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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 05 2005 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
364 ...For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.
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I recently read a book about the "difficult child" -- the book talked about kids who were temperamentally MORE -- more sensitive, more negative, more irregular in their biorhythmns etc. The book made a valuable distinction (to me) between "managing" and "disciplining". We manage our temperaments or our kids' by being sensitive to their needs, by foresight as to what will stress them or be difficult, and by helping them develop strategies for coping. A lot of the things in "The Introvert Advantage" seem to be "management" techniques. If I know it's OK to work into a new situation slowly, I can plan for that and feel OK about doing it.... etc.
Now the book about the difficult children pointed out that there are secondary behaviors which have been partially precipitated by the temperament, but aren't directly caused by it. A child might get into a habit of having tantrums when he's stressed, for example. Well, tantrums are not good, of course, but they can be more effectively dealt with by proactive measures than by dealing with them when they are full blown. Charlotte Mason actually talks quite a bit about this sort of thing in her book "Character Formation". Much of the first part of the book is talking about temperamental tendencies -- a hot temper, a tendency to sulk, a lack of attention span. It's the way these things are *expressed* that may be wrong, not the things themselves.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with needing alone time to recharge, any more than there's anything intrinsically wrong with having a high metabolism and having to eat every few hours (wow, it was interesting to read about the connection between introversion and blood sugar cycles -- that's ME!). But if your blood sugar is low or your introvert batteries are in need of charging, it's not an excuse for yelling at the kids or at DH.
See, I'm trying to say there's a distinction between a natural tendency or orientation, and the manner in which it manifests itself in action. If we know what our danger points might be -- going too long without eating, or trying to interact constantly for a long period of time -- we can work to "manage" that. That's actually fostering virtue, not indulging weaknesses....in my opinion.
I have seven children and a DH who works at home. Pretty literally, I am never alone, never, not even in the bathroom. I am cuddling a nursing toddler right now! I can't DO a Mother's Sabbath, have no desire to, because I get too stressed out being away from home and away from my "babies". I take mini-breaks -- like now, or while washing dishes, or going outside with the 6yo to hear the silence (we live on a 2 acre wooded lot), or watching Iron Chef with DH after the kids are asleep  . It's not literally alone time, but it gives me a chance to pull myself together and process things, and I really need that to cope. If I didn't even have that time, God would no doubt give me something else to substitute -- . If He didn't, He'd give me something better, no doubt. There's been times when I've been beyond my comfort zone and He's definitely used that to bless me, if I let Him.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 05 2005 at 10:26pm | IP Logged
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I also am reading FlyLady's book and she talks about "Finally Loving Yourself" -- I have to admit that language isn't very appealing to me, but I have noticed her point that we treat others around us according to the way we treat ourselves. At least I do. If I am harsh on myself, I'm either correspondingly indulging my kids and DH and making myself a martyr to do so, which isn't good for any of us, OR too careless or detached about meeting their needs, because I have been careless about mine. Seems I have to be somewhat balanced and fair in the way I treat myself in order to be balanced and fair in how I treat them and my friends and so on.
If there IS an unbalance, a need of mine which is not being met, and of course there always are those in this world, it helps me to KNOW it IS a need, so I can acknowledge it and offer it up, rather than just ignore it and push it down and feel guilty about even having that need. I think Our Lord was a model in this -- He was very honest about showing what He "needed" -- "I thirst" -- but wasn't ever selfish or me-first about trying to get it. He acknowledged His emotion or desire, and then let it go for His Father's sake, for the sake of something better. We can do that too if we are called to, with His help; I believe then God gives us the corresponding graces that are better than actually having the need met.
Hope that makes sense.
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Nov 06 2005 at 8:33am | IP Logged
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Great posts! I really appreciate your drawing out the distinction between recognizing the needs associated with your temperment and the perhaps bad choices that you might make in your reaction to those needs not being met. You really do have to understand those needs to begin figuring out how to manage them in spiritually healthy and beneficial ways!
WJFR wrote:
If there IS an unbalance, a need of mine which is not being met, and of course there always are those in this world, it helps me to KNOW it IS a need, so I can acknowledge it and offer it up, rather than just ignore it and push it down and feel guilty about even having that need. I think Our Lord was a model in this -- He was very honest about showing what He "needed" -- "I thirst" -- but wasn't ever selfish or me-first about trying to get it. He acknowledged His emotion or desire, and then let it go for His Father's sake, for the sake of something better. We can do that too if we are called to, with His help; I believe then God gives us the corresponding graces that are better than actually having the need met.
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I'm not sure this is what you're saying, but I just want to be clear that you're not suggesting that we must always deny the needs associated with our temperment. Jesus of course didn't live his life without ever quenching his thirst. So the great majority of the time we are going to be allowing ourselves to satisfy the needs of our temperment. However there will be times, perhaps a great deal of the time depending on our circumstances, when we will be asked to subordinate our needs and offer them up. Being aware of our needs and that we are being asked to sacrifice them for a greater good will help us do that thankfully and well.
I just know that besides being completely unaware that some of my tendencies were actually physical needs for me, I also tended to think I needed to shove them down (or even offer them up) ALL the time. Somehow they were always wrong. I think now that there will always be times when we have to be there when we want to be alone, when we want to be quiet and we are required to socialize, when we need rest and we have to be on, but it's not right to force ourselves into that situation ALL the time when our circumstances don't require it of us. If our situation allows for us to meet those needs sometimes when others needs aren't being trampled then there is no reason to deny it. Right?
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Nov 06 2005 at 8:46am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I think now that there will always be times when we have to be there when we want to be alone, when we want to be quiet and we are required to socialize, when we need rest and we have to be on, but it's not right to force ourselves into that situation ALL the time when our circumstances don't require it of us. If our situation allows for us to meet those needs sometimes when others needs aren't being trampled then there is no reason to deny it. Right? |
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Right.  Summed up excellently!
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Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Cay Gibson
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I hope these articles do not bring more guilt to anyone. I have not finished reading the November Corner but received it yesterday from MOTH, which is a Protestant company, and wanted to share it since this thread is on-going. I have not read the October Corner which is Part I so I'm linking it as well.
While not endorsing anything, I'm hoping it'll simply supply more food for thought and sympathetic conversation.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 06 2005 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I just know that besides being completely unaware that some of my tendencies were actually physical needs for me, I also tended to think I needed to shove them down (or even offer them up) ALL the time. Somehow they were always wrong. |
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That was what I got out of the book too -- that my needs for processing time and for regular infusions of calories were NOT wrong -- not laziness, gluttony etc (though they could potentially lead to laziness et al, just as a natural hot temper could lead to sins of anger, but that's a different question). That in fact, "managing" my needs would be fostering virtue. Avoiding "near occasions of sin" to put it in Catholic terms.
But then, if there DID happen to be an occasion where my needs weren't able to be met, I could then offer them up, knowing that they WERE needs. Whereas if I denied them, I wouldn't have that opportunity to give them up freely for love of our good God.
Jesus was thirsty; He could have had angels come down from heaven to quench His thirst; but He didn't. That was not His Father's Will or plan. Similarly, if my children were starving and I was too, their food needs would come ahead of mine.
A real life example -- when Aidan was in the hospital, he needed me more than I needed my privacy and solitude. DH and I sat with him in turns, in a monitored hospital room or an ICU -- no privacy, no solitude, no peace, no calm. So in those cases, it would be wrong to say "I need my solitude" at the expense of my higher responsibility to nurture him and protect him. But obviously, I could rightfully arrange with my DH to take turns so we could give each other breaks, and that kind of thing.
I think that knowing our temperament and "knowing ourselves" and giving ourselves a basic respect actually helps us discern between selfishness and simple, virtuous prudence. To take another example -- in my parenting I hold to the axiom that if we meet our children's needs for security and warm love, that they will grow up to be secure and loving. Whereas if we practice detached parenting, in order to "teach" our kids to be independent and self-giving, we will tend to create detached, self-centered kids. Of course our responsive parenting ought not to become enabling our childrens' vices and making things too easy for them, but it is easier to self-correct in that regard if we are really trying to know our children and understand their uniqueness.
Similarly, our attention to our own needs will be easier to balance with our vocation to "die to self" if we understand ourselves and make an effort to build on the strengths of our temperaments with understanding and care.
I hope that makes sense. It is something I am trying to process as I write it.
One more example -- if we deny our need to eat breakfast, we usually have a tendency to binge later in the day. If we deny our temperaments (under normal circumstances) we end up indulging them in indirect ways. It would be different if there WERE no breakfast or we were fasting for a good reason -- then our tendency to make up the calories later would be natural and proper. Does that analogy correspond to your point about denying our temperaments or "offering up" when circumstances don't actually call for it?
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Nov 06 2005 at 1:02pm | IP Logged
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MOTH wrote:
“But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do” (Luke 17:7-10).
This story speaks volumes to my heart concerning my expectations about my personal workload. In these verses, I don’t see the master commending his servant and offering him a quiet evening with a warm bath and a refreshing drink for his diligent work all day. The world’s philosophy of work seems to be quite the opposite of what this example shows. From the world, I hear statements like, “You have worked hard; now you deserve to take a break. Take time for yourself. It’s your reward.”
Again, please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying we won’t ever be able to rest from our labor. The Lord knows our needs, and He provides rest for us. It is likely He will give each person rest in different ways at different times.
I am saying let’s consider whether our focus is to get through with our work so we can have time to ourselves or to “Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth” (Colossians 3:2).
I am also not saying we can’t do anything we enjoy. Instead I am asking that we consider our focus. Is our purpose to make it through the work so we can “play,” or is our purpose to love our families by serving them? My heart’s desire is that what I am doing as a homeschool mom and homemaker is what I enjoy doing the most – that it is what my heart craves doing. |
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I think the key here is the purpose. My original question stemmed from a dawning recognition that the needs of my physical being might be different than the needs of someone else. I think that the author is emphasizing the sacrificial part, but she also touches on the need for rest. She offers up for example the particular way that God provides her rest. In my case I believe that I need - and that God does provide - quiet time for contemplation.
I think the author is speaking to a mentality of deserving reward for hard work. That is truly problematic and not at least what I've been contemplating. We work to serve God and we deserve nothing in return. We are given a free gift of God's love and our service is our gift back to him in love. There should be no attitude of I worked hard and I deserve a break.
What I've been questioning is a recognition of an actual physical need placed within me by the way I was created. What's been dawning on me is the honor that is given to God by respecting both the needs of a particular temperment and also the gifts that are a result of that particular temperment.
Today before mass we participated in a small group about the Eucharist. As I knelt to pray before mass I realized that I was glowing with pleasure at the compliments I'd been paid by the group. People had recognized my insight and complimented me on my thoughts. It pleased me. Then I started to smile at myself. Being led to discover the characteristics of my temperment allowed me to suddenly see that in addition to being created with particular needs God also created me with certain gifts. The insights the others appreciated today were a result of a great deal of time spent over my years of being Catholic considering quietly. While still pleased, the pride I had been drifting toward switched to deep thanksgiving to God.
He created me to be capable of offering up certain sorts of insight after long periods of deep thought. To deny myself the time my physical make-up requires to generate those thoughts would deny God the use of those talents. My body needs time of quiet and peace to contemplate and process ideas. Different people need different levels of contemplation to be capable of hearing God. I need time of alone and quiet to process thoughts and then be able to offer whatever gifts God has given me back to the community in service.
I'm certainly not denying that very often we will be asked to subordinate those true needs for a greater good and that we need to believe with complete trust that God will provide for our needs in some other way. But there might be a simplicity here that we miss. Perhaps God is asking us to serve most frequently by respecting the way we were made. By nourishing the needs of our temperment and then making use of the gifts our temperment provides.
In my own family, just today my husband commented on how my life is a witness of faith to him. My life of faith is deeply dependent on that quiet time of contemplation.
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
I hope that makes sense. It is something I am trying to process as I write it.
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It makes SO much sense! You definitely got where I'm at in my thought process and added to it. Thanks for your thoughts.
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amyable
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Thanks to everyone for this continuing thread- definitely much to think about! The recent posts have helped answer some of my questions. I can see that I'm coming from a different mindset - having NOT read the book yet, I'm in the mode of thinking that my temperament is more a "fault" than a pure bodily function like hunger or needing sleep.
Having just read "Happy Are You Poor" and a biography of St. Francis of Assisi, I was in the mode of "radical generosity" is the ultimate goal, and anything less, was, well, not truly enough. I don't want anyone to think I am actually accomplishing this goal though - just that it IS a goal, albeit possibly a misdirected one.
Maybe it's because I've found that what I thought were needs in the past really weren't. For example my last two babies have needed very little sleep and are often up for hours in the dark of night. I get much less sleep than I would say I "need" yet I function during the day by the grace of God I guess. Same with food. I've had to give up a slew of foods for every baby. This baby has been the worst, yet I feel OK with it most of the time, whereas I truly felt I would starve to death when I had to do it the first time. Having lived this for 7 years I think I translate this mentality to everything (again, don't know if that is right, it's just where I'm coming from) - In my head I'm going "I think I have a need to get away for a break with my homeschooling mom buddies" but I can just as quickly say to myself "This probably isn't a need and I just *need* to get over myself. If I can go without food and sleep then this 'need' for alone time is just silly!" Granted, I'm not really happy much of the time....hmmmmmm...
Guess I need to start that book!
Well the baby has just gone from happy to crying so my "need" for computer time is being trumped by her need to be put to bed. 
Thanks again for all your thoughts - I have a lot of contemplation to do!
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tovlo4801
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amyable wrote:
Maybe it's because I've found that what I thought were needs in the past really weren't. For example my last two babies have needed very little sleep and are often up for hours in the dark of night. I get much less sleep than I would say I "need" yet I function during the day by the grace of God I guess. Same with food. I've had to give up a slew of foods for every baby. This baby has been the worst, yet I feel OK with it most of the time, whereas I truly felt I would starve to death when I had to do it the first time. Having lived this for 7 years I think I translate this mentality to everything (again, don't know if that is right, it's just where I'm coming from) - In my head I'm going "I think I have a need to get away for a break with my homeschooling mom buddies" but I can just as quickly say to myself "This probably isn't a need and I just *need* to get over myself. If I can go without food and sleep then this 'need' for alone time is just silly!" Granted, I'm not really happy much of the time....hmmmmmm...
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Interesting thoughts. What occurs to me is that the things you mentioned actually WERE needs, but that you were asked to subordinate them to a greater need for a period of time and God provided for you. To continue to deny fulfilling those needs when there is no longer a greater need, might be to actually reject what God is asking of you at a later point. Just a thought.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Introvert Advantage and sin
