| Author | |
Tina P.
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1638
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2005 at 2:51am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Many Protestants, as I understand it, don't believe in the saints. Or, at the very least, they see what we do as worshipping the saints (and Mary) and think that is sinning because we should only worship Jesus, the Son of God. We can explain 'til we're blue in the face that we do not WORSHIP saints, we ask for their intercession, but they just don't seem to catch on.
We have friends who do not celebrate Easter ("Well, there's no Biblical account of a celebration of Easter, is there?" they say) and will not be receiving gifts for Christmas. My kids are sad for them. I wonder whether the children eventually will rebel and when they're young adults go overboard in their attempts to be the opposite of what their parents wanted them to be. 
We do the same as many of you. I love the wonderful way you practice your faith and seamlessly fit the two worlds together. I especially like your idea, Rachel, about St. Nick not driving a sleigh and that many different people make up stories about him. But St. Nick, according to many stories, *did* drop coin sacks down a chimney. 
God bless,
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: Dec 08 2005 at 3:09am | IP Logged
|
|
|
We have never committed as parents one way or the other - like another mom, when dc asks ? with twinkle in our eye we ask them what they think. We might say something like all good gifts ultimately come from Christ. We try to emphasize preparation for Christ - straw in the manger and always have a special procession with our baby Jesus to put in the manger filled with our straw. It is the priviledge of the youngest dc to carry baby Jesus (a very special one) in while we all sing Joy to the World. There are a few Nativity scenes (the outside one always somehow has Baby Jesus in it when we arrive home from midnight Mass)but any dc that really want something to carry on Christmas morning can carry the small baby Jesus for the two inside Nativities.
We try to make sure that Christmas morning the first thing we do(after processing downstairs) is a reading on the narrative of Christ's birth and then talk in wonder about how much Jesus loves us that his love even spills over into gifts for us (after all that is what the gift giving is all about - no matter who they think gives them the gifts) even though it is the celebration of his birth. Then we hope to lead into how much we would want to love Him in return by giving of ourselves to Him in all that we do.
The gifts under the tree have always been wrapped and labeled as to recepient but our gifts are unlabeled so the dc can think whatever they want. We hang our stockings on the Feast of St. Nick (or the Eve) but we have not been great about really celebrating his feast day. However, the dc started hiding their gifts for one another in those stockings - typically special handmade items from their own creativity appear in the stockings on Christmas Eve between Midnight Mass and bedtime.
This year our oldest dc have been trying to convince our 3 yo of Santa Claus - but they play with him so much about all kinds of things that it is uncertain what he really thinks and, as parents, we stay quite mute on the subject. Our dc were typically scared of the Mall Santas and our 3 yo thought the Easter Bunny and Santa were bad guys for a while because he was afraid of anything in costume (from the mascot of the baseball team to the Barnhill that came to restaurants, etc. and these two folks seemed like more of the same. But after watching Polar Express, he has decided that these are good guys now, although at one point he said it was a movie and not real - then his 18 yo sister laughingly tried to convince him differently. He didn't ask me and I didn't volunteer any information.
We've watched the CCC video with dc and spoken of St Nicholas as a real person and his association with Santa Claus without being explicit about any connection to gift giving.
We do not have any presents under the tree during Advent - they appear late at night on Christmas Eve. The dc even will sneak their presents for us down after Midnight Mass and generally tell us where their presents for each other are hidden and ask us to deposit them for them. Our tree is gradually transformed from a bare tree to a Christmas tree over the course of Advent (Jesse ornaments added a few at a time during Advent and then the special shiny balls and any ornaments with the Christ child on them are put on the tree on Christmas Eve. Our tree is up through Epiphany and the Christ child is out for our meditation until after the Feast of the Presentation.
We are looking for better ways to extend the celebration and know many families have some exchange of gifts on this day (we intended to but always couldn't remember which wrapped presents were for which day so they all ended up under the tree on Christmas morning. We try to have a house blessing (dad leading with blessed chalk and holy water on Epiphany).
I really do think that each family's celebration is so individual and it doesn't much matter whether there is or isn't a Santa/St. Nicholas as long as we keep our focus where it should be.
Growing up we had Santa come to our door (a neighbor dressed to the part)but what created the most wonder for me was the Nativity set and Christmas Carols. My mom set up the Nativity all at once - I kept moving the figures and rearranging them (putting the kings across the room, etc.) I try to do this now - (I had the kings and baby Jesus until Christmas - then Jesus is in the manger and the kings are a long ways off and travel a little closer each day). It's funny now - because the dc all rearrange how I set it up but we do re-enact the Nativity and the visit of the Wise Men with our set which is unbreakable.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Dec 08 2005 at 11:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
I really do think that each family's celebration is so individual and it doesn't much matter whether there is or isn't a Santa/St. Nicholas as long as we keep our focus where it should be.
|
|
|
That's what I think, too. I come from a Protestant home where Santa was not brought into Christmas at all. We sang carols, did the Advent calendar, baked cookies etc. DH likes to play up the Santa part. One year he left a footprint on our hearth and he always has the kids leave out the milk and cookies so he can eat them 
The focus is the key. Santa shouldn't be an excuse for materialism and self-gratification. We have a statuette of Santa Claus/Saint Nicolaus kneeling before the Infant in the manger and that's pretty much a symbol reminding me of how it should be.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 08 2005 at 11:50am | IP Logged
|
|
|
In our house, we don't perpetuate the myth but we do indulge the child who wants to live the fantasy. For instance, if I have a little boy who wants to dress like Peter Pan every day for a year, I make the costume and regularly replenish the green tights. I don't remind that little boy every morning that there's no such thing as Peter Pan. [As an aside, the little boy is six feet tall now, no longer wears tights, and fondly remember WHY he didn't want to grow up.] If I have a little boy who wants to pretend a man who bears a striking resemblance to St. Nicholas is going to visit with eight flying reindeer, I remind him once or twice how the myth evolved, I buy him a statue like the one Willa mentioned above, and then I let him pretend. I might even read "Twas the Night Before Christmas" every time he asks. Perpetuating the myth or stoking the fires of imagination? I think it's all in the presentation. We are careful never to lie--I don't want to have to "come clean" one day and have them wonder about other stories we've told. "A baby who was really God born in a manger and a star that lit the world?" Is this true or not? Santa Claus is a fairy tale, with roots in reality. We can teach that all along and have our cookies and eat them too  .
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Tina P.
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1638
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2005 at 6:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hmmm...how far should one go in letting a child pretend? My Zachary thinks that his Kermit the Frog is real to the point of carrying him around, having him eat beside him (complete with plate and slice of pizza) and dressing him to go outside with boots, coat, hat, and mittens. Not that there's anything under the coat!  I did not understand this the other day as we were going to an outdoor place and I completely infuriated him. I just insisted that good old Kermit not wear child sized boots. Zach insisted that the boots were too small for him. We reminded him that there are three children younger than him who can use the boots. He was not a happy camper. In a huff he left Kermit home. Then after the door was locked and we were around the bend, he was sad that he left his good buddy home.
So I ask again...where does the fantasy end?
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2005 at 7:24pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I posted this on CCM last year when I had WAY more time to write! I crack myself up...why do I take pages to write what Leonie can summarize in a few well-chosen sentences, LOL?...
Here are my top ten reasons for why our family includes Santa in our
preparation for Christmas:
1. Santa connects us with our extended family and community and
allows us to be missionaries they can relate to. In so many ways
our family does not participate in *regular* life. This is one way
that we connect in a joyful, loving, way.
Ex: Cousins are talking about Santa. One cousin says, "Christmas
is great because it is Santa's birthday." My child replies, "Oh no,
Christmas is Jesus' birthday. Santa gives gifts to honor Jesus and
that's why we give gifts too."
2. Santa connects our children to our past. Santa was a big deal
for me and my husband as children. We both had difficult childhoods
that did not include traditional Catholic advent preparations, yet
Santa came through for us every year. Once we realized "the truth"
we were even more impressed with the efforts of our families.
Ex: Ds said, "Mom and Dad, it's nice to hear you talk about your
happy Christmas memories."
3. Santa helps parents to practice and be an example of Matthew 6:1-
4...But take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that
people may see them...and your Father who sees in secret will repay
you.
Ex: DD said, "Mom, I can't believe that you and Dad were Santa!
You gave us stuff that I was SURE you wouldn't...like candy and gum!"
4. Santa reminds us of wonderful qualities that are true,
honorable, just... in Christ and in those who are trying to be
Christ-like. (Philippians 4:8)
5. Santa points us to Christ. Ornaments like this one share this
message, http://www.santaclaushouse.com/kneeling.html (I don't have
this particular ornament and haven't read the book...anyone else?)
6. Santa encourages innocence and child-like joy. Our children
enjoy Santa for many years and gradually move into a more "mature"
role, helping to be Santa for younger siblings.
7. Santa enhances, and does not distract from, the birth of
Christ. Santa increases the joy of anticipation in a very concrete
way.
8. Santa was inspired by St. Nicholas. St. Nicholas is a member of
the communion of saints. We can all inspire each other.
Ex: "Mom, Santa doesn't look like St. Nicholas." "Santa as we know
him today was inspired by St. Nicholas. Isn't it amazing that so
many have been inspired by St. Nicholas and all the saints!"
9. Santa is an example of generosity and limits. Santa answers his
calling but can not exceed it. Just like us, we can help others in
unique and little ways. Santa is not God and can not change a
family's life circumstances, but he (just like we) can bring joy to
lives through a generous act. He is also respectful of family
values and traditions, which explains why he doesn't go to our
Jewish and some secular friends' homes.
Ex: "Mom, why doesn't Santa help bring the true meaning of
Christmas to X's home?" "God brings Christ to different people at
different times in different ways. That is why we each need to be
ready to be a vessel for Christ's love."
10. Santa is ours, as we order and place him in our family life.
Because we are grounded in our faith and Advent involves many
different ways of preparing for Christmas (Advent calendar, wreath,
bible readings, special projects such as *Names of Jesus,*
celebrating saints days especially St. Nicholas, service work, etc.)
Santa rightly takes his somewhat small but important and unique place
(gives one or two gifts plus surprise stocking stuffers.) I refuse
to let our secular world have the last word on Santa!
Is Santa necessary to prepare for Christmas? No. Can Santa, when
placed in perspective and lovingly connected bring joy and good?
For our family the answer is yes.
God bless,
Angie Mc in AZ
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2005 at 7:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, Angie -- I love this -- what a great way of looking at it. And I think you're words are all well chosen and direct.
These are the reasons my parents never let Santa die in our house -- even as we got older and "knew", no one ever came right out with "he's not real" because the beauty and magic of the season that can help "bring joy and good" to the Season IS real! Not one of us 7 children ever had the rude awakening of being told differently -- we all matured into the "knowing" when we were each ready for it. So it was never a traumatic, "you lied to us" event....we were in awe of all that my parents and others did to keep the idea alive.
Thanks Angie for saying what I've been trying to articulate!
Blessings!
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2005 at 10:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Angie, I loved you writing! A great explanation.
BTW, my writing is only short because I seem to have little time to write at the computer! 
Tina, I tend to just go with the flow of the fantasy. I let it take its natural course and I enjoy the moments - believe when I tell you, they *do outgrow it!
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 5:29am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Tina P. wrote:
| My Zachary thinks that his Kermit the Frog is real to the point of carrying him around, having him eat beside him (complete with plate and slice of pizza) and dressing him to go outside with boots, coat, hat, and mittens. |
|
|
Tina,
My Stephen, who is Zachary's age, decided three or four years ago that he was Superman. He insisted we all call him Superman. Furthermore, he called me "SUpermom" and he called his father "Batman" (except he didn't quite have his "Bs" yet and so poor Mike was "Fatman" ). We played along. We made sure he understood that he couldn't fly but other than that, we went ahead and called him Superman. And we still do...
Mike took him to his last soccer match this fall. He had missed all the games due to travel. As Mike watched, he heard one teammate after another call to "Super" to pass the ball! Mike wasn't even sure that they know his name is Stephen .
He won't always pretend he's Superman. We're actually seeing signs of it waning already. But I have a hunch he'll always be "Super."
One day, Zach will be annoyed that he has to carry Kermit everywhere (please God, just don't let him lose it or leave it behind somewhere ). But you know what? There will always bea a special place in your heart for Kermit the Frog!
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rachel May
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 2:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth,
You are bringing back great memories for me. My little brother was superman for years also. He went to Kindergarten as Anthony Baer, but at snack time he changed into his superman underoos enhanced by someone's old blue dance tights, the family pair of red galoshes, and a cape regularly replaced by my mom. He also had a Super Grover who went everywhere also outfitted by mom. She loves to tell the story of the day she picked up Anthony and then they went to catch the bus to pick up our ever unfaithful VW bus from the repairshop. The lady at the busstop asked, "Was today a special day at school?" My mom's response was, "Every day is a special day for my son."
I've always wondered if all that dressing up and belief in super powers didn't help foster his vocation. At 18 he joined a Norbertine monastery where after a year he was given a new identity, Chrysostom, and vested with the Norbertine habit, complete with a cape! And his ordination has certainly conferred him with "superpowers." I try to keep that in mind as the twins do similar things.....
__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 2:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| I think it's all in the presentation. We are careful never to lie--I don't want to have to "come clean" one day and have them wonder about other stories we've told. "A baby who was really God born in a manger and a star that lit the world?" Is this true or not? Santa Claus is a fairy tale, with roots in reality. We can teach that all along and have our cookies and eat them too . |
|
|
My mother didn't "do" Santa in our house for the very reason of her own reaction when she heard the news that Santa wasn't for real. She was devastated, but also felt like her parents "lied" to her. Her personality is to uphold truth, so she really couldn't believe that she had been deceived by her own parents.
Perhaps an extreme reaction, but nevertheless....
My youngest brother wanted to believe in something like Santa Claus, so would play up the St. Nicholas role. My mother thought that was fine, doing the same as you describe. Just be careful in presentation....
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I love the thoughts on this from everyone!
In the idea of lying, my husband and I were discussing this recently because my ds9 is at that age when he's concerned what are lies and what are not. If you intentionally deceive someone, knowing that the deception is intended to be found out and is for the benefit of goodness then, is it a lie? Let me give you an example. A surprise party: 1-you usually have to tell some type of falsehood to get it to come across 2-you know they will find out that you told this and 3-it was for the benefit of sucessfully carrying out the party (good). While we don't claim to be theologians or philosophers, we've come to the conclusion that a lie is something that you intend the person to never know and usually doesn't end in good. So I hope I'm not being presumptuous in saying that this St. Nick thing is in the same ballpark 1-we know they'll find out 2-it was for fun. When I finally found out I had a deep understanding that my parents did it for fun, not to make me suffer. Perhaps it helped that it wasn't overdone. I slowly put 2+2 together at an appropriate age because they didn't bend overbackwards to keep it a secret. Although, it was a subject we didn't discuss.
If my children asked why I "lied" to them, I'm going to remember this surprise party analogy and explain it to them.
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Tina P.
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1638
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 5:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth and Rachel May: *I* had a Superman brother, too! His only problem was that he went too far. He jumped off the neighbor's porch and broke his arm. He had amblyopia at the time. Just imagine what he looked like with a cast up to his armpit and a patch over one eye. One time in a store he annoyed my dad so much that dad said, "If you keep that up, I'll poke the other eye out!" This was before the abuse red flags went up, but some eyebrows were raised at that comment.
Sarah, I like your surprise party analogy. I have a son (the one whom I understand the least) who just plumb does not like surprises. If we're going somewhere, he *has* to know where before he can be happy about going. He's also our Knight. He constantly runs around weilding an imaginary sword (sometimes a broomstick, sometimes just air). This kid is 11 years old. Leonie, WHEN DO THEY GROW OUT OF IT? I'm only kidding really. I like to see imaginative play in my children. It just seems like most of my kids can separate play and real life. He just doesn't seem to be able to do it. Even when everyone's lolling around the living room listening to a story, any story, he has to be up and fighting some imaginary foe. Ought I to do anything to dampen that enthusiasm? Or should I, after just having finished Ancient Egypt (well, almost), just delve into the Middle Ages with history and let interests rule in how we go about tackling history?
Weren't we just in Fantasyland a few seconds ago? Sorry for the unusual twist...
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Perpetuation of the SANTA myth
