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ladybugs
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Michaela wrote:
on Thanksgiving or Christmas. 
DH and I are quiet people. Making up stuff to talk about makes me nervous. Imagining the awkward silence when there is nothing to talk about really makes me nervous.
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Ok, Michaela, let me console you.
Dh and I invited our dear Polish priest friend over a few weeks ago. He ended up not being able to come during lunch but in the afternoon on a Sunday.
We have a small foosball table that the kids pulled out and played with Father. My dh and I were sitting in the living room and we were both EXHAUSTED - forget conversation....we both fell asleep. 
Father was soooooo understanding though - he very, very much reminds me of JPII and he enjoyed playing foosball!!!!
So, you may not even have to converse  - Father just might be so grateful to have interaction!!!
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Waverley
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AngieMc -I'm taking you up on your kind offer to explain the NO Mass. I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what it means or what the concerns about it are. I would appreciate your information very much.
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CrunchyMom
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Angie Mc wrote:
I attend a NO mass and am a big fan of the right authority of our Church . I will discuss topics of concern that can be associated with the NO mass and I enjoy discussing how to discern a valid mass from a mass that isn't valid. The vast majority of NO masses are valid and we're most often discussing preferences and questions about style and conformity. I will not speak disrespectfully of a priest or parishoners or make assumptions about their motives, etc. At least, that's my plan.
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I attend the TLM on Sunday but the NO for daily, and I do find myself on the defensive side for the NO in many discussions. I find that even regarding issues that aren't simply a matter of style, many people confuse a mass that is invalid versus one that is illicit. Even the mass at Eastern Orthodox (not Catholic) is valid.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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Waverley wrote:
| AngieMc -I'm taking you up on your kind offer to explain the NO Mass. I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what it means or what the concerns about it are. I would appreciate your information very much. |
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I'm not Angie Mc, but I'll do my best and she fill in my holes 
NO simply means Novus Ordo which is a term for the newer form of the mass that came out of the second Vatican Council. It is considered the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite. It is what the vast majority of Roman Catholic parishes use in the vernacular language though it can be said in Latin as well.
The Traditional Latin Mass is the form of the mass said prior to VII. It is always in Latin and the rubrics of the mass are much more strict than those of the newer form.
There are those who will claim that the changes made to create the newer form were so extreme as to render it invalid. There are about a million points and degrees of opinion regarding which form is better, and I could offer my opinion, but others would inevitably have a different one. The point as it relates to the original post is that the discussions can be quite heated and like any other hot topic, it can be hard to know how to relate to others charitably when the topic arises. There are many sources for learning if you are interested. I think that Father Zuhlsdorf's blog www.wdtprs.com is one of the more balanced sources for learning about the liturgy and the newer form of the mass as it is relevant in the Church today.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Angie Mc
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Waverley wrote:
| AngieMc -I'm taking you up on your kind offer to explain the NO Mass. I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what it means or what the concerns about it are. I would appreciate your information very much. |
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Thanks for your vote of confidence, Waverley. Honestly, I may enjoy discussing and learning about such matters but am *in no way* an expert. I recommend that you do go to the experts! But before I send you off to read, please do not be embarrassed. You will learn a lot just hanging around informed members here.
Here is a quick explanation of terms from EWTN.
For a thorough read and reference go to General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
And there are many, many, more related church documents to help.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
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Kathryn UK
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LucyP wrote:
| I am so socially inept and our level of entertaining is not elevated - even our family prefer to avoid it! |
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Lucy ... make your Lazy Sunday Morning Chicken and you can't go wrong . It has become a family favourite here - I have been meaning to leave a comment on your blog to thank you.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
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sarahb
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ladybugs wrote:
sarahb wrote:
MaryM wrote:
| I think we need to remember to view the St. Francis quote in terms of the original question here which is in regard to the attitudes toward priests and their failings or perceived failings in more general terms. Yes, there have been heinous crimes committed by some priests - that is not what is being addressed here. |
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I think its all relevant to the topic, respectfully.
It seems we let some very important things slide sometimes while we quibble over the minutiae. |
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No one is letting anything slide.
If you recall, it was a small number of priests who committed the heinous crimes of which you refer.
In this thread, we're talking about the position of priest and the need for humility in following Church teaching.
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This thread has been bothering me and I feel I need to say this.
Why is it that cathoics can comfortably complain about things online like:
chit chat before mass
glass vessels at communion
the inappropriate ending of Lifeteen mass used by some priests
the music used at mass (too modern?)
the instruments played at mass
the failure to follow exactly the GIRM
the cheerio bearers
the so called cafeteria catholics
the position of the tabernacle
the proper or improper display of the crucifix in church
the "scandalous" homilies at parish churches
and more
but we minimize the actions of the church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ?
Im not an outsider critisizing your church. Im a cradle catholic who practices my faith. We are talking about having respect for our clergy. This is relevant.
Perhaps this is an issue close to my heart bc I know my parish does have some of the above described issues which I have seen many rail about online. Yet my church is also a vibrant community where God is glorified and magnified by his people despite the failings of the chit chatters and the presence of the Lifeteen mass.
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Lisbet
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Quote:
but we minimize the actions of the church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ?
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You have GOT to be kidding me????????
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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sarahb
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| Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 9:41am | IP Logged
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Lisbet wrote:
Quote:
but we minimize the actions of the church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ?
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You have GOT to be kidding me???????? |
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Apparently Im not kidding you. The quote above contains the sentiment that it was just a few bad priests. That is certainly true. Unfortunately those few bad priests were re circulated by ignorant or negligent bishops. It was a systemic issue and its huge and has driven many devout catholics from the church. It just seems to me odd that this is off topic or a subject which is never ever discussed by the very catholic online who do complain with great regularity about things as insignificant as guitars at mass.
Im well aware what a difficult subject it is. I just find it to be interesting that online the focus of catholic faithful is criticism of the parish churches for minor irritations and NO masses.
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Lisbet
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There are bad priest - priests are sinners just as you and I. Some commit big henious sins against children. And personally, I don't buy the old media frenzy that nothing was/is being done. This very subject has been hashed out online, in the media, and across dinner tables over and over again...
Then there are bad priest that give scandalous homilies, wishy-washy feel-good guidance, and allow all kinds of abuses at mass.
The above are all priest, all deserving of respect, but none derserving to be let off the hook.
And for the life of me, I can't figure out how it makes a lick of sense for a 'devout Catholic' to leave the Church. The Church is not the priests...
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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sarahb
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Im sorry if my bringing it up is upsetting.
I find the constant barage of insults against typical american NO parishes upsetting.
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Lisbet
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Well, I find it slighly upsetting that the 'typical american NO parish' finds liturgical abuses and irreverence a 'minor irritation'.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Mackfam
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Non Nobis
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sarahb wrote:
Im well aware what a difficult subject it is. I just find it to be interesting that online the focus of catholic faithful is criticism of the parish churches for minor irritations and NO masses. |
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There is no doubt that this is a valid concern, Sarah. It is clear that it is a primary concern of yours. I don't diminish or excuse the validity of the concern or the heinousness of the actions of those priests involved in scandal and abuse of the innocent. Mindful of that, they are still ordained men of God, having received the sacrament of holy orders.
Others may be dealing with specific concerns regarding music or other displays of irreverence. These are no less valid and worthy of being addressed.
LucyP's original question particularly asked for insight into cultivating an interior attitude of respect for the clergy and also for insight into how to deal with those who dispute over the Ordinary and Extraordinary Rites of the Mass. This, too is a valid question and concern.
Assuming that LucyP and others on this thread are discussing this subject and not including the serious issue of scandal and abuse in their discussions to be somehow a statement on their view of it as *less than* or *not important* is unfair.
This thread needs to keep to a productive and charitable tone with the goal of offering insight to the original request.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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sarahb
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Mackfam wrote:
Assuming that LucyP and others on this thread are discussing this subject and not including the serious issue of scandal and abuse in their discussions to be somehow a statement on their view of it as *less than* or *not important* is unfair.
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I would never presume such a thing. In my comments reagarding the issues I see online I do not mean to imply that these issues are particular to any poster participating in this thread. Not at all. Im sorry if some felt was I singling them out for that purpose. That was certainly not my intention.
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sarahb
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Lisbet wrote:
| Well, I find it slighly upsetting that the 'typical american NO parish' finds liturgical abuses and irreverence a 'minor irritation'. |
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How do you reconcile your respect for clergy with the criticism of their parish practices?
I guess I dont feel qualified to sit in judgement of a priest who uses crystal goblets rather than ordering the appropriate communion vessels, for example. or parishes that locates the tabernacle in the rear in a chapel.
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CrunchyMom
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sarahb wrote:
Lisbet wrote:
| Well, I find it slighly upsetting that the 'typical american NO parish' finds liturgical abuses and irreverence a 'minor irritation'. |
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How do you reconcile your respect for clergy with the criticism of their parish practices?
I guess I dont feel qualified to sit in judgement of a priest who uses crystal goblets rather than ordering the appropriate communion vessels, for example. or parishes that locates the tabernacle in the rear in a chapel. |
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I guess that you aren't qualified by your own merit, but the Church has the GIRM--the rule book. If priests are not following the rule book, then the mass can be considered illicit or in extreme cases invalid. The liturgy also affects the attitudes and catechism of the faithful. These are valid concerns.
You seem to feel yourself very qualified to sit in judgment of the priests committing heinous crimes against children. No one would call you "judgmental" for speaking openly about how wrong these priests were because it is obviously bad.
Just because liturgical abuses are not as shocking to you on a personal level does not make them less incorrect or the people judging those actions as wrong any more judgmental.
I have not seen anyone treat the abuse scandals lightly. I think they are misrepresented at times by the media, etc..., but I've never heard anyone excuse the behavior. It was the same poor formation of our priests in seminary that contributed to the scandals that formed our priests in other ways as well.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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I just thought of another example that might make the position clearer. What if your parish priest decided he wanted his particular congregation to stop celebrating Christmas on December 25 but instead during the time of year his research had led him to believe Jesus' birth really happened? Would you sit back and say, "who am I to judge? He's a priest."
This priest is still a priest and deserves our respect. He is still a Christ figure consecrating the Eucharist, but action would need to be taken in order to correct him in charity. You would need to explain to your children that this was incorrect, etc...
The types of abuses that have creeped into the liturgy are not really that different from this example accept that this would probably bother you personally more than a glass goblet. There are many reasons why the Church in her wisdom has instituted rules.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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sarahb
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I just thought of another example that might make the position clearer. What if your parish priest decided he wanted his particular congregation to stop celebrating Christmas on December 25 but instead during the time of year his research had led him to believe Jesus' birth really happened? Would you sit back and say, "who am I to judge? He's a priest."
This priest is still a priest and deserves our respect. He is still a Christ figure consecrating the Eucharist, but action would need to be taken in order to correct him in charity. You would need to explain to your children that this was incorrect, etc...
The types of abuses that have creeped into the liturgy are not really that different from this example accept that this would probably bother you personally more than a glass goblet. There are many reasons why the Church in her wisdom has instituted rules. |
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Some of the objections I see online most often arent liturgical abuse. Its just a matter of taste. I think there exists, online mostly, on catholic forrums, an attitude of pridefulness wrt "doing it right" or "better" somehow.
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ladybugs
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Lisbet wrote:
Quote:
but we minimize the actions of the church when it comes to this horrible mishandling of our children and brothers and sisters in Christ?
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You have GOT to be kidding me???????? |
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You certainly imply alot when you make this comment, Sarah - and it's out of line.
How do you know that I haven't been a victim of such abuse but can still manage to recognize the honor of the position?
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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JodieLyn
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Gently ladies, we don't know who might be hurting or from what.
The thread started to know how to gently deal with people who perhaps are being unreasonable about things that may or may not be abuses.
Let's deal with each other gently as well.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: attitude to bishops/authority/NO Mass
