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Angie Mc
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sarahb wrote:
How do you reconcile your respect for clergy with the criticism of their parish practices?
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By separating the people from the practice and by following proper channels with our concerns.
sarahb wrote:
| Some of the objections I see online most often arent liturgical abuse. Its just a matter of taste. I think there exists, online mostly, on catholic forrums, an attitude of pridefulness wrt "doing it right" or "better" somehow. |
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I think what you are getting at is exactly the challenge we're discussing. You are describing the hurt/discomfort of being on the receiving end of a heavy focus on "the practice," one that completely disregards the humanity of the people involved. There is always the temptation to focus on "the practice" to the exclusion of being gentle with "the people." Yet the other side of the challenge is that there is always the temptation to focus on "the people" (feelings, tastes, opinions) that we miss the mark on "the practice." This leaning can be just as narrow, assuming, hurtful, and prideful.
I'm repeating myself here, but it is TRUE that it is incredibly hard to do both, care about the people and the practices, at the same time and with consistency. Those who do are called, saints. Most of us are saints in the making - not quite there.
For the purposes of this discussion board, lean toward gentleness with all people involved, please  .
Love,
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sarahb
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ladybugs wrote:
Lisbet wrote:
Quote:
but we minimize the actions of the church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ?
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You have GOT to be kidding me???????? |
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You certainly imply alot when you make this comment, Sarah - and it's out of line.
How do you know that I haven't been a victim of such abuse but can still manage to recognize the honor of the position? |
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Im not sure what you mean by saying I implied something out of line. I used the word WE for a reason. We are all part of the Body of Christ- this is a catholic issue and it looms large in many diocese. I didnt mean to put people on the defensive by bringing this up, but the response is so defensive and angry... as if I had brought up a topic which shouldnt be broached? I felt it was very relevant indeed to the quote offered earlier in the thread.
I can and do recogise the honor of the position of the clergy. Im very lucky to have 2 wonderful priests serving my congregation.
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sarahb
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Angie Mc wrote:
I think what you are getting at is exactly the challenge we're discussing. You are describing the hurt/discomfort of being on the receiving end of a heavy focus on "the practice," one that completely disregards the humanity of the people involved. There is always the temptation to focus on "the practice" to the exclusion of being gentle with "the people." Yet the other side of the challenge is that there is always the temptation to focus on "the people" (feelings, tastes, opinions) that we miss the mark on "the practice." This leaning can be just as narrow, assuming, hurtful, and prideful.
I'm repeating myself here, but it is TRUE that it is incredibly hard to do both, care about the people and the practices, at the same time and with consistency. Those who do are called, saints. Most of us are saints in the making - not quite there.
Love, |
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That was quite well put.
I guess what I see online is more the former and perhaps IRL what we all see may stray towards the latter.
I suppose I have been quite lucky to find my parishes (in 3 different states) to be well within the church norms and without the liturgical abuses described by many. Still, I have been told online that my parish was "run like a 3 ring circus" or that my church by offering a Lifeteen mass is less catholic...This is really not any more ok than the sort of wishy washy 70s style feel good catholicism we all wish to rise above.
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CrunchyMom
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sarahb wrote:
| Some of the objections I see online most often arent liturgical abuse. Its just a matter of taste. I think there exists, online mostly, on catholic forrums, an attitude of pridefulness wrt "doing it right" or "better" somehow. |
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Perhaps, but the examples you specifically cited were not a matter of taste. So, do you still think that someone critical of the use of a glass goblet is pridefully sitting in judgment? Attitudes of pridefulness are hurtful and annoying both in real life and online, but I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt regarding tone online since I know people have misinterpreted my own at times.
I guess what confuses me about your comments is that they seem to imply that having a discussion about these things, be they abuses or preferences, automatically equals judgment of the sinful sort rather than a person making a prudential judgment that something is, in fact, better according to their discernment.
Some art is objectively better than other art. Matters of taste and preference, while subjective, have objective qualities. For instance, I could probably list pieces of music that I don't care for that I would concede are completely appropriate for use in Church.
It is certainly legitimate to hold the belief that certain things allowed should never have been or that things not specifically prohibited are in fact bad. Saying in conversation, "I think that Fr. So-and-so's decision to move the tabernacle to the back of Church was regrettable because of such -and-such" is different from saying, "Can you believe that Fr. So-and-so? What a liberal nutjob he must be to have made a stupid decision like moving the tabernacle..." One is charitably disagreeing with a priest and the other is insulting him.
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CrunchyMom
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sarahb wrote:
I suppose I have been quite lucky to find my parishes (in 3 different states) to be well within the church norms and without the liturgical abuses described by many. Still, I have been told online that my parish was "run like a 3 ring circus" or that my church by offering a Lifeteen mass is less catholic...This is really not any more ok than the sort of wishy washy 70s style feel good catholicism we all wish to rise above
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So why is someone not allowed to think that Lifeteen masses are an inferior liturgy and perhaps, at least in the tradition of the Church, "less Catholic" as long as they do so with respect to the individuals involved?
I'm sure you have seen hurtful comments regarding it (just as Catholics attending more traditional liturgies have been the object of snide remarks as well), but that doesn't make the position or the person holding this opinion more judgmental simply for expressing their opinion. It is the lack of charity in expression that is wrong, not the position itself.
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ladybugs
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It's because of the word, "We," and the idea that you include me in your statement that "We minimze the actions of the Church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ."
I certainly do not do this and that is where the implication occurred.
In so far as being defensive, the original post was not about the sex-abuse scandal. It was about how we treat priests in regards to the thinking of those who do not appear to believe that the NO is valid, if I'm not mistaken.
I know that I am tired of our priests getting a bad wrap - so if I'm defensive, it's because there's been a lot of priests suffering because of the few and I wanted to defend them. I'm sure they're weary by association.
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sarahb
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I think that if you are very very wrapped up in the use of a glass goblet in a partciular parish then perhaps you are missing out on the bigger picture as much as someone who is unaware of what the GIRM is or why it exists.
I guess what Im saying is, there is as much harm in one extreme as in the other. And online the extreme I see most often is a tendency towards legalism whereas IRL the extreme may be the poor catechesis of a parish.
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CrunchyMom
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sarahb wrote:
I think that if you are very very wrapped up in the use of a glass goblet in a partciular parish then perhaps you are missing out on the bigger picture as much as someone who is unaware of what the GIRM is or why it exists.
I guess what Im saying is, there is as much harm in one extreme as in the other. And online the extreme I see most often is a tendency towards legalism whereas IRL the extreme may be the poor catechesis of a parish. |
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I suppose it is true that it is easier to be uncharitable online when one has relative anonymity. One might also be inclined to venting online rather than IRL because of the anonymity or perhaps because the only like minded people they know are online-- which may create the perception that "onliners" are legalistic. However, all the people online are real life people, too.
I'm not really sure it is relevant to the topic at hand whether you personally think that others online are too legalist and miss the point. The topic is about how to discuss something like a glass goblet used in a mass while maintaining charity--and how to continue discussing it (or whether to continue discussing it) when those around you seem to be straying from that. Having the discussion itself need not imply that those people are "very, very wrapped up" in it.
It is apparent that we all bring our prejudices to any discussion like this. I suppose part of the challenge is to try and overcome such prejudices about the other person when discussing these things which tend to get more heated. It can be hard for any of us to maintain proper balance that doesn't result in legalism OR indifference.
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Willa
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sarahb wrote:
| I think that if you are very very wrapped up in the use of a glass goblet in a partciular parish then perhaps you are missing out on the bigger picture as much as someone who is unaware of what the GIRM is or why it exists. |
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It's true that sometimes people especially online seem to take satisfaction in pointing out abuses and don't seem to have a sense of humility and true sorrow about it. I was at a homily where a very orthodox priest complained that some of the worst trashing he has ever heard in regard to priests and bishops has taken place in "holy" Catholic families, and he mentioned homeschoolers in particular. I think it's true that the devil gets involved in "righteousness" and does his best to turn it into ultimately sterile hostility and carping.
However, people are right to be grieved and justly indignant about the list of things you mentioned earlier. They are ALL connected with the reverence that we should have towards our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. For example, glass goblets are breakable, and you could go through the whole list the same way. All the rituals have reason behind them and are not trivial.
I believe that the scandals are a symptom of the same disease that leads to careless abuse of the liturgical norm. They came about at the same time frame and the same seminaries are hotbeds of both liturgical abuse AND impurity.
The difference is that the laymen can SEE the liturgical abuses and that it affects their participation in the mass. They do have a right, even an obligation, to protest by charitable means when they see Our Lord not being treated respectfully by those who are primarily responsible for reverence. The respect that bishops and priests show towards their calling is a direct influence on the lay-people. I do believe that one of the reasons that so many don't even know about the Real Presence in the sacrament is because they have seen, again and again, the Eucharist treated casually and inappropriately. This is a great sorrow.
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Barbara C.
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The original question was about respect for clergy. And it seems like people have been dismissing as irrelevant those who bring up the abuse scandals. It is true that a lot of it stemmed from ignorance about the true nature of the mental disorder (thinking it could be wiped away by confession/absolution), lack of discernment for which men had a true calling, other seminary issues, and a certain amount of, shall we say, reputation management.
However, I think part of the point a few people may have been trying to make is that part of the reason that "bad" priests were able to get away with it for so long is that many parents held clergy is such high esteem that they could not fathom that a priest could ever do something like that. When accusations were made, people believed the priest rather than the child because he was the authority figure.So there is that fine line between respecting someone and trusting them without question.
Of course priests, bishops, etc should be treated with respect just as every person should be. And we all have to discern how to role model proper respect for authority figures, even if ones we disagree with on certain issues. Then we can go a step further and show our children how to make changes properly within an institution or to humbly accept and pray for the things we can't change. And when all else fails maybe listen to Thumper's mother, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
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JennGM
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Barbara C. wrote:
The original question was about respect for clergy. And it seems like people have been dismissing as irrelevant those who bring up the abuse scandals. It is true that a lot of it stemmed from ignorance about the true nature of the mental disorder (thinking it could be wiped away by confession/absolution), lack of discernment for which men had a true calling, other seminary issues, and a certain amount of, shall we say, reputation management.
However, I think part of the point a few people may have been trying to make is that part of the reason that "bad" priests were able to get away with it for so long is that many parents held clergy is such high esteem that they could not fathom that a priest could ever do something like that. When accusations were made, people believed the priest rather than the child because he was the authority figure.So there is that fine line between respecting someone and trusting them without question.
Of course priests, bishops, etc should be treated with respect just as every person should be. And we all have to discern how to role model proper respect for authority figures, even if ones we disagree with on certain issues. Then we can go a step further and show our children how to make changes properly within an institution or to humbly accept and pray for the things we can't change. And when all else fails maybe listen to Thumper's mother, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." |
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The Sacrament of Holy Orders, the office of the clergy is always to be respected, and we have to pray for our priests. The devil is very consistent in constant temptation because of their sacramental gift of being able to say Mass.
The crimes committed by certain priests did happen, and not one is dismissing them. But they were sins committed by the individual human. Personally, he'll have to suffer more because of the higher gifts he has been given and the abuse of his office. But it's not a black mark on the sacramental character of Holy Orders, nor all clergy.
Some of the abuses did remain hidden because of disorder of raising the person of the priest to a higher level, not remembering that he is still human, with the effects of original sin. He is still subject to temptation, and probably has much more in his role than we do. And I'd say Vatican II has been a blessing to help lay people realize their role in the Church and the universal call to holiness, not just religious.
We can't lump all priests into this "guilty by association." They are part of the Mystical Body and our good priests are hurting even more with this backlash of anger and resentment because of the sins committed by their brother priests. So even more, we need to pray and respect our priests especially now.
I think it helps to remember to not be so subjective and look objectively at the bigger picture.
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sarahb
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I really think it helps to look at the bigger picture as well. Im so glad Barbara shared her thoughts.
Unfortunately the acts of a few priests were sytematically hidden by the people who had the power to shed light where the darkness had crept in. This has led to some disillusionment and distrust with the catholic heirarchy which is well worth repairing.
No we must not ever lump all priests together as guilty by association. Neither should we select a group of priests (such as those who offer the Latin Rite) and call them the true priests while eschewing parish priests who really are the hands of Jesus in so many people's lives.
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aussieannie
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LucyP wrote:
| A couple of times I have felt very uncomfortable around certain groups and individuals because of the attitude that the NO is wrong (not just not what they like for their family, but a hideous blasphemous sin) |
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Then what of the saints that have attended them? (We like to say  )
My husband attended a Novus Ordo Mass with Mother Teresa in Australia.
Sr Lucy (Our Lady's words were, that she would go to heaven - she will most likely be canonized in time) would have attended the Novus Ordo Mass....well definately, she would have attended some of the Papal Masses in Portugal over the decades that we definately know of.
Padre Pio...I've just watched his Mass on video and it is a Novus Ordo Mass (facing the people)...
These are all good points to bring up with such Catholics who instead of saying, they prefer the holiness and spiritual beauty of the Latin Mass, go way, way further and say the Novus Ordo is sinful or it is a mortal sin to attend it (we were told that once and that is when my husband mentioned these three holy people.)
We attend both Masses BTW.
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CrunchyMom
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sarahb wrote:
| Neither should we select a group of priests (such as those who offer the Latin Rite) and call them the true priests while eschewing parish priests who really are the hands of Jesus in so many people's lives. |
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I find it confusing that you continue to make statements like this. Who is saying this in the context of this discussion? The original question assumes this to obviously be wrong and is asking for advice on how to deal with those who might make this sort of statement. No one is defending this sort of statement. However, your making the statement seems to infer that you view some here as holding this opinion?
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ALmom
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I'd like to go back to the original question and offer some thoughts from the guidance I received when trying to navigate a course of charity and truth because both are required and figure out what I should and should not do or say in regard to hurts and dangers to the faith as they impacted our family or parish.
The priesthood is worthy of respect as to its office. The 4th commandment is very specific in telling us to obey legitimate authority in all things but sin. (BTW, I always use those words in teaching the commandments to my children and use the example if in the very unlikely event that I would ever tell them to sin, they cannot obey me - of course this is not likely and they know it isn't but I have told them they must say No and refuse but I personally think it addresses the improper submission to illegitimate authority in all kinds of circumstances way better than infringing on a child's latency period - but that is just my own opinion.)
The Pope is the legitimate authority entrusted with preserving the Mass and regulating how it is celebrated. The directives from the Church where they are clear and understandable are obviously the last word here. Vatican documents clearly indicate that no individual is allowed to tinker with this. However, there are lots of permissions and exceptions that have been duly approved - of which I would be neglecting my own duty to my family to research and worry about. The regulation and oversight of the liturgy is not my area of responsibility in the sense that it is not my primary duty. However, I do have responsibilities in this area - one of which is to make sure that I teach the children properly, the other is to bring to the attention of legitimate authority serious abuses of the liturgy or sacraments in at least some circumstances - but this requires prudential judgement. It is not an excuse not to be educated as far as I am able - but I have to understand my proper place in the church.
What do you do when there are things that are not according to the rubrics - What if the children ask a question about why we do something and they don't see it somewhere else, or perhaps someone challenges you in the prescence of the children or something is posted in the bulletin and by implication, though not clearly or explicitly coming from the pastor. What do you do? Is there a different response if the pastor basically says something is wrong that was a long standing practice which we believed the Holy Father supports. What guidelines have been given in how to handle these things. Or what do you do when a homily directly contradicts what you have taught your children. Obviously there is a discrepency and I have an obligation to the children. First, I must listen carefully and prayerfully realize that I can be mistaken, but if the message is clearly indicating to the children the opposite of the truth (whether or not it was intended that way), what do I do?
I asked for advice and was told, never to directly criticize the priest. He pointed out that I would be undermining the very idea of authority and would teach my children to nit pick me if I did so. I tried to follow that and failed and confessed and sought ways to fulfill my obligations in charity. Again I was guided - one way was to take what was said and explain what they must have meant by it, assuming the best possible - so if we were told to look around after communion and my children were confused by that - obviously wondering why the authority in the home and the authority in the parish (not necessarily the priest) seemed to be saying opposite things. I worded things very directly for the children, but I could reach and reflect deeply and assume that perhaps what seemed so irreverent to us was really an exaggeration to get us to reflect on how often our actions are routine, without thought and that the heart of reverence is the love and gratitude we show to God so I don't think they really literally wanted us to come back from Communion and look around, they were just trying to awaken us to think about what and why we do what we do. The other thing to do was to plan a study time and study the church encyclicals - so for instance, you didn't have to criticize or even assume you know who was responsible for whatever abuse you saw. You didn't come home from Mass whining about x, y or z - but sometime in the week, it would come up what the church had said about x, y, z and thus, without being critical, we were fulfilling the obligation to make sure our children knew what was required and it wasn't me against Father. AT the time I think initially I went way beyond the advisors intentions trying to implement this and obviously had to go back to clarify. There was an emphasis on humility - the realization that this is outside my area of direct authority and I don't know everything. There was an emphasis on charity and a caution about avoiding the constant nitpicking. I was still agonizing over what my children saw day in and day out and how that was impacting their development and faith. I was totally shocked to overhear a young person approach a priest at EWTN of all places and want to know "Why he denied his priesthood". I was embarrassed, but I think that God used that to show me how easy it is for us to nitpick our priests to death. I think I was more aware of my own faults in this regards and made more effort to stay out of those critical conversations. I generally would try to say something positive and then exit when those kinds of things come up. I still slip and end up in Confession - thank God for this sacrament. I hope that no one would judge me for my rash and careless moments. Certain temperments are more prone to being critical and noticing faults in themselves and others. I have to avoid those conversations that are inclined to get critical almost entirely. However, sometimes I do vent. I think that on-line there is the blessing that no reputations are on the line, no one knows the parish or location or. but it can lead us to degenerate from legitimate ideas on how to navigate the course and preserve reverence and faith in our children to a whine session... That is an area I find I need to work on. Sometimes, I need to talk or cry out my frustrations to sort things out about how I should act and to make sure I don't become a pressure cooker(not so much now as we really have some great things happening recently) or need some expert information about what to do or what obligations I have in this matter. I don't always approach things in the proper way, but am trying.
One thing I try to do is ask myself, how I would react if my children pointed out my every fault or discussed every time I yelled. When would it be appropriate for a child to correct the parent or communicate some error and in what manner should it be done? This has really been helpful as far as reflecting on my real obligations in a matter and that my heart is more often touched by the look of love in my children's eyes than by finger pointing. It does a lot more to help me improve in virtue.
Still I went round and round with a wonderful priest trying to figure out what to do because there are times that we cannot remain silent. Yet, what I found myself doing was holding everything in and failing to bring up some things that should have been brought up and then bringing up things that were really better left unmentioned. The priest really helped me to see that there is a criteria for when you are obligated to bring something up - but there is also a certain amount of prudential judgement involved. The criteria:
What is my degree of authority in the matter? If I have responsibility for music in the parish, then I have a greater obligation to bring up inappropriate things related to music than the person sitting in the pew.
How likely is it to make a difference or improve the situation or how likely is it to simply make matters worse? Is it something that the priest is already aware of or would calling it to his attention be a help to him.? Is there some way that you could offer a solution (ie with glass vessels, perhaps you could volunteer to raise funds or purchase precious vessels). Or is this going to be the 5th time this week you are bringing up something and the more likely result is that you will be viewed as a pest and nitpick. Or maybe, you just joined the choir and you are likely to cause resentments if you start criticizing the music now - but if you wait until your own skill in the area is known and admired you would be able to improve the situation.
How serious is the matter? Obviously, someone using homemade bread with recipes involving other ingredient for Mass is way more important than whether or not the parish uses bells. In the first place, the validity of the Sacrament is in question. So sometimes it is very clear that no matter what, I must speak. Other times, I must weigh the likely response I will receive in the particular parish situation.
If I do discern that I must speak, then it must be with humility and proper respect for the authority. It must also be through legitimate channels and to the person responsible and up the chain as necessary. It should not become a topic of general gossip nor a part of a pity party.
With regards to deciding on our own particular practices, we did not try to stand out or cause any hurt feelings. We tried to listen, to be respectful and thoughtful but we felt we had an obligation to do as the church intended in the best way we understood it. Sometimes we quietly did things - read the Psalm ahead of time or in the missalette at the time. It is quite possible that the Psalm being used/sung was a legitimate substitution but it was, at the time, clearly obvious that sometimes it was replaced with a loosely related song. We simply read one that we knew was correct. Some of the things we did would certainly have been totally unnoticed by anyone else, other things we were one of only a very few. We didn't talk about it, we simply did what we discerned was the Church's intention trying always to keep an attitude of obedience to the Church.
It was not our place to point fingers, fuss at anyone else - but we did do whatever it was that we understood the church intended. We could have been wrong but we did what we discerned was the Church's intent from the actual church documents, trusting that our pastor would inform us, as was his duty, if we were doing something truely wrong or there was some obscure instruction from somewhere that we hadn't seen. We simply didn't think about what everyone else was doing and assumed they were doing whatever they thought they were supposed to do - The one thing that was absolutely certain was that there was a great deal of confusion.
On one occassion we felt the situation was such that we had been told by legitimate authority that we were incorrect. We respectfully acknowledged the authority, spoke of where we had seen information and asked about this. The priest indicated that a lot depended on who said it and under what form and he would look into it for us. In the meantime, we conformed to what was requested (within 1 Sunday, we were told that we had been correct and not only did we resume our previous practice, but this information was publicly passed on to the whole parish in the bulletin). I believe our witness of obedience to legitimate authority is something God will use for the good of our family and the Church. It was not a situation where the other practice had been condemned by the church and there was legitimate confusion as to what the church intended. I am not a canon lawyer, nor do I know the weight of all the little intricacies. I had seen what I saw as a legitimate explanation and we had assumed that we were in obedience, but when it was implied that we were not, we explained our desire to be in obedience and the reason we had been continuing a practice he thought not permitted. I expressed genuine frustration, charitably expressed, in terms of being jerked around with things supposedly forbidden that never were - and often these were things that helped us teach our kinesthetic, young children the difference between Christ's prescence in the Eucharist and his presence in the assembly. The priest really did follow up - actually did a whole lot of research because I couldn't even remember the source - but within 1 Sunday he had informed us that we were correct - and had verified it with the Bishop as well. The bulletin was modified to reflect the new information and we were thankfully no longer assumed to be in disobedience by our fellow parishioners. We were doing the best we could to obey in the best way we knew how. In the process, something was done for the whole parish in clarifying a confusion.
I know that authority is such a difficult thing for us - as Americans (we like to think all things must be decided by consensus), since the 1960s (when authority was pretty much attacked from all angles) and since there has been open, hurtful and abusive misuse of authority. If you look at the history of the church you will see this issue rear its ugly head over and over again. The greatest harm comes not from an individual error as from arrogant and stubborn refusal to submit to the decision of the Church. We must understand and abide by the true exercise of and submission to legitimate authority.
I have also learned that sometimes it is easy to make rash judgements when you are suffering. It is one thing to know that something is an abuse and another thing to presume to know the motivation or intent of another. Sometimes we are silent from fear of being labeled holier than thou (and sometimes it is hard not to feel like this when you are subjected to statements of being labeled because of one bad encounter with an individual whose conduct is then extrapolated to everyone in the group - ie homeschoolers are all trying to get out of stuff, prideful, ..... This is hurtful and sometimes hard to let go of, but we must. We have to try to do what we are supposed to do whether praised or criticized. Sometimes, simply answering a RE poll that you were tempted to presume is one more of those wastes that never make a difference. My opinion was requested - what do my children want to see in youth activities. My older children's input was requested. This was done in a bulletin announcement. We all gave our opinion. I've seen a lot of those very suggestions being implemented - and we were very honest, after all that is what we were supposed to do.
This is way too long winded and I need to attend to duty, but bottom line, pray, discern, be humble, prudent and charitable in all things. Obey the 10 commandments - or confess when you fail and then trust the rest to God. We need to also be charitable with one another - and not presume to know (and I am not saying anyone here is presuming anything) the factors or intent or struggles towards holiness. It is easy to see one outburst and assume the person has a litany of complaints, when maybe this is the one time they have spoken in 15 years of suffering. If we presume the best possible light, I think we can get on with speaking the truth in love.
Oh and you asked about the Latin Mass and the NO. I just try to stay out of those conversations but without hiding the fact that I attend both Tridentine and NO liturgies (Oh and you can get some pretty heated feelings from both the NO only folks and those who seem to question the NO. I figure the church has spoken and that is good enough for me. I am happy that this option is available to all and find myself being more and more aware of how nothing essential has changed. I am very honest with both my concerns (ie I really believe Father made an important point about not getting into one Mass is holier than another) and what I really love about each Mass. I also have an immediate family with differeing family members with differing preferences. We are attending Mass as a family regardless of where we go - and it is good to remember it is Our Lord whom we are receiving either place! I can be compassionate in that I honestly see how differing learning styles struggle with more distractions at differing Masses - regardless of how closely they follow rubrics. We can learn to sacrifice for one another and support one another regardless of our own individual preferences. That is life at my house. We are not perfect people, and I cannot expect perfection until I am face to face (I hope being told well-done) with Jesus. I want folks to overlook my faults, understand my weaknesses, make allowances for my errors, forgive me when I'm impatient, too busy to notice or respond in the way I should. I do not want anyone deceiving me about what is and is not true or being unclear - but I do want to be respected. I hope and pray I have the courage to do the same for others - and especially my priests. I have also experienced God's guidance from some very unusual sources - a spouse who before he had ever known or even set foot in any church telling me that if you believed in God, the Catholic church was the only one that made any sense when I wanted to try out a bunch of different churches to see if we would have unity of faith in one of these. He kept me in the Church and joined me there - he didn't have to even be baptized for God to guide me through him. Then certainly, God can guide me through the ordained ministers in the parish in which I live - if I am humble enough to listen.
Janet
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Mackfam
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ALmom wrote:
| bottom line, pray, discern, be humble, prudent and charitable in all things. Obey the 10 commandments - or confess when you fail and then trust the rest to God. We need to also be charitable with one another - and not presume to know (and I am not saying anyone here is presuming anything) the factors or intent or struggles towards holiness. It is easy to see one outburst and assume the person has a litany of complaints, when maybe this is the one time they have spoken in 15 years of suffering. If we presume the best possible light, I think we can get on with speaking the truth in love. |
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I just found your whole post so beautifully written and instructive, Janet...as ever. I'm so grateful to be your friend!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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hylabrook1
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Janet -
Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to post your beautiful reply. Absolutely aside from anything else that has been raised in this thread, you have said so many things that I really need to take to heart in living each day. God bless you.
Peace,
Nancy
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
ALmom wrote:
| bottom line, pray, discern, be humble, prudent and charitable in all things. Obey the 10 commandments - or confess when you fail and then trust the rest to God. We need to also be charitable with one another - and not presume to know (and I am not saying anyone here is presuming anything) the factors or intent or struggles towards holiness. It is easy to see one outburst and assume the person has a litany of complaints, when maybe this is the one time they have spoken in 15 years of suffering. If we presume the best possible light, I think we can get on with speaking the truth in love. |
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I just found your whole post so beautifully written and instructive, Janet...as ever. I'm so grateful to be your friend! |
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This part that Jennifer quoted bears quoting again, imo. That is a perfect example of how one remains charitable in the course of a discussion like this!
I think, too, your examples about desiring forgiveness and respect for yourself are great things to bring up when you find yourself in a conversation you feel is turning uncharitable. Thank you!
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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mariB
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While studying church history with our sixteen year old son, we were blown away with the careful consideration and prayerfulness of the Church bishops from the beginning...year 325 AD and the First Council of NIcea. The time and effort put into the very Creed we pray today shows the stability and beauty of the Church. The church has carefully, through the Holy Spirit, laid out specific guidelines for the liturgy.
Since you may not know my backround, I am a cradle Catholic, who grew up in the very loose 70's, left the church, went to various protestant churches for three years, then didn't go to church, and then came back to the church 13 years ago.
I now understand the "why" of the church guidlines. We are NOT a faith of emotion nor is being a Roman Catholic a leap of "blind" faith.
I believe my inconsistency in the past stemmed from just basing my faith on emotion. Our church has these guidelines because it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
Our family was just having this very conversation the other night! I told the children the WHY of so much theology studies ...because I want them to KNOW their faith not just feel all warm and fuzzy.
I love this forum because I have learned so much from these other ladies. And even regarding discussions of music in the liturgy and topics like that, I really try to see where the person is coming from. Maybe they know something that I don't? And...most of the time they do!
Yes, being charitable online is very important. It is the very time to practice our faith. And being charitable to our priests is VERY important.
It is hard to know when to bring up topics to our priests that may be bothering us at our parishes. But, they are used to being questioned. Our dear priests are very well educated! We must always be respectful of them. We can speak with them without making them defensive. I think it is important to come to them with a tone of HELPING them. Imagine all that they have to do each day! Our priest has to run from parish to parish saying mass. He is a lovely man that many have criticized. In our place of business we have had to defend him.
Regarding the scandals I feel that no one here has minimized this horrible atrocity. This is unfortunately a serious problem in all walks of life. Praying for all involved.
It is no reason to leave the Church. We go to mass before the Blessed Sacrament...we are there for our Dear Lord. Our faith runs so much deeper. As we study Church history we realize that there were so many more good priests than sinful ones.
We must constantly pray for our priests...they have so much to do! We must not judge them only God knows their hearts, only God knows them as stated in Psalm 139:1-4
"Lord, you have probed me, you know me. You know when I sit and when I stand; you understand my thoughts from afar. My travels and rest you mark; with all my ways you are familiar. Even before a word is on my tongue, you know it all."
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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sarahb
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CrunchyMom wrote:
sarahb wrote:
| Neither should we select a group of priests (such as those who offer the Latin Rite) and call them the true priests while eschewing parish priests who really are the hands of Jesus in so many people's lives. |
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I find it confusing that you continue to make statements like this. Who is saying this in the context of this discussion? The original question assumes this to obviously be wrong and is asking for advice on how to deal with those who might make this sort of statement. No one is defending this sort of statement. However, your making the statement seems to infer that you view some here as holding this opinion? |
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No, I did not imply nor should you infer that I mean any particular posters on this thread, AS I HAVE PREVIOUSLY STATED. Please do not look for me to be casting aspersions in your direction. I beg you to believe me when I say I do not care to make this in any way personal.
I use the word WE because WE are the catholic church. WE the catholics around the world. And some of the views Ive seen expressed over time do very much cross the line from joyfully living within the Magisterium into zealous adoration of rules over people. Being able to balance this properly is a truely saintly feat. ITA with the previous poster. I do think though that Jesus gave us one rule to live by which is the Greatest Commandment, and that is to Love One another. In light of that, griping about chit chat in church before Mass is just one more thing to be offered up and prayed about. Of course its difficult. Its just as sinfully human to like to kvetch as it is to like to chat when you should be focused on Him. 
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: attitude to bishops/authority/NO Mass
