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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 11 2009 at 5:16pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
In all humility, I hope that I'm not paranoid. I do know that I've learned some lessons the hard way. Some things cannot be undone and some days cannot be re-lived. But I think we come from the experience a bit wiser. Of course, now I have a four year lag before my next 14-year-old boy. I can only imagine how technology will change by then  . |
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I don't think this is paranoid at all. Yes, we have to help our children to navigate the modern world safely. But we also have to be aware of our children's personalities and temperaments, as well as the amount of time we can honestly give to supervise.
And the thing is...sometimes "moments" happen that are not just sin, but have devastating consequences that can take months or even years to fix. A lifetime of drug addiction can happen with trying something "just once." There are dangers that Satan uses through computer social networking that have the power to really mess up a life. And I don't think we can be vigilant enough with tweens and young teens. Especially when we are busy mothers with lots of children to take care of simultaneously.
A child given license at 18 hopefully has at least a tiny bit more wisdom than a child given license at 14? If nothing else, an 18 yr old is either working or in college full time and has less free time to get into trouble. And an 18 yr old is not our responsibility in the same way a younger child is.
I don't consider myself an alarmist or conspiracy theorist by nature, but something about the technology available today really scares me. I considered becoming a saavy user of these tools as a protection for my children. I didn't go into it with any kind of biases, either. But I had no peace about it. Not right now, anyway. Maybe I'll regret it. I dunno.  Its all uncharted territory and there isn't a lot of hindsight to gain wisdom from.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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NathalieH
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| Posted: March 11 2009 at 5:21pm | IP Logged
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This topic is so very dear to my heart right now. I have a girl-12, boy-10, boy-8, girl-5. We are quickly racing towards those tween years. The techno thing is not an obsession in our family, but it is an ever present reality that I must figure out how to deal with.
I have already told my 12 y.o. that she is my first and we are making all our "mistakes" with her. She has been blessed and gifted with patience and much understanding from God. She heroically handles all our parenting "mistakes" with such grace. (WAY better than I did at her age!) I am working desperately hard at keeping the lines of communication open, clearly explaining the boundaries and trying to give and take with them.
We recently moved from CA to IL. I am allowing a very limited (meaning 7) amount of friends on FB so she can keep in touch with her old friends. It scares me to death and makes me sick to have her out in that "cyber world" so needless to say I monitor (b/c I only have 4 children and can do that) her account vigilantly. We do keep in touch with old friends via email and that is fine, too. FB, however, has an added dimension to it that makes it "fun" to keep in touch...I grudgingly admit that. So, that is my "give and take". I am trying very hard to be trusting. She has, in so many ways, earned this privilege.
SO, with all that said and realizing that the cyberworld has many blessings (this forum for starters!) but, also many dark places I find myself feeling totally helpless. I am continually recalling PJP II's call to "Be not afraid" but I AM! I am sure God's grace is sustaining me b/c if it was up to me- No internet. Period. I think of all the "what if's" that could occur. (I have that type A personality coming home to roost here) I am really trying to balance my "fears" with "being not afraid".
But, since I must "stay awake" and "keep up with the times" (Gosh, I do miss those Little House on the Prairie times- working as a family towards a common goal- Survival!) I have very humbly walked into the lion's den. Do you think there will be any angels there to help me?
I have no problem with being strict/"unpopular" and I ALWAYS see red flags (again, type A personality).
So, where is the balance? When I take a step forward (like the FB) thing is it o.k. to throw up and pass out? When will that stop? Because I need to be around for the other 3.
I know each family needs to decide for themselves. When my tweens were younger the lessons were not so costly. Now, I feel like these possible "life" lessons in cyberspace have the potential to really hurt or damage them.
Wow! It really is not easy being a parent, is it?
Thank you again for all your marvelous, courageous and inspiring words. You are helping to sustain me. I am doing alot of praying and will be reading those books recommended in the posts. I obviously will be having a fruitful Lent long after it is over. :-)
In His Love,
Nathalie H
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 11 2009 at 5:29pm | IP Logged
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Another book that might fit in here that I don't believe has been mentioned is
Noise: How Our Media-saturated Culture Dominates Lives and Dismantles Families by Teresa Tomeo
I've read it and it seems to me there was some very good points in it.. but it's been to long for me to say what they were without going and skimming the book to refresh my memory. 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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sewcrazy
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| Posted: March 12 2009 at 9:31pm | IP Logged
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stefoodie wrote:
And computer use, iPods, cell phones, etc. -- they don't have a RIGHT to those. Those are privileges -- gifts we CHOOSE to share with them. And yes, we can take them away if we see that they are being influenced negatively or if they have a bad effect on the family as a whole. We've also told the older ones -- sorry, but you're the guinea pigs here. We're also feeling our way through this and that means sometimes we'll make mistakes with our decisions and maybe have to backtrack on some of them -- but bottom line is we'll keep praying and trying to discern what's best; just trust that God always leads us to what's good for us. It's not easy being the older ones but hey, dem's da breaks. |
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We are similar in this. I have 2 teen boys that do have a lot of access to tech. But it is a privilege, not a right. My oldest learned this the hard way last fall when he abused the privilege. He then lost all access to tech for a month initially, and then for another week each time he complained. So it was over 9 weeks before he regained his Ipod, cell phone, and internet privileges.
My dh feels that the kids need to learn to navigate tech and manage it while still under our control. So each one has received access to most stuff at 13 with extremely close supervision. My 16yos' email "siggy" ends with "In my house there isn't even an illusion of privacy, so don't email me something you wouldn't want my mom to see because she probably will!" The 14 yos' comes to my desktop first. They know I will grab their phones and read through the text messages at will. I hold the passwords to all their accounts, with my email as the primary, and I will block them out if I see that they are spending too much time on-line.
I hope I am not a "control freak" I know some of my sons' friends have accused me of being one, but when I ask my sons they tell me that they still think I am "cool" and that they would rather know that I am still watching out for them than thinking I didn't care.
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LeeAnn
Wife of David, mom to Ben, Dennis, Alex, Laura, Philip and our little souls in heaven we have yet to meet
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Willa
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| Posted: March 12 2009 at 10:52pm | IP Logged
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sewcrazy wrote:
| I hope I am not a "control freak" I know some of my sons' friends have accused me of being one, but when I ask my sons they tell me that they still think I am "cool" and that they would rather know that I am still watching out for them than thinking I didn't care. |
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How do you explain it to them? My kids don't really question when I set limits, etc, but when I try to articulate why I do these things it is hard to avoid saying, "I don't trust you." In a way I DON'T of course and this is where it gets tricky -- I usually end up talking a bit vaguely about my responsibility as a mother to protect them and the dangers that are out there that make it necessary to supervise.
Does anyone have a good formulaic answer to build on or some analogy that they use to get this type of thing across to a young tween or teen?
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Carole N.
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| Posted: March 13 2009 at 3:22am | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
sewcrazy wrote:
| I hope I am not a "control freak" I know some of my sons' friends have accused me of being one, but when I ask my sons they tell me that they still think I am "cool" and that they would rather know that I am still watching out for them than thinking I didn't care. |
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How do you explain it to them? My kids don't really question when I set limits, etc, but when I try to articulate why I do these things it is hard to avoid saying, "I don't trust you." In a way I DON'T of course and this is where it gets tricky -- I usually end up talking a bit vaguely about my responsibility as a mother to protect them and the dangers that are out there that make it necessary to supervise.
Does anyone have a good formulaic answer to build on or some analogy that they use to get this type of thing across to a young tween or teen?
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I am interested in the answer to this question. My ds (who is 16) feels that I am extremely overprotective and that I will ruin his life in pretty much any area regarding technology. And he does know more than I do regarding computers and technology. But it could be just enough information to be dangerous if not monitored.
He does have a FB account. He set it up and I had no idea he had one. But the friends he has are his scout friends in the States and some other homeschool families. They are alll people that I know. He does not spend hours on FB. Most of his time is spent reading the news (he is a minature version of dh). And learning about cars.
When I mention getting an account, he says that I don't trust him. So what is the answer to that? I am not really certain that I want an account, but I do worry about what is out there in the great cyberworld that could negatively affect my ds.
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Carole ... in Wales
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sewcrazy
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| Posted: March 13 2009 at 6:05am | IP Logged
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I am not sure how I would explain it "cold" For us, it has been an evolving, ongoing conversation. Starting when my kids are little, I make it clear that they are too young too make some decisions without mom's help. I try to make sure they have choices that will appeal to them, but the final say is mine. When we let them get I-pods, cell phones and email accounts it was with the stipulation that I oversee all of it. I try to ignore the things that I simply don't like and just regulate that which I feel is dangerous.
One decision that I found I had to make, was that they didn't get their own computers. My dh wanted to get the older one a laptop for Christmas, but I convinced him that the risk was too great. They have accounts on mine, and yes at times it is a pain sharing, it would be way too hard to monitor their own computers. My computer it set up so that I get a list of the websites they visit each day, a transcript of their instant messaging, and access to their email accounts from my desktop. If I had to remember to check another computer, that they could "wipe", it would be too hard for me to keep tabs on them. Also the entire laptop is password protected, so I can shut it down and know that is truly shut down.
I don't ride the boys. But we have an ongoing "joke" that testosterone runs much faster than brain cells and that it is my job to keep them safe until the brain cells can win again  They know that it is not about "trust" it is about their difficulty, at this age, to make prudent choices. We make jokes about it, but the reality is that few teenagers are equipped to make decisions about their long-term safety. Their brains are just not wired for it. I have made sure that they understand that fact.
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LeeAnn
Wife of David, mom to Ben, Dennis, Alex, Laura, Philip and our little souls in heaven we have yet to meet
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stefoodie
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| Posted: March 13 2009 at 4:51pm | IP Logged
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I've only got a few more minutes before we need to turn in (moving-in day tomorrow to the condo!!). So might not have time to edit this/think more deeply on it right now.
Willa wrote:
| why I do these things it is hard to avoid saying, "I don't trust you." |
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I don't think it's necessarily true that we don't trust our kids. We trust them to the extent that we've taught them and their maturity level of which we are the best judge, based on what we observe on a daily basis. Trust is something that has to be earned. Just like when they were children they learned to trust us that we would provide food, shelter, clothing etc. by observing us do that, we learn to trust our kids by watching them mature, grow, interact, discern, make decisions, etc. More right choices = more trust; more trust = more privileges; more privileges = more responsibility. We watch for instances of self-mastery and reward accordingly.
What's more important I think is to emphasize that no matter how much we trust each other, the evil one and the secular world cannot and should not be underestimated. We *always* have to have our guard up -- doesn't mean we should be paranoid, but that the evil one is just *that* insidious and will take advantage if we are not careful to watch for slip-ups. Fact is the world we/they live in today is VERY different from the world we lived in 20, 30 years ago.
We also tell them that yes, a lot of our guardedness comes from us making our own mistakes as young people. It's just the way it is. Since they are not going to be mistake-free all their life, it's also THEIR experiences -- good and bad -- that will help them one day as parents. We all just do the best we can with what we have.
It is our responsibility to train them and help them get to heaven. We are accountable to God and we take that accountability very seriously. While they are under our care we will do EVERYTHING it takes to do a good job, even if it means people see us as weird or different. We would really rather err on the side of caution than take those risks. And no, we still won't catch everything, but they stand a better chance of becoming well-adjusted adults who know how to navigate the world with a Catholic perspective, and without the confusion (or at least, less) than that which afflicts most people, even Catholics, nowadays.
Here's the bottom line we always use: you know that I love you. And you believe me when I tell you I won't ever lie to you, I won't purposely lead you astray, I won't tell you to do anything that will hurt you. I'll make mistakes because I'm not a perfect parent, but I promise to always pray and always try to do God's will, and right now I believe firmly that this is what I'm being called to do. You may not like it, but you'll just have to trust me on this. If you don't agree with me, let's both pray about it and talk about it again (tomorrow, next week, etc.).
Don't know if that answers the question, but I hth.
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stef
mom to five
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Willa
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| Posted: March 13 2009 at 9:21pm | IP Logged
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Thank you, Stef and LeeAnn. It's true that it doesn't mean lack of trust to guard each other. My husband and I guard each other too, but in a different way.
Sort of silly, but in the line of what LeeAnn said about starting the conversation when children are very young, I just happen to be reading the Thornton Burgess animal books to my 6 year old. A quote from today's reading from Lightfoot the Deer:
Quote:
| Presently they made out what looked like the branch of a tree moving over the water towards them. That was queer, very queer. Mr. Quack said so. Mrs. Quack said so. Both were growing more and more suspicious. They couldn't understand it at all, and it is always best to be suspicious of things you cannot understand. |
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Burgess makes the point in his other tales, too -- that the animals are wise to be a bit skittish about new things, because they really don't know what possibility of harm there might be. They are curious, too, so it's a balance. It reminds me of the balance between incorporating new things and being a bit careful with them.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: March 14 2009 at 6:29am | IP Logged
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sewcrazy wrote:
I don't ride the boys. But we have an ongoing "joke" that testosterone runs much faster than brain cells and that it is my job to keep them safe until the brain cells can win again They know that it is not about "trust" it is about their difficulty, at this age, to make prudent choices. We make jokes about it, but the reality is that few teenagers are equipped to make decisions about their long-term safety. Their brains are just not wired for it. I have made sure that they understand that fact.
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 thanks for articulating this.I don't think I'm a control freak. If anything, I think I trust too easily--pretty much in every relationship. With the boys, I probably didn't acknowledge the gender difference as soon as someone who had brothers might have. I had no idea how much faster testosterone runs than brain cells. I'm on my third teenaged boy now, and I think I'm getting it . I also think this is a question of safety. They tend to be foolhardy. When I said that you can't put water back under the bridge, I meant that some things, once done, can't be undone. We can be forgiven, but that doesn't "undo" it. I've said things online that regretted later. And I've read things about myself that still bring tears to my eyes at the memory. I'd like to protect my children as much as possible from those experiences. And, frankly, if they see porn, whether by looking for it or having it dumped onto their screens unwittingly, you can't take the images out of their brains.
Now, without offering a sweeping generalization, because I'm sure this isn't entirely a gender issue, I walked into the schoolroom a couple of days ago to see my 12yo daughter arranging workboxes for the little kids. She had read about it here, right after she commented on Kristen's blog about the Easter dresses she was sketching. On the screen on the schoolroom computer, she had mapped out two months worth of science units for the littles. She had book links and printable pages and montessori activities. And she wasn't finished! This is how she *chooses* to spend her time on the computer (when she's not writing on one of a dozen homeschool girl blogs).I think that with her, my caution will be much more about time management and relationship mistakes and much less about pushing the limits of fast-paced technology to expand social boundaries.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Lara Sauer
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| Posted: March 14 2009 at 9:18am | IP Logged
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As I read these postings, a thought that comes to my mind is this: Are we motivated to protect our children out of love or out of fear?
It seems clear to me that if we are motivated by love, and that motivation comes through in our actions towards our cildren and in our words to them, they will (usually) respond in kind. (Sadly there are some hardened hearts out there.)
However, if we are motivated by fear, our children will sense that, too. And our boys and young men, who are filled with much bravado and little wisdom, may venture forward to show us there is "nothing" to fear...to our sorrow and potentially, to their shame.
The "world" will NEVER support us in our attempts to protect our children. That is why it is so important that we find communities like this one.
"Be not afraid...I go before you always. Come follow me, and I will give you rest," says the Lord.
May Our Lord in His wisdom and grace, bless each of you in your attempt to raise up saints for His Kingdom.
Christ's peace.
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You can take the girl out of Wisconsin, but you can't take the Wisconsin out of the girl!
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Lara Sauer
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| Posted: March 14 2009 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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One more thought...sorry for not thinking of this sooner...
For those whose children have been hurt, I love to meditate on the words of our Lord in Revelation:
"Behold, I make ALL things NEW!"
He is the Divine Physician and can heal even the deepest wound.
Peace.
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You can take the girl out of Wisconsin, but you can't take the Wisconsin out of the girl!
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JennGM
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Elizabeth, that is so neat about your daughter. That is such a key gender difference I was thinking. That's the reasons I use the computer, but I've been wondering how to show my son the difference.
Pardon me if this has been said before. I'm having brain retention problems lately. As regards to the trust issue, is there some way to explain to your children how it's about levels of growing up? Infants wouldn't be thrown into a bathtub alone, or given a bowl of food, or dress themselves, etc. Nor do as they grow older do they learn to read all alone, or naturally know to beware of strangers or crossing the street, etc.
While a teenager might have a body that looks grown up, there are still some things that need guidance and teaching, and prudence and maturity from the parents first until they can learn these on their own. We're not birds that just push the babies out of the nests to see if they fly.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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sewcrazy
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JennGM wrote:
| Pardon me if this has been said before. I'm having brain retention problems lately. As regards to the trust issue, is there some way to explain to your children how it's about levels of growing up? Infants wouldn't be thrown into a bathtub alone, or given a bowl of food, or dress themselves, etc. Nor do as they grow older do they learn to read all alone, or naturally know to beware of strangers or crossing the street, etc. |
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My 14 yos and I had a conversation along these lines today. We were discussing my need to evaluate the music he puts on his Ipod. I pointed out that it was no different than not allowing him to see whatever movie that he wants. The PG 13 or R rating (heck even PG) means it is my JOB to check it out before I allow my kids to watch it. I would be irresponsible to allow the 9 yod to watch a PG 13 movies without knowing why it recieved that rating. Also, I reminded him that I evalute new authors they find at the library.
I pointed out the degrees of control I have as they get older (and more responsible?) The 4 year old doesn't watch, read, or listen to anything I haven't vetted first. For the 9 yod, I have to be familiar with the author/artist and the work before she is allowed to have it, for the teenagers, I need a familiarity with artist or author, but necessarily the exact work they have. I hope by the time they are teenagers, I have showed them what is worthwile (or at least not trash  )
I have stressed to the kids that it is my JOB from God to protect them and raise them on the right path. And that I will keep them safe as long as it is my power to do so! It is not that I don't trust them, it is the rest of the world I do not trust.
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LeeAnn
Wife of David, mom to Ben, Dennis, Alex, Laura, Philip and our little souls in heaven we have yet to meet
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BrendaPeter
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Read this recently in the National Catholic Register & it reminded me of this thread:
The Cell Sell
Family Matters
BY Dr. Ray Guarendi
March 15-21, 2009 Issue | Posted 3/6/09 at 2:57 PM
My 15-year-old daughter’s friends all seem to have cell phones. She’s pushing hard, and her father sees nothing wrong with giving her one. Just my hang-up?
Hello? Here’s a scary statistic. A recent survey said 75% of kids between the ages 14 and 17 have cell phones. The rest live in the Himalayas. Not really. The survey is of American teens.
Why am I scared by this? Because of worries about brain damage caused by cell phones? Hardly. Because of talking while driving? Somewhat. Because of overblown bills? Sort of. My biggest fear? Cell phones open up to kids a whole new peer world that parents have a cell of a time monitoring.
Cell phones are wondrous pieces of technology. They have become nearly everyone’s miniature companions. Even my 80-year-old mother, long among inveterate cell-resisting adults, can’t imagine leaving the house without her ever-present link to everybody. The problem is not the technology itself, although it has dramatically changed our social landscape — some would argue for the better, some for the worse. (Does anybody talk to anyone in person uninterrupted anymore?)
The problem comes when technology interacts with age — not my mother’s, but with youth. Cell phones enable and encourage kids to reach out and touch someone, anyone, lots of anyones, some good to contact, some bad. It’s real hard for a parent to know whom Belle is talking with about what, when, where and how much. Cell phones open up a much wider social world, a world that a parent can’t oversee remotely as well as she can a youngster’s face-to-face interactions.
Most kids don’t use a cell to break the law, buy marijuana or cheat on tests. The negatives of phone use are more subtle and insidious. They involve the most everyday communications between kids.
Teens have lots of immature ideas about what is socially cool, what is romantic, what is desirable, what is permitted, what can be gotten away with. Teens can also be pretty sheep-like. They are prone to the influence of the flock’s ideas and behaviors. Part of growing up morally means not getting too enamored with popular peer group notions about life. This means parents have to keep a close ear on what things their kids are hearing, liking and considering. Cell phones are the perfect medium for teens to exchange all kinds of peer talk — some good, some bad, all private.
“But Dr. Ray, I want to know where my son is.” Certainly. But how do you know for sure? Do you have the ability to trace the location of the call? Cells don’t come with GPS homing devices — yet. Locations are far easier to confirm with a landline.
“It’s so much more convenient. They can call me when I need to pick them up.” Okay; purchase a phone with a 10-minute monthly limit. Or get one that can only receive or call pre-programmed numbers. They have them now, even in the Himalayas.
“It’s for safety purposes.” Again, refer to the above response. Or give the phone to Alexander only when he leaves the house for particular activities or reasons. Look over each monthly call list. There should be no unexplained calls. If so, consider disconnecting — for a time or indefinitely. Your call.
I am not a back-to-nature psychologist. I am not recommending no cell technology whatsoever. Sadly, I spend a lot more time on mine than I’d prefer. But I am strongly advising that you resist the cultural flow on this decision. The statistic that 75% of kids above 14 have a cell makes the reality neither good nor socially healthy. Some day your daughter will have her own cell phone. That day should not be when 92% of her friends have one but when you will have judged her mature enough to use the cell phone wisely. Maybe when she’s married.
One final call. Ask your daughter, “Why do you want a cell phone so much?” Savvy kids will initially cite the above reasons that most parents cite. They know what they’re supposed to say. Give your daughter the responses I gave you. Then wait to see what other arguments she makes. You might just hear some things that will confirm your impulse to hold the line. Get your husband to listen to this interchange. Call him on his cell if you have to.
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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Brenda, this is excellent. Thanks for sharing.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Teens and Technology
