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Bridget
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| Posted: Oct 27 2005 at 11:10am | IP Logged
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I fall asleep in the nursing position with my arm around the baby. When the baby is on the outside I do become a bedhog and sleep in the middle of the bed so there is extra room on that side. If I can't sleep like that I will put the baby in the crib.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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MaryM
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| Posted: Oct 27 2005 at 11:17am | IP Logged
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Our bodies are wonderfully and gloriously created. I find it totally amazing how God has in His wisdom created such complex yet simple ways that our body works. I love that on this forum I can have the opportunity to bring GOd into the discussion, since in many of my breastfeeding audiences I can't.
In the normal functioning body system nothing happens by chance. Why would it be that the stimulation of frequent suckling would cause a state of temporary infertility? God has a plan and a purpose for all His creation and that includes the way our fertility operates.
Why would decreased fertility of the mother be advantageous to a human baby - so that he or she could have the nutritional, comfort, health, safety needs met for a sustained period. Sheila Kippley stresses that delayed fertility return is a side-effect of ecological breastfeeding and not the purpose of it. Breastfeeding in this way is promoted because it is advantageous to baby (and to mother, too!). It has always been a part of God's design, but research is continuing to "discover" the benefits to exclusive breastfeeding, nursing on cue, breastfeeding beyond the baby stage - advantages that extend to both mother and child.
Babies now are just like babies were when God first created them - they have the same needs. It’s funny that “ecological breastfeeding” has to have a name now to distinquish it from the type of cultural breastfeeding that is most commmon – in history what we call "ecological" breastfeeding would just have been “normal” breastfeeding. I breastfed my babies "ecologically" because it is what came naturally and met all our needs. It just made sense. My infertility tended to be on the longer side (18-19 months).
teachingmyown wrote:
| My last five (including the one I am carrying) were conceived while I was breastfeeding. So in that regard, I guess ecological breastfeeding doesn't "work" for me. |
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I would actually say that it does "work" for you. All that ecological breastfeeding does is delay the return of fertility - the infertility doesn't usually continue through the entire course of extended breastfeeding -just part way. So women do conceive while ecologically breastfeeding, it just isn't at 3 months postpartum. If a woman isn't breastfeeding her fertility would normally return at around 6 weeks. With a more culutural-norm type of breastfeeding it would return in a few months. If we look at the averages for onset of fertility return while ecologically breastfeeding the average is around 14 months. Since that is the “average” the actual return for any given woman will fall in a range shorter than that and longer than that. There are those rare cases where women who are ecologically breastfeeding do have a return of fertility earlier than 6 months as there will be those that go for several years. They are the extremes not the norms. For most who do have a return of fertility before 6 months it actually turns out that the babies were breastfeeding but not meeting the criteria for lactational amenorrhea (CCLI is a good resources for the criteria) - not truly "ecologically" breastfeeding.
Laura wrote:
| NFP doesn't work while nursing and we don't use artificial bc so he spends the entire time a bit stressed. |
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Signs of fertility are more challenging to detect while breastfeeding, especially before one is more experienced with the nursing/fertility awareness signs, but they are there and can be detected. There are resources out there that help in being aware of the signs of returning fertility while breastfeeding for anyone interested.
Well, I could spout on forever but better close for now.
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Erica Sanchez
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MaryM wrote:
| If we look at the averages for onset of fertility return while ecologically breastfeeding the average is around 14 months. Since that is the “average” the actual return for any given woman will fall in a range shorter than that and longer than that. |
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This would be me! On the shorter side! My cycle returned at two months after 5th baby even with ecological breastfeeding. AAARRRGGGHHH! My fertility comes back earlier with each baby. Go figure! But, I do have to say my cycles were very regular when they did return which made charting during those many breastfeeding months much easier.
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Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Laura
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| Posted: Oct 27 2005 at 12:19pm | IP Logged
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Erica,
Did you happen to notice if when your cycles returned early that those babies were the ones who slept through the night?
Naomi nurses at around 10:30ishpm and then does not wake up to nurse again until 5:00am! The sleep is great, but I have always heard and read that it is the night time nursing that keeps our cycles from returning.
You said that your fertility comes back earlier with each baby. Go figure....I wish I could Erica! 
Mary, you wrote that we can see the signs of returning fertility if we are experienced. I must confess that I should be experienced, but I am somewhat of a lazy NFPer. That is why my husband wants me to look into the LadyComp from Germany that is approved by the Church once my menses return.
I enjoyed reading your post very much Mary. Thanks for chiming in!
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Laura
wife to Ken and mom to 8 blessings with #9 due July 26,2009
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Erica Sanchez
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Laura,
Each baby has been nursed more and longer, sleeps less and takes a lot longer to sleep through the night than the previous baby. Annie, #5, was in our bed most nights, nursed during the night, and still woke for nighttime feedings well into her 1st year. She's the one my cycle returned at 2 months! I really don't know how to explain it! The longest return of fertility I've had was 4 months. I think it could just be that the way I nursed my first was the opposite of ecological nursing and maybe that just "set" my whole system/cycle to "short". And maybe like Mary said, I don't quite meet the criteria for ecological nursing. Anyway, it really ends up being a blessing that I can chart my cycles during breastfeeding...or maybe God is trying to tell us to have more babies closer together...better pray about that one!
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Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Willa
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Brenda,
we use a bedrail so the baby doesn't fall when he's on that side.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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MaryM
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I'm jumping in again a bit later than I meant to. Knew I needed a prolonged time to get some resources to together.
Since there seemed to be a couple questions aobut the variations in fertility return I wanted to addres some of the aspects of ecological breastfeeding. Sheila Kippley has developed, from her experience and research, Seven Standards that are necessary to promote the frequent nursing needed for natural infertility to be prolonged.
The Seven Standards are:
1. Do exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of life; don't use other liquids and solids.
2. Pacify the baby at the breast.
3. Don't use bottles and pacifiers.
4. Sleep with the baby for night feedings.
5. Sleep with the baby for a daily-nap feeding.
6. Nurse frequently day and night, and avoid schedules.
7. Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates mom and baby.
She indicates that anytime that a baby is down to 6-7 nursings in a 24 hour period or is regularly sleeping longer than a 4 hour stretch then the likelihood of fertility return increases.
The thing is that for each woman the amount of sucking stimulation her body needs to sustain the infertile phase varies. That's why there are cases where a woman doesn't follow all the "seven standards" and still has a long period of infertility. And on the other hand a few women may be following those basic tenets and still have early return of fertility.
Even if a mother is exclusively offering breastmilk to baby but sometimes pumping and offering it in bottles fertility usually returns more quickly. Pumping doesn't provide the same stimulation. There also seems to be an important connection to the nursing and sleeping so those nap-time feedings with mom napping also are important. That, I think, is the one of the seven standards that gets dropped after the first few weeks for many women. Not that for all women it is necessary - but possibly for some women with early return of fertility this would have made a difference.
Pacifying the baby at the breast: some may think that only means not using a pacifier - but what if you have a self-soother or thumb sucker? It's very easy for those babies to go longer times without nursing. To maintain the effect on fertility those babies need to be nursed whenever they start sucking on their hands/thumb. I know that can get hard to do, especially with subsequent children when a calm-peaceful baby content by himself can be a real blessing while you try to get something else done.
Other factors that appear to have a possible impact on the early return of fertility for some women are:
Body Balance - Height/weight ratios may affect breastfeeding infertility with it appearing that women who are closer to the norm for height/weight rations seem to come closer to the average of 14 months. This is not definitive but anecdotally has some significance.
Diet - Diet in general has an impact on fertility and so it makes sense that it still plays a role while breastfeeding. See Marilyn Shannon's work for nutrition/fertility links.
Fatigue/stress - what new mother isn't fatigued, but it may impact some more than others and it's important to look at what else is going on in the family life/activities. Again possibly why the sleeping with baby both at night and for a nap seems very significant.
A specific example of some of these factors - a friend who had pretty regular return of fertility around 16 months got a thumb sucker for her fourth baby. Add to that a stressful time selling a house and moving, her fertility returned about 7 months earlier than usual for her. That is a difference of almost half - pretty significant.
There were also some questions about detecting the return of fertility while breastfeeding and the ability to use NFP during lactation.
Ovulation rarely occurs before the return of menstruation if that return is earlier than 6 months. When menstruation returns after 6 months it is more likely to be preceded by ovulation. A lot of the stats on fertility during breastfeeding can be found at the Couple to Couple League site.
It is normal that some women will have an almost constant discharge of a less fertile mucus for months during breastfeeding, but this can be distinguished from the more fertile type preceding ovulation. It appears that the breastfeeding mother usually has a longer and more obvious mucus pattern prior to the first postpartum ovulation than she has during regular cycles, providing her with an ample indication of the return of fertility.
Many women also observe physical changes that occur in the cervical os (for example, it opens up during the fertile time). This can be particularly helpful for breastfeeding mothers, as is the internal mucous sign. Another sign for some women of impending menstruation/return of fertility is unexplained sore nipples after an extended period of problem free breastfeeding. Once menstruation resumes, temperatures and charting are recommended if trying to practice NFP. The Art of Natural Family Planning contains that information and has a chapter devoted entirely to detecting the return of fertility after childbirth, especially when breastfeeding. There are other secular books out there as well that have sections on fertility awareness while breastfeeding.
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momwise
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MaryM wrote:
| There are those rare cases where women who are ecologically breastfeeding do have a return of fertility earlier than 6 months as there will be those that go for several years. They are the extremes not the norms. For most who do have a return of fertility before 6 months it actually turns out that the babies were breastfeeding but not meeting the criteria for lactational amenorrhea (CCLI is a good resources for the criteria) - not truly "ecologically" breastfeeding. |
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I do want to sympathize with those moms who are truly living an ecological breastfeeding lifestyle and experience early return of fertility. I practiced cultural nursing with my first 4 children, weaning them anywhere from 3-10 mos. and supplenting formula and I stayed infertile the whole time. I switched to NFP and ecological nursing with the last 3 and my cycles returned at 4, 6 and 5 mos. respectively. I wrote to Sheila once and she was not sure I wasn't using a pacifier . I'm not sure about this but if early return during ecological nursing is discounted by "the experts" as not possibly being "true" ecological nursing, isn't it possible the statistics are off a little?
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momwise
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Oh, I didn't wait to read all the posts. I nursed all night long every night, well past 1 yr. old. I never pumped, I napped and put the babies to sleep while nursing them. I have looked over all the criteria again and again trying to figure it out. Like Erica I had very good, clear signs for my charts. It just looks like God had a different plan for some reason 
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amyable
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Kind of a side question here - is there a way to nap with your baby (who hates to sleep BTW  ) when you have only a "not very responsible" 7yo, a 5yo, and a 2yo who no longer naps most days?
I'm thinking I know the answer to this  but I thought I'd ask the moms who had BTDT and had just "middle/littles" with no responsible older ones to help.
I would LOVE a nap during the day since I'm up for hours at night. I honestly don't know how the baby does it!
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Erica Sanchez
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Mary,
Thanks so much for the information, especially the Seven Standards. I definitely have not met standard #5 regarding the naps with any of the babies, at least not in any consistent manner. Like Amy asks, how is this possible with older (but youngish) siblings who don't nap? And I've probably missed the mark for standard #2 as I have many thumb suckers here. Interestingly enough, baby #5 is my only non-thumb sucker who I also feel received the closest to ecological nursing of them all, but where my cycle returned the earliest!
I'm confused about the ovulation/menstruation return and which comes first. Our NFP instructor taught us that in order to have a true menstruation (versus breakthrough bleeding) ovulation must have occurred. If I recall correctly, she talked about the hormones involved - I think that the hormones from the ovulation process are what sets up mentruation ??? It made complete sense when she taught it, but I know there are conflicting teachings in this area.
Even though I don't quite meet the standards for ecological nursing, I'm very, very happy with the way nursing goes around here...and it is better and longer with each baby...baby #5 was nursed until age 2, so you never know, maybe baby #6 will be nursed even longer. 
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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momwise
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momwise wrote:
| if early return during ecological nursing is discounted by "the experts" |
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Sorry Mary...I'm not referring to you or Shiela as the experts in quotes....you are the true experts; it's a bad habit I have to refer to the secular parenting researchers.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Ecological Breastfeeding
