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Mackfam
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 1:36pm | IP Logged
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Harsh comments and judgements about another's husband are inappropriate and not a constructive way to help Vannessa with this challenge.
Vanessa clearly indicated that she and her husband were discussing this challenge, that he is seeking wisdom, and that he is trying to be patient. Let us then think the best of him, not the worst.
Our job as Christian women is to uplift each other, encouraging each other in our vocations. It is not to judge one another or our husbands or their actions. We all fall short of the mark. I know I do...far too often.
Forms of discipline are prudential decisions left to individual families alone.
**Moderator's note**
Please limit advice to that which is constructive and charitable for Vanessa and her husband. Thank you for remembering that at 4Real we try to be gentle on people and we refrain from saying things that could be viewed as detraction.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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folklaur
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 1:42pm | IP Logged
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I'm sorry.
I apologize.
Feel free to delete my posts, so as to keep the tone as it should be.
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Leonie
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 8:56pm | IP Logged
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Personally, I'd keep talking about discipline. And praying. And being a good role model myself. ( been there, done that! It helped over time).
I also practised what I called preventative discipline -stepping in to head things off before the situation/child got to a point where dh felt he had to intervene or get cross.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Sept 17 2008 at 12:26pm | IP Logged
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I have a metaphor, the parent's tool box, that might help. I wrote about it here in a different context.
Vanessa, it appears that you and your dh agree that the specific incident you described didn't leave either of you satisfied (you may also want to consider what your child learned.) Perhaps a common goal can be to find and develop parenting tools that can be used with greater satisfaction.
My dh and I met while working with emotionally disturbed children. By law, we could not use corporal punishment. Because the children's behaviors were severe, we needed to develop ways to help these children to learn right behaviors for their sake and the sake of those around them. After marriage we continued to work with children in regular school settings as well as therapeutic settings.
By the time we had our first child, we thought we had it all together  . Boy, were we wrong! Our first child brought us to our knees, literally. Eventually we would see that our work experiences *did* help us to begin developing a parenting approach and to have different discipline tools, yet we could not escape the hard work of becoming good parents of very young children.
We were fortunate because we already had some tools. Many adults come to parenting with few tools and/or broken tools. Plus, there is always the reality of misapplying a tool. In any work, it takes time to identify tools that work for the worker and to learn how to use them. In general, a tool should be chosen based on the need (in this case, to help a very young child to learn social expectations at a table) and it should be applied with just enough intensity to get the job done.
What tool would I have used in your situation? Guessing here...I would have sat very close to my child in an effort to thwart the behavior...if he managed to do it anyway (oh, they are SO good at that) I would have calmly stated, "We do not spit at the table" then I would have apologized to those at the table for my child, "I'm sorry that Johnny spit at the table. We are grateful to be here and we won't spit again." Then I would changed the direction of the conversation, "How about those Diamondbacks?  " While others were distracted in baseball conversation, I would have cleaned up the mess and whispered direction and reassurance to the child. If my child spit again, I would quickly and without anger remove him from the table. While in private, I would discern why this happened and proceed from there. I'm exhausted just thinking about it!
What would my dh do? If he was sitting next to the child (which he usually does when he's with us because I *love* to eat and talk with others and not *parent* at the same time ) he would have firmly told him to stop. If the child didn't, he would have removed him from the table swiftly and taken him to a private space, after stating something brief to the child like "As soon as you can listen to me and not spit, you can return to the table" and my dh would be back at the table quickly as if nothing happened. I have learned a lot from this guy  .
Over the years we have come to accept that we parent differently to some extent because we are different . My dh, like many men, is rigged for quick and efficient action. When he sees a problem, he steps in to fix it..and now! This is a wonderful quality, especially as children grow older. I, on the other hand, feel compelled to consider the feelings of all involved, to get to the heart of the matter, to discuss options (way too much at times .) Yet, we have the same discipline goals and follow similar principles. Our goal is to help our children to learn how to behave well and be happy and grow into well behaved and happy adults! Some principles we follow (as discerned through prayer and sacramental grace and not to be confused that these priinciples are for all) include: consider the child's developmental stage, consider the child's temperament, use preventive measures, be clear about expectations, do not act from anger (except for very rare occasions of righteous anger which we have found appropriate once they reach adolescence), set children up for success, no corporal punishment, and give each other space to become the parent God calls us to be without harsh judgement and with support.
When children are very young (~3 and under) I am very protective and look at their little ways as letting me know that they need something. They need to be fed, changed, comforted, and constantly reassured that they are attached to adults who will meet their real needs. They don't have the brain schema to be deliberately manipulative (that comes later .) I enjoy the challenge of finding ways to meet their needs in a loving and gentle way. This was quite difficult for me (a born hot-head) at first, but the rewards have been great for our family. One of my favorite books for finding parenting tools (not sure if it has been mentioned) is Raising Your Spirited Child.
Prayers for your family, Vanessa, as you tackle the difficult and purposeful work of parenting.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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VanessaVH
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| Posted: Sept 18 2008 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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I never meant to give the impression that he is consistently abusing our children, We mostly spank on the clothed bottom, and try to deal with many things with time outs. There have been only a few times that I think he has physically gone over the top. Really the main thing has been the appropriate expectations for the age level.
Angie, the metaphor of the toolbox was very helpful, My husband is a plumber, and maybe if I copy some of your language he could understand what I mean. I really think the broken tool analogy fits because from what I have seen of his family, his dad has always been quite harsh and had extremely high expectations of behavior (which by the way caused quite a bit of teenage rebellion in severeral of his siblings IMO) But since the only families with kids we see on a regular basis are his married siblings, I think he might think that the options are to be either harsh or a pushover.....
Thank you all again for the prayers and suggestions, I am trying to find the right time to bring it up, hoping to maybe have a kid free date night this week or next.
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Vanna
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| Posted: Sept 18 2008 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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I don't believe in physical punishment of any kind. I just don't think it works but I feel smacking someone in the face is a sign of disrespect. I feel that if that were to continue the child would feel disrespected and would therefore never show respect towards his father. As adults, surely we can find a better way of raising our children than raising our hands to people a 1/4 of our size.
I am speaking from experience here. My parents would spank us and occasionally smack our faces. I couldn't wait until I was big enough to beat them up. Truly. That is what I thought my whole childhood..that someday I would be big enough to fight back. Isn't that sad. My parents weren't what most people would consider overboard with their physical punshment. I just hated it.
I think maybe you should kindly ask your husband to think about it from your child's point of view. Maybe if he realized what it would feel like for his child to see the anger on his face, to feel that huge hand on his face, to feel the fear the child must of felt...maybe he would think twice.
I will pray for all of you. I think it's wonderful that you are going to bring this up to him. Many women stand by and never say a word.
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Wife to K  Mommy to B (ds18) and G (ds8)
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seven2hold
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| Posted: Sept 18 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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I love Ginger Plowman's "Don't Make Me Count to Three." It is very practical in applying Biblical based discipline and instruction.
One of my favorite tricks she offers is to PRACTICE the right behavior. (This is the "instruction" part of discipline & instruction we are required to give our children).
For instance if one child behaves inappropriately with a sibling, they are told exactly how to behave correctly in this situation. You give them the script and the motions. Then you have them repeat the scenario with the correct behavior.
AngieMc demonstrated this in her example by speaking in the child's behalf "We are sorry. We won't spit again." This is especially necessesary when the child is three at a table full of adults.
Ginger further uses scripture to reinforce her instruction. For example, "Is spitting rude or kind?" When the child answers that it is rude. You affirm, "Yes. This was rude and love is not rude." There is no need to cite 1Corinthians 13. But by using scripture in your instruction you are helping your child to hide scripture in his/her heart.
Another use of the PRACTICE rule is when you drop your coat on the floor, you must practice carrying it to the closet and hanging it up - three times for each offense. Children quickly learn that if I put it away now, I won't have to practice it three times later for mom!
Most of all pray. Pray, pray and pray. I constantly ask the saints for intercession when I am overwhelmed. I also ask my child's guardian angels for help. My latest mantra is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. It is hard to fly off the handle after praying his holy name. Lately I have been offering up sacrifices for my DC when they are caught in a habitual bad behavior pattern. Oh, and holy water is great!! I was using it quite frequently a month or so ago (I need to bring it out again). My just turned 3yo dd was so used to a holy water blessing on the forehead that she began licking her finger when she gave out blessings to all of us! She knew it needed to be wet! I suppose I should talk to her about the holy water. :o)
You and your parents were all saddened by your DH's reaction. Do not make the mistake of telling dh how upset you and your parents are. He will see this as a personal attack from the woman he loves. This will only drive a wedge in your relationship.
Stand beside your man. Talk with him about your struggles with parenting and how you wish you had guidelines or a plan. Confess mistakes you've made or the challenge you have disciplining bad behavior while still being respectful of the child created in the image of God. Ask him for his advice on how to deal with discipline issues. As you listen to his advice for you, find options that you can affirm. Thank him for his direction and ask him to help you crate guidelines to make problem solving easier. Come up with a plan as a united front that you both agree with. It just won't work any other way. Our children are sinners, and they will use a divided front to get away with what they wish.
My sister recently reminded me that all day through their behaviors our children ask two things, "How much do you love me?" and "How much can I get away with?"
I don't have perfect children. I have crayon on my walls, fighting siblings, angry outbursts, plates left on the kitchen table and leggos all over the floor. (The boys were just jumping on the couches - they are not allowed to sit on them today, but can use them again tomorrow). After 8 babies I'm still struggling. But, each day is a new beginning. Each moment is a new beginning.
God bless you through this struggle.
(Please note, I return to Ginger Plowman's book every couple of years...sometimes more often. The instruction of children requires the instruction of mommies & daddies! Just like my kids, I'm a sinner and I lapse in requiring the behavior that I ought.)
I hope you can glean something from this rambling post. :o)
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Kathy
Wife to John
Mother to DD(91), DD(93), DD(95), DS(98), DD(00), DS(01), DS(03), DD(05), and DS(07)
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: Sept 18 2008 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
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seven2hold wrote:
| Stand beside your man. Talk with him about your struggles with parenting and how you wish you had guidelines or a plan. Confess mistakes you've made or the challenge you have disciplining bad behavior while still being respectful of the child created in the image of God. Ask him for his advice on how to deal with discipline issues. As you listen to his advice for you, find options that you can affirm. Thank him for his direction and ask him to help you crate guidelines to make problem solving easier. Come up with a plan as a united front that you both agree with. It just won't work any other way. Our children are sinners, and they will use a divided front to get away with what they wish. |
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Just wanted to say that I really appreciate your words here, Kathy--they ring so true for me, even with only my two young ones.
And now to put it into practice...
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Celeste
Joyous Lessons
Mommy to six: three boys (8, 4, newborn) and four girls (7, 5, 2, and 1)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Discipline of small children
