| Author | |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 2:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Sarah in SC wrote:
| The election is 78 days away--maybe we could pray a novena when the time arrives. |
|
|
And on that note...this is a perfect time to turn to prayer. The Priests for Life site has a nine week novena that starts Sept. 1.
A Prayer for our Nation as we Prepare to Elect our Leaders
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
dollylima
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 31 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 9:09am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Beautiful and perfect. I will be praying.
Thank you, MaryM.
__________________
Heather
instantkiwi
Wife to Tim
Mama to Ian 2/27/00
Mama to MaryElise 7/22/08
Step-mom to Abby, Logan and Luke
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MrsM
Forum Pro
Joined: May 05 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 9:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
dollylima wrote:
| I think it is important to remember that even the Pope has spoken out against Catholic Americans voting based on one issue alone. |
|
|
I will respectfully disagree with you. I didn't read anything in that speech that discouraged Catholic Americans from voting for or against a candidate because of that candidate's abortion stance.
My family and I will be joining in the novena as well--thanks MaryM!
__________________
Lynn in California
Homeschooling dd13, dd11, ds10, and ds8
Mom to Miracle Baby ds3
Mom to darling Elizabeth and Francis, held in Mary's arms and always in my heart
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Michaela
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 10:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you for the link to Priests for Life, Mary.
It links to Statements of the US Bishops on Political Responsibility
edited: apparently it won't let me direct to the writings, sorry. It's in the left side bar, entitled Church Documents of Faithful Citizenship
I found one here: Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship: The U.S. Bishops' Recflection on Catholic Teaching and Political Life
It's worth reading in its entirety, however Doing Good and Avoiding Evil paragraph 22 begins -
There are some things we must never do, as individuals or as a society, because they are always incompatible with love of God and neighbor. Such actions are so deeply flawed that they are always opposed to the authentic good of persons. These are called "intrinsically evil" actions. They must always be rejected and opposed and must never be supported or condoned. A prime example is the intentional taking of innocent life, as in abortion and euthanasia.
I have to get off line, but I think the Pope spoke on the White house lawn (?) about America and the Dignity of Life during his April visit. Elizabeth Foss has all of Pope Benedict's speeches from his visit linked on her right side bar.
__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 11:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I can't get the priests for life site to open. Anyone else having problems with it today?
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 11:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
opened fine for me just now.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Carole N.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 28 2006
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4484
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 11:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Father Pavone spoke at the Midwest Family Conference in Wichita. He also gave the homily at the Saturday Mass. People clapped as he made it quite clear who not to support ... and it was spontaneous clapping. No names were mentioned, but his statements reflected the Holy Father's comments on intrinsic evil.
It is sometimes very hard to find a priest who will speak out on such important issues.
__________________
 Carole ... in Wales
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Me too. I bookmarked it. 
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 3:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just as a hypothetical:
Candidate A: Anti-war, for social service programs to help the poor including better healthcare and childcare assistance,and other policies that would perhaps decrease some of the reasons women give for choosing abortion.
Candidate B: Supports going to an unjustifiable war, cuts the budget for social services, and claims to be pro-life but if president would really only has a very limited if any power to overturn Roe v. Wade (especially since any recommendations for the Supreme Court would have to be approved by the Congress which is stacked with opposite party members)
So, as a Catholic the only permissable option is to vote for Candidate B? Is that correct? I just sometimes wonder if the goal is to stop abortions or to overturn Roe v. Wade. While Roe v. Wade should be overturned and doing so would eliminate a large number of abortions in one big swoop, I think by only considering candidates who claim they want it overturned is very long-sighted and somewhat unrealistic. I think it also builds a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality and the idea that a person or politician's worth is decided purely by their position on Roe v. Wade. How many innocents have been killed by the policies of our supposedly Pro-Life president? And I'm just talking about in his home state of Texas (death penalty, anyone?).
To be honest I am really surprised that that this discussion has been allowed to continue not only as long as it has but at all. Considering this topic on Ron Paul was shut down after two responses by Elizabeth, and it was a much milder discussion. Maybe she never got around to officially changing the rules, but she makes it clear that political discussion are a no-no.
But I figured since it has been allowed to go on too long I might as well get my 2 cents in there. But I would recommend that this topic be locked or even completely erased if possible.
Oh, and I should note that Lincoln was against slavery, but if he had his way he would have shipped them all back to Africa. He still considered Africans as sub-human. I'm not saying Lincoln wasn't a great man in many ways, but his dissolving of slavery wasn't because he completely respected the human worth of people of color.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MrsM
Forum Pro
Joined: May 05 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 3:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I thought this discussion was going well, actually. You are taking in it a new direction, however, and perhaps it would be better closed.
__________________
Lynn in California
Homeschooling dd13, dd11, ds10, and ds8
Mom to Miracle Baby ds3
Mom to darling Elizabeth and Francis, held in Mary's arms and always in my heart
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 3:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Barbara C. wrote:
To be honest I am really surprised that that this discussion has been allowed to continue not only as long as it has but at all. Considering this topic on Ron Paul was shut down after two responses by Elizabeth, and it was a much milder discussion. Maybe she never got around to officially changing the rules, but she makes it clear that political discussion are a no-no.
But I figured since it has been allowed to go on too long I might as well get my 2 cents in there. But I would recommend that this topic be locked or even completely erased if possible.
|
|
|
Barbara -- Just a clarification: we DON'T close discussions as long as they stay fairly close to the policies posted. This discussion was started with an eye to education on an issue which many of us hold dear (and which is in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church). I am sorry you seem to be offended in anyway.
Politics is one of those things that is usually recommended NOT to discuss in a roomful of people -- as someone is sure to take exception to something.
The posting of the Nine-week Novena is something non-partisan that we can all embrace. Prayer is always a great answer.
Blessings!
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Carole N.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 28 2006
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4484
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 4:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Please note that this response was written by my dh who has a much better understanding of the teaching of the Church than I do. I am very adamant about my prolife conversion since I grew up in a household that believed in abortion, euthansia, the death penality, etc.
I so worry and pray for this election! Please consider carefully the choices you make! And please pray the novena!
From Carole's dh:
I am going to try to get a response in before they do shut down this thread. First regarding candidate A, the Church believes in "subsidiarity". It states that the smallest, most local group that can handle a problem should be the ones to do it. A large federal social program is not the best way to provide services. Based on that, a candidate who promises to further grow the government including using tax dollars for abortions would not be a good candidate.
Regarding candidate B, the catechism also states that the church can never have a much information regarding the leaders of a country and therefore cannot judge a leaders actions regarding action to protect its people.
But the biggest differences between candidate A and B in your scenario is the supreme court judges they will chose when they have the opportunity. One will choose judges which will act like the judges in Mass. who gave us gay marriage while the other will pick strict constructionists more in the vein of Alito and Roberts. You are certainly correct that Roe v Wade will never be overturned with candidate A. And you can't compare the death penalty to abortion. 10 or 20 per year who might have been executed for their crimes (justice) cannot be compared to 4000/day inoccent who suffer the same fate. Please read the catechism closely regarding both the death penalty and abortion.
Carole: This is not a complete response! Just consider what each person is stating and what they have voted on! I so fear for our country, the rights of the people who live there including our homeschooling community! And remember that Roe v. Wade must be overturned in people's HEARTS before it can be overturned in the law. I think that we are well on our way to this.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I do have very strong thoughts on this. And I will now try to keep my thoughts to myself! Blessings to all of you!
__________________
Carole ... in Wales
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
dollylima
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 31 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MrsM:
I took the Pope's comments regarding the sacredness of human life from conception to natural death as an urging to consider life issues in the broadest sense as opposed to associating only the abortion issue with being an advocate for life. I know that I am not the only person who sees it this way, and of course I realize that others are free to interpret what was said in ways that differ from mine.
I think that the bottom line is that our nation is in crisis and we need to turn to our Heavenly Father in prayer for the sake of the already born as well as the unborn who are being neglected and virtually abandoned by our political leaders.
That's the most I can say without getting too political, I guess.
We can be grateful for exercises in self-control, eh?
__________________
Heather
instantkiwi
Wife to Tim
Mama to Ian 2/27/00
Mama to MaryElise 7/22/08
Step-mom to Abby, Logan and Luke
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MrsM
Forum Pro
Joined: May 05 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Heather,
I agree very much with your bottom line, and maybe with your top line as well.  The Pope encourages us to look at life issues beyond abortion, absolutely. I even voted once for that rarest of breeds--a prolife member of a party that doesn't have many-- because of those other issues. Unfortunately, I've had difficulty finding a candidate who is truly part of the Culture of Life, so I am forced to make an imperfect choice, "rating" which parts of the life issue are most important to me. I really did want to know if the Pope is saying that's not the way to do it, and from his speech I discerned that he is not saying that. But I think in essentials you and I definitely agree. Certainly I agree with you that our world needs prayer desperately.
__________________
Lynn in California
Homeschooling dd13, dd11, ds10, and ds8
Mom to Miracle Baby ds3
Mom to darling Elizabeth and Francis, held in Mary's arms and always in my heart
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 5:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Part of what made me angry, is that the entire post is based on an inflammatory and not completely correct video. Everything you see about "Obama is Pro-Infanticide" is either written by or based on the testimony of this one nurse. There are no direct statements quoted from Obama or testimony from anyone else corroborating this nurses interpretation of how Obama voted. In fact, there was language in the national bill that was passed that was not in the state bill. Furthermore, IL already had a law to cover it that was passed in 1975, but it was not being enforced. Everyone acts like Obama is forcing women to abortion clinics or is an abortionist himself.
If you go to snopes.com, there are 30 rumors, urban legends, out right lies, and misrepresentations about Barack Obama that are continually sent through e-mail and people believe them, even supposedly intelligent ones. Snopes has disproved or given the fuller story on most of them. Sadly they don't even have this infanticide one on their radar yet (although they do post ones that they are still researching). Do you know how many are in the John McCain file? Five.
So then we have people not only posting what the Popes have said about choosing a candidate (which would be strictly informational) but implying that the Popes meant only professed pro-life candidates are permissible. Then it comes down to if a candidate is pro-choice then nothing else they does matters.
If you went to the link, the conversation about Ron Paul that was cut off by Elizabeth was nothing but complimentary and did not mention any other candidates. It was like talking about the finer points of someone you know, but it was cut off just the same because he was a politician. Again, this current post was based on a video that was made to put things in the absolute worst context and left out other parts of the story.
Let me just offer this article as the other side of the story presented by the video. If people personally feel that McCain or Obama is the better person for the job for any reason, I have no problem with that (not that anyone needs my permission). I just get really aggravated by propaganda spread about ANY candidate that is based on lies, misrepresentations, and scare tactics. And I wish people would research seemingly extreme claims before accepting them as the complete truth.
Oh, and one of the concerns about the death penalty is that there's a very good chance that more than one completely innocent person has been executed. Socioeconomic class can greatly effect a person's ability to obtain quality legal representation often leading to a higher conviction rate amongst the poor whether they were truly guilty or not.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
aussieannie
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 21 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7251
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 6:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just coming back to update one of my links earlier in the discussion because information has changed. The Life Site is a helpful site for keeping up to date with current topics related to life and elections/politics. It includes articles on candidates, running mates, etc.
__________________
Under Her Starry Mantle
Spiritual Motherhood for Priests
Blessed with 3 boys & 3 girls!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Michaela
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 6:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Barbara C. wrote:
| Part of what made me angry, |
|
|
Barbara, I am sorry that you got angry.
Every question you've asked...the hypothetical, the death penalty...everything, has sent me off to learn FOR MYSELF certainly not to convince anyone. I found a link and offered it with a "Will this help?" or "I hope this is helpful" attitude. It seemed on topic.
Political videos and commercials don't have as much weight for me as writings from Pope Benedict and our Bishops.
Your last post sent me in search again  .
I know abortions are an absolute no in the Catholic church, but never thought about your questions.
Which is of greater concern...abortion or an unjust war...death penalty or abortion...or ???
Since abortion and euthanasia have been defined by the Church as the most serious, sins prevalent in our society, what kind of reasons could possibly be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion? None of the reasons commonly suggested could even begin to be proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for such a candidate. Reasons such as the candidate’s position on war, or taxes, or the death penalty, or immigration, or a national health plan, or social security, or aids, or homosexuality, or marriage, or any similar burning societal issues of our time are simply lacking in proportionality.
from:
Do you vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates?
ETA: maybe posting what I find isn't helpful. I just get excited to find an answer.
...and, of course, share the link so anyone can read it in its entirety.
__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 7:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Coming in with moderator hat on to specifically address this and to end the direction this thread has taken.
Barbara C. wrote:
| To be honest I am really surprised that that this discussion has been allowed to continue not only as long as it has but at all. Considering this topic on Ron Paul was shut down after two responses by Elizabeth, and it was a much milder discussion. Maybe she never got around to officially changing the rules, but she makes it clear that political discussion are a no-no. |
|
|
To clarify any confusion there might be regarding the Ron Paul topic you linked and board policy, that discussion happened before our major regrouping in October, 2007. At the time we hashed out many challenges that the board was facing with an eye toward the future. It was during this regrouping that we came up with our current policy. So now, we get to test the policy and see if it works.
We are all mature adults and as moderators we work to give all members the benefit of the doubt that they will be responsible, use good judgment, and follow guidelines in posting. We are all capable of that. Only when that seems to be blatantly disregarded, is there a need to "stop" the discussion by closing a thread - definitely a last resort. Redirection and seeking cooperation in that from members are preferred.
So here again is the policy:
Quote:
| Be cautious when posting about political concerns. In general, it is acceptable to post political notices and bulletins to keep members informed. It is unacceptable to debate party politics which is beyond the purview and expertise of the moderators. Debates of this type should be done privately. |
|
|
This policy does not prohibit discussion of political concerns. It states that it is acceptable to post information (so long as it would not be contrary to the faith or against church teaching which is a guideline for all postings). Though not explicitly stated (and probably should be added), any political posting should directly relate to our mission of homeschooling or to our Faith, which are the foundations of this board. What is beyond the board’s ability to moderate, and therefore not acceptable, is debate of party politics and when it gets personal.
Though specific candidates were mentioned and linked in this thread the first attempt was to steer discussion away from the specific candidates and toward a more general discussion of life as a foundational issue and our civic role as Catholics/Christians in the public square.
Angie’s post clearly stated the words of the two most recent popes that indicate the primacy of life as a fundamental right and foundational issue, before all other rights and issues. That clarifies our position as a Catholic board. That kind of discussion is very much a part of our mission as a Catholic board.
It would appear at this point that the discussion has overstepped the bounds of the policy and we ask that discussion in this direction be taken privately if parties are mutually inclined to continue discussion. Further discussion in the forum in this direction is against the stated policy.
I was hopeful that with a call to prayer earlier in the thread, we could redirect our energy to prayer and of course to continued personal reflection and efforts to educate ourselves on being faithful citizens in these challenging times. Let us continue in that direction.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elena
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 13 2006
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 592
|
| Posted: Aug 19 2008 at 8:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just a little FYI, Jill Stanek (the Illinois nurse) has a very informative blog and blogs frequently about life issues and politics. I find her to be a very brave and articulate defender of life. Her blog is here.
__________________
Elena
Wife to Peter, mom of many!
My Domestic Church
One Day at a Time
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hsmom
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 24 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
|
| Posted: Aug 20 2008 at 7:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Barbara C. wrote:
So then we have people not only posting what the Popes have said about choosing a candidate (which would be strictly informational) but implying that the Popes meant only professed pro-life candidates are permissible. Then it comes down to if a candidate is pro-choice then nothing else they does matters. |
|
|
Actually it is my understanding that if the candidate has the power to effect policies regarding life then yes we vote for the pro-life candidate, but that if a candidate does not have such power then no we don't have that obligation, such as, a county sheriff or board of education committee member candidate, etc. I don't have the same expertise as many of the other ladies here. If memory serves me correctly I read that about 10 years ago.
Have a blessed day, Valerie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Is it ok to get political here? (
