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Mary G
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| Posted: Nov 09 2005 at 12:35pm | IP Logged
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I have to second (or third) the thanks to Brenda for posting the Benezet article -- what a joy to read this man's experiement. Here was an educator who was really trying to ensure his kids got educated! It felt so CM-ish too, with narration and focus on books, etc.
But, I too am with Books -- who to believe. I think with my litles I'll just lighten up on the math and give them workbooks when they ask, but just use math when they need it -- baking, gardening, estimating how long they rode their bikes or whatever. As Books mentioned, the curriculum Benezet developed seems pretty reasonable and natural to me.
Blessings all
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Bookswithtea
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***Dear Books,
I am so sorry! I hoped the article would help you not confuse you more! ***
Oh Brenda, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean that the link was part of the problem. Its an awesome article. I've been musing on it all day long. I'm just perpetually confused about educational philosophy.
I told a girlfriend today that I am like that scripture where the writer warns about being blown by winds of doctrines.  I know that was intended to relate to religion, but I think it happens to me. I am committed to using living books, but other than that, I find myself drawn to so many different methods and I can't seem to figure out what I believe about it all.
I promise you...the problem is me, not your post!
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Leonie
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I find it confusing too - all these theories on the best way to teach maths ( or to educate our dc!).
What helps me is prayer and observing my dc - all the opinions may be good and great but not effective of they don't reach the individaul children I am given by God.Iykwim?
I can observe what works for my dc and when I sense a need or a change of tack, I can work in new approaches - the mother-child dance 
I can pray and talk to my dh.
WRT finishing workbooks - I just go through the books and we skip some pages - some are not necessary because we do a lot of that area in real life ( thinking this week of Anny's "what is a litre?" etc workbook questions). Some is extra repetition that the child may not need.
I took Raymond Moore's advice to heart, as an new homeschooler - "Use your books, don't let your books use you." 
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 09 2005 at 7:00pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I feel like a freak. One day I am on the side of the better late than early/Bluedorns/Carole Joy Seid/Moore's. The next day I am panicking and pulling out a math workbook. |
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Dear Books,
You sound like a normal homeschooler to me. We don't want to ruin our kids! I think God may be calling you to try to experiment a little. It sounds like it.
When I posted I did not mean to imply "If you do it wrong, you will ruin your kids." Now that I look back, I see it may have sounded like that a bit.
I was trying to say that if you want to experiment with informal methods but have trouble with the logistics, keeping things going, a scope and sequence can be like having a history text for a spine. You know, a math spine -- I need one, personally! It helps give me a bit of direction and I can still have some flexibility in what we do day by day.
I have to admit that my 9yo probably does less than an hour per week of formal math altogether -- in fact, I'm almost certain it's less than an hour a week, and we only school formally about 32 weeks in the year. Yet he's on grade level plus. It doesn't take much! I do think the Moores/Bluedorns etc are generally right, because you can usually do more harm pushing things in the early years than you do by waiting a bit. IT's just that if I had to do it over again with my middlies, I wouldn't have been SO laid-back as I was, where no formal OR informal math was getting done. For me, informal seems to have to come by way of a little bit of formal. It happens that way with almost everything, for me.
Just so you have that context. I did not want to confuse your decisions!
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Nov 10 2005 at 7:29am | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
I was trying to say that if you want to experiment with informal methods but have trouble with the logistics, keeping things going, a scope and sequence can be like having a history text for a spine. You know, a math spine -- I need one, personally! It helps give me a bit of direction and I can still have some flexibility in what we do day by day.
I have to admit that my 9yo probably does less than an hour per week of formal math altogether -- in fact, I'm almost certain it's less than an hour a week, and we only school formally about 32 weeks in the year. Yet he's on grade level plus. It doesn't take much! I do think the Moores/Bluedorns etc are generally right, because you can usually do more harm pushing things in the early years than you do by waiting a bit. IT's just that if I had to do it over again with my middlies, I wouldn't have been SO laid-back as I was, where no formal OR informal math was getting done. For me, informal seems to have to come by way of a little bit of formal. It happens that way with almost everything, for me.
Just so you have that context. I did not want to confuse your decisions!
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Thank you. Less than an hour a week? And still on schedule? That does give me more context.
I appreciate the recommendations about prayer, too. I talked with dh last night and told him I just *cannot* make all these decisions by myself. The consequences weigh too heavily on me and I get completely freaked out. We are going to do some reading and praying together about it. I think having a preteen is what has really escalated all of this for me. I just didn't worry all that much when my oldest was only 8. I always figured "there's time to catch up." But now...that time is almost here!
I appreciate y'all letting me rant about this. I really needed to think out loud. Thank you!
~Books
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Leonie
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| Posted: Nov 11 2005 at 8:11pm | IP Logged
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Here is an interesting article on maths - David Albert
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ALmom
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Could it be that the articles are geared to the teach to the test mentality. I do think there has to be some Math, but I don't get the idea from the article that these people said No Math, just not formal, beat it into the head, formula plugging Math.
I do find the articles helpful as we do use a text and can get drawn into just plugging through it mindlessly (and I have compliant dc so they don't particularly balk) and the repetition sometimes helps the dc remember their facts. It was a good reminder to think about what is really important at the elementary age - they add, subtract, multiply, divide, measure, estimate distances and sizes, and maybe a bit of an understanding of fractions (we do divide special treats among 6 dc so there are plenty of real life opportunities for this).
I do think that there is a point here. Does any of this really have to be taught with a formal textbook. Of course not. Do you play games with dice - especially those strategy games where you're the jewel thief trying to get to the jewel and can use a myriad of ways). I'm not creative enough to come up with ways for multiplying and dividing - but the basic concepts do come from real life stories. My dh is a natural at this at the table and does most of his math in his head while I need pencil and paper for everything. He is always asking about the cheapest brand and size for things we buy, how to calculate tax, etc. It all comes up so naturally. We could have a family pot and drop in what the dc help us save at the grocery, etc. and use it for a special treat, etc.
Since I'm a bit uninspired I tend to use the text to cover the bases - then when see a place where dc is stumped (ie here is something we really haven't done much with in real life, how do we create opportunities for this). I love the article with all those ideas - though I doubt we really will ever throw out the textbook as I have too many folks and not enough of me to go around and I'm not a natural(more like what Willa mentioned) I do need the scope and sequence some or I just might not think of doing any measuring/estimating (and I don't have any depth perception so I cannot estimate myself).
Now, I do tend to think that these articles tend to exaggerate some (to make their point) and may leave us with a funny feeling that we are hurting our dc if we do use a Math text. I don't think we necessarily are - but here are some things I have been thinking about - (just my musings, no real authority behind them).
What is it about the school system/textbook that seemed so dangerous to these authors. I think the common features in both were moms/teachers that were frustrated with a dc that didn't seem to be "getting it" and yet kept pounding on with greater pressure in the same old way. If you use a text, what do you do when dc gets stumped? We drop the text for a while, play some games, come back to the concept with a different approach later when real life foundations are more in place. I think that is more what he is talking about - It is not nearly so important for dc to know how to plug numbers into a formula as it is to think mathematically. Once they think mathematically, then plugging numbers in a formula will be a reasonable short-cut to what they already know and won't frustrate them and will be picked up quickly and easily without frustration. The real danger in the other approach is having a dc desperately trying to memorize the steps of long division without a clue what division is all about - and making some of the most bizzare mistakes and then getting so frustrated that they begin to develop a self-image of a math dummy (and in a school system this can be doubly enforced with failing grades, etc.) Then they don't even try to think mathematically, which is the whole point.
The other thing I see, is the intense pressure to race through math levels as if that were the end goal and getting so much repetition every year that Math is no longer fascinating but a boring exercise. We can tend to fall into this if we are not careful. Here I think that being able for me to stand back and say - Ok how long is Math taking my dc to complete and why is it taking so long. With one dc it was simply the eye/hand delay. Perhaps more time with real life and less with a textbook would have been more beneficial here. Others, we have them test through repetitive levels or skip problems. I want to make sure that my dc do have a balance of leisure to ponder, to read, to follow their own interests. If we have become so bogged down in a textbook that dc does not have time to build the project they wanted to work on - we really are spending time inefficiently. He'd have learned as much math or more from the project than from the text. Then it is time for me to re-evaluate, perhaps use some temporary down time to break a bad pattern and then come back to the text later when we can again use it as a true scope and sequence and practice problems rather than as a substitute teacher.
Hope my ponderings made some sense. I see so much good in all these different methods that sometimes I can get bogged down in being confused and seeing them all as absolutes. Here - this guy now has the definitive answer - but Oh my which definitive answer is really definitive. I do better when I can try and garnish what is helpful for our family and not sweat the little stuff. I always tell people who ask about our curriculum - don't fix what isn't broken. If what you are doing is working well for your family, don't go changing it because somebody else you admire finds something else that works for them. On the other hand, if you are at a wall and things are not working well, then maybe you want to experiment some.
I think it is more important to be in tune with dc and provide the environment, opportunities and even textbooks that help them and adjust what truely isn't working. Prayer!
Janet
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BrendaPeter
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Very well said, Janet.
I'm learning that it's extremely important to "know" your child and work with them. For instance, my 6 1/2 year old ds is progressing pretty slowly with reading. We stopped at Lesson 8 in the book we're using & instead are working with magnetic letters & all the "at" words. He has done so well(!!) that now we're back to using the book. Unfortunately I was not so "tuned in" with our 1st ds & did some "pounding", I'm sorry to say  . Once again, we need to be open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit with our attention focused on WHAT is truly important - i.e. that they learn Math in a certain amount of time or that we foster a love of learning and, most especially, a love for each other.
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Willa
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ALmom wrote:
Now, I do tend to think that these articles tend to exaggerate some (to make their point) and may leave us with a funny feeling that we are hurting our dc if we do use a Math text. I don't think we necessarily are - but here are some things I have been thinking about - (just my musings, no real authority behind them)...
I see so much good in all these different methods that sometimes I can get bogged down in being confused and seeing them all as absolutes. Here - this guy now has the definitive answer - but Oh my which definitive answer is really definitive. I do better when I can try and garnish what is helpful for our family and not sweat the little stuff. |
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Janet,
How true! #1, when someone cares enough about something to write an article about it, that person will tend to emphasize the position he or she is taking. They wouldn't be writing if they didn't have a theory which they want to focus on and bring out. There is nothing wrong with that, but it IS usually one sided. So #2, I've had to learn to filter out and process ideas through my own family circumstances, and just leave the rest aside without guilt.
I didn't realize it when I was a beginning homeschooler, but most effective teaching methods have a fundamental base -- of taking the time (Leonie always quotes: "anything works if the teacher does!") and effort to pay attention to what the child is actually learning. Most of the rest IS the "little stuff."
And Brenda's point about the Holy Spirit goes a long way, too.
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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Great article, Leonie. Seems to back up the earlier one posted.
I've been thinking. There are so many complicated phonics programs out there, but for some reason, I don't stress about reading at all. I don't use any formal programs. I have a system that makes sense to me, follows a logical progression without a lot of hoopla, and allows me to work at the child's pace. It doesn't even occur to me to panic, "But what if my child never learns to read!!" I think it must be because I feel confident about the subject matter.
Math, however, was a horrible experience for me throughout childhood and I still hate it, now. While I usually have no problems making an instructor's guide work for me, I get all wiggy about math books and feel like I can't skip even one problem. So I had this idea. I'm thinking about getting MUS for dc. I have had my oldest on it now for about 2 months or so, and there is sooooooooo little writing involved that it doesn't stress either of us out. It allows us to actually have a "short" math lesson. The video handles most of the teaching for me so I don't get all stressed out about teaching the concepts. And I think that it would be pretty easy to complete a year's worth and still take time to read living math books and play math games (unlike most math programs). Like Willa mentioned, I still need a spine, and it freaks me out to not complete it in a year. Maybe by the time my 5th is ready for math, I won't feel so weird about it. But right now, I think maybe it would help me to just build some confidence in doing some extras, without worrying that we are getting behind all the time.
I think the expression I love the most from CM is "all true education is self education." I like math methods that allow the child to do the wrestling while I practice "masterly inactivity."
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Leonie
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| Posted: Nov 12 2005 at 5:22pm | IP Logged
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BWT, I think your maths spine sounds like a good idea - and very workable!
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Leonie in Sydney
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Bookswithtea
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Thanks, Leonie. I appreciate the encouragement. Now I just need to save up the funds...which probably won't be for a few months with Christmas around the corner!  Until then, I think we'll just take it easy with what we've got.
I so appreciate everyone's help.
Thank you.
~Books
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: No Formal Math before Age 10?
