. Might spare your current budget for a little while. 
Editing to say...that if I were intimidated by more complex math concepts and didn't have Rob at my back to help explain I wouldn't use Saxon at all...I'd use TT. Rob has evaluated both programs for me (TT and Saxon), and though Saxon isn't perfect by any means, he prefers it to TT. Since I was taught using Saxon all the way through pre-Cal, I am familiar with their approach and find it natural to teach from.
HTH...especially since I have now come out of the closet on Saxon and IEW!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Carole N.
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Jen, I am so glad that you mentioned about checklists and formulas because truly that is how this program is taught. I majored in English in college and when I took technical writing, that is what I learned to do. Write a definition paper, write a process paper, etc. It was all about taking information and putting it into the correct format.
And that could be part of the reason that this program appeals to me. My career as a publications person was to take massive amounts of information and put it into some sort of format that people who were using software would want to read, that is a user manual.
That being said, part of succeeding in college is being able to take a five paragraph essay and expand it into a term paper. Or to write a biographical essay. But if you are a creative writer, I think that you can learn that from any writing program.
I did look at Bravewriter and I have to admit that I was attracted to that as well. But I have not actually seen or held the book in my hands. I do know that there are several moms on the forum who use it and with great success.
I'm not trying to confuse you, Marilyn, but only you know what will work with your children. And definitely no digital tomatoes here either. I hate making choices and let's face it, I want to purchase them all!
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Carole ... in Wales
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Matilda
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Carole N. wrote:
| And definitely no digital tomatoes here either. I hate making choices and let's face it, I want to purchase them all! |
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Yes!!
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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Mary Chris
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 11:27am | IP Logged
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Marilyn,
I really like IEW. I really like that we have an awesome IEW instructor in the area.
A few things I learned over the weekend while working at an IEW booth.... If you buy an IEW product and you don't use it, send it back. Andrew has a 100% return policy..at anytime. I am thinking about sending back Phonetic Zoo, all of my children have cried when I have tried to do it with them. Andrew Pudewa would rather you return something and get your money back then be unhappy.
Also, the resale value of IEW is about 75%. Not bad on your investment.
You are able to make copies of the notebooks for your own family, so only buy one notebook.
If you can invest with a friend all the better. Or borrow what you can and buy just what you need.
Our instructor was tellling us she goes back and watches TWSS before she teached a unit, even though she has been doing this for seven years.
Also, Marilyn, if you have questions I really encourage you to contact the local gal, I think you know who I am talking about, she will make sure you buy the correct products for your children.
Feel free to email me with any questions.
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Blessings, Mary Chris Beardsley
mom to MacKenzie3/95, Carter 12/97 Ronan 3/00 and wife to Jim since 1/92
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Angel
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I decided to order IEW - mainly for my 12 yo ds who needs to have the writing process broken down for him. My 10 yo dd enjoys writing, writes in many different forms, and will occasionally even ask to do a book report. (!) My plan is to let her tag along with IEW, but not to force it. I'd rather have her enjoy writing at this stage in the game than know how to write a boilerplate essay. When she's a little older, she'll probably be able to learn to write essays by reading and analyzing essays... which is what I consider optimum, actually.
With my ds, however, I will be overjoyed with a boilerplate essay. Different kids, different approaches. I talked to my dh about IEW last night on the phone (he's in New Orleans, which makes it hard to have a decent conversation ), and he made me feel better about making a decision. (Any kind of decision. ) If IEW doesn't work, we'll return it. But my ds needs SOMETHING, because what we have been doing isn't working. If we start here, at least it will be making a start.
Which is not to say that I am recommending IEW -- having not tried it yet -- but I completely understand being unable to decide!! Good luck!
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Angela
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MarilynW
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| Posted: April 24 2009 at 12:38pm | IP Logged
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Part of the attraction of IEW for me is that I think it will improve my confidence in teaching my children and editing their work - I love writing, but sometimes worry about whether I am teaching them right, in terms of structure and style.
Re the Math question - I love Math and dh is involved with it too as he loves Math - the attraction of TT for me is that they can get on with things even if I am not there to explain a lesson - I am so struggling with getting going in the mornings right now (and have not had the baby yet) - and TT is so great at explaining lessons and solutions.
I think for next year with a newborn, toddler and K/1 - I have to make life easy but make sure bases are covered on Math and Writing/language
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Marilyn
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Natalia
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I wonder if there is a way to mesh IEW and Bravewriter. We use IEW because that is what Classical Conversations use. I like it. I like the objectivity of it and the way that it breaks down the process. BUT I think it doesn't have the appeal that Bravewriter does. Bravewriter, in my opinion, pays more attention to finding your writer's voice. I like Julie's emphasis on saturating yourself with the topic you are writing about so that you have actually something to write about. I love the exercises that are part of the Bravewriter program.
I have never tried to mesh both and I wonder if anybody has.
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Natalia
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Matilda
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Natalia wrote:
| I wonder if there is a way to mesh IEW and Bravewriter. |
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I was wondering the same thing and would be curious to hear from anyone who has attempted to do so even in a small way.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
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italianalaskan
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Natalia wrote:
| I wonder if there is a way to mesh IEW and Bravewriter. |
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I used IEW with 2 of my children, both of them hate it although it helped to improve their writing. My kids, just like me, hate having to do a map of what they will write. It doesn't allow them to be spontaneus and consequently their voice is not heard in their compositions.
But since I have started Bravewriter things have changed and they actually look forward to composition time!
Because I have IEW though I still have the kids check for the different "clause" that are requested by IEW like: who/which, because, prepositional opener and so on.
I actually think that the two programs work very well together because you can let your child go wild with their composition and add some of the components of IEW at editing time.
Simona
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LeeAnn
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We used Classical Writing Aesop A this year and put it aside after about three months. (Previously we used grammar/writing books from CHC or Hillside's PLL/ILL.)
I now have my 11yo on the "write me at least one page about anything you like" plan (borrowed from Robinson Curriculum) which she is enjoying. She occasionally writes two or more pages. I think I'm OK with not having any kind of formal writing program for a while. My kids like writing and I don't assign research papers or essays on particular topics as such.
One great benefit is that this method is very cheap!
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Erin
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Jennifer
Thank you so much for your input, actually you helped me decide it is what I am looking for although I realise it may not be the correct program for my ds it is what I am needing for dd.
Carole, Mary Chris, Lisa
Bumping up my question again to ask, do you think I should buy Combo C (urgent need is for dd15) or should I buy the TWSS and not worry about the SWIs? Hoping to cover as many children as possible though (ages 15, 14, 12, 9 and 7).
Angela
What did you order?
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Erin
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Angel
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I ordered the TWSS and SWI B. (I basically followed the recommendations on the site.) I'll have a 13 yo and a 10 yo using it (possibly), so I think B should work for both. I got a message that it's been shipped, so hopefully that means I'll get it early next week.
I wanted to wait on any other supplementals until I got a feel for whether the core program would work or not.
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Angela
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MarilynW
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My husband and I have been discussing and researching IEW together. I think we are both on board for trying it out. A friend gave me the Spring 2009 newsletter from IEW and there is an excellen article in there called "the question". You can view it here
He asks "When does the substance of students' writing gain more significance than whether or not they follow the models and complete the checklist? ...Aren't ideas going to be more important than the way in which they are formatted?. Ultimately, the answer may be yes, but with a caveat; the presentation always matters"
And then there is a quote which struck both dh and I
"A good idea poorly presented is not as powerful as a bad idea will presented - history proves this"
So important given the current administration and political situation
My children may have wonderful creative ideas - but they also need to present them effectively.
I am going to have to use this quote with those of my children who may (will?!) resist the idea of writing in a structured function.
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Marilyn
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MarilynW
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| Posted: April 25 2009 at 7:43am | IP Logged
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Mary Chris wrote:
Marilyn,
I really like IEW. I really like that we have an awesome IEW instructor in the area.
Also, Marilyn, if you have questions I really encourage you to contact the local gal, I think you know who I am talking about, she will make sure you buy the correct products for your children.
Feel free to email me with any questions.
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Mary Chris - please would you pm or email me the details for the local rep - my tired brain is not remembering.
I guess I want to discuss ahead with her - how to use for high school, record on a transcript etc.
Thanks!
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Marilyn
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Mary Chris
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| Posted: April 25 2009 at 8:15am | IP Logged
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Erin,
This is from the IEW catalog
"Each group (A, B, or C) presumes no previous experience; levels differ mainly in the type of source texts used, speed of presentation, and sophistication of vocabulary. Chose the level based on your child's age and maturity rather than writing ability, and if you wish to use the SWI with children of mixed ages, you can generally select B, "shooting for the middle."
Really it comes down to how comfortable you feel about teaching writing.
If you feel comfortable teaching writing, then just get the TWSS and a Theme Based Writing guide.
Buy the TWSS and SWI bundle and have Andrew Pudewa teach both you and your children.
Your age span could work with SWI C, I think your 12-15 year olds would be fine with it. There is also a high school bundle, College Bound Student Package. That bundle includes High School Essay Intensive, Advanced Communication Series, The Elegant Essay and the Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation.
Do you have a IEW Rep in your area? If not, I can ask my friend to help with your decision making. I am sure shipping to Down Under is not insignificant, so you really want to make the best choice.
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Blessings, Mary Chris Beardsley
mom to MacKenzie3/95, Carter 12/97 Ronan 3/00 and wife to Jim since 1/92
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Can we talk writing programs again?!!
