| Author | |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
A couple more thoughts:
I've found that one reason people bristle at the word "normalization" is because, well, what is normal? Who determines that? It implies something is wrong with kids who aren't normalized yet.
It's true, we're all unique. Montessori doesn't aim in any way to make "cookie cutter" kids; visit any Montessori school and you'll meet a wide variety of unique individuals. Some of the students I had in Montessori elementary (who had also done Montessori preschool) are among the most distinct, quirky, memorable kids I've ever met in my life.
Rather, Montessori is about helping kids become the best "me" they can be - whatever that might be. That's why we spend so much time observing, and tailoring work to kids' individual needs. That's why we "follow the child", letting them choose what work they'd like to do as often as possible.
Along the way, we gently guide them towards longer attention spans, precision in movement, and independence (which does mean learning specific skills in order to do them without help).
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
slow down - when I went to bed this thread had two posts  ! Now I am trying to catch up, and I don't have much time left.
I haven't read the responses yet - I will do so in a moment - so please forgive me if I am being redundant to an already mentioned idea....but the reason I have always stayed away from Montessori is because of the....what's teh right word? "concern?" maybe?....that others have expressed when their little ones aren't using the materials "correctly". That made me feel very off. Even if they weren't being destructive, they just weren't using them "right."
MacBeth's "behavior modification" really seemed to "sum it up" for me pretty well. (Now I have to go read that thread too  )
I think that Atrium is Montessori in practice, right? And in *that* situation, I can understand a need for materials to be handled in a certain fashion.
okay.....sorry to ramble....off to read now...
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
montessori_lori wrote:
I've found that one reason people bristle at the word "normalization" is because, well, what is normal? Who determines that? It implies something is wrong with kids who aren't normalized yet.
....
Rather, Montessori is about helping kids become the best "me" they can be - whatever that might be. |
|
|
That's what I have been getting out of the concept of "normalization". I don't much care for the word -- but I do notice the difference between a child who seems to feel comfortable in his own skin, so to speak, and one who seems to be tense, sub-consciously frustrated and not quite in balance. I had the opportunity to watch a playmate of my youngest's who spends time in daycares -- there was an undercurrent of aggression and tension in the way he played. He would pinch my son secretly, or escalate a pretend game so that someone got hurt. He didn't seem able to relax and focus. I am hoping it's a stage, but it was sad since this child is a favorite longtime playmate of Paddy's.
Personally I think that homeschooling can naturally achieve some of the same purposes as the Montessori environment. Montessori does the natural things "intentionally" and perhaps that can make a bit of difference.... helping the adults slow down and think about what the activity means to the child's development.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Personally I think that homeschooling can naturally achieve some of the same purposes as the Montessori environment. Montessori does the natural things "intentionally" and perhaps that can make a bit of difference.... helping the adults slow down and think about what the activity means to the child's development.
Yes, there are many similarities, which is why Montessori fits in so nicely with homeschooling. Good thoughts!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am no purist, but I do appreciate and use Montessori methods in my home. And-Wow! I am glad I read through this entire thread before commenting or the tone of this comment would have been much more heated. Thankfully it looks like many of the misconceptions regarding Montessori have been addressed already and very well.
I will hold my rant for now.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am interested in your thoughts, Theresa! Yours is one blog I always refer to when people want to know if Montessori can work in the home :)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
I am no purist, but I do appreciate and use Montessori methods in my home. And-Wow! I am glad I read through this entire thread before commenting or the tone of this comment would have been much more heated. Thankfully it looks like many of the misconceptions regarding Montessori have been addressed already and very well.
I will hold my rant for now.
|
|
|
okay - I was half-thru the thread and I have a big ol' response in another window...and I was going to post but now I saw this and guess I should plow through the rest before I do!
Or maybe I should just accept that I am one of "those adults who don't get it" and try really hard not to be offended at how that comment sounded....
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary G wrote:
I guess where I'm coming from ... and I think I'll start a new thread on this ... is the difference between fitting a school-system (whether it's old-style Catholic school, public school, MM, CM or Waldorf), a system that was created and works in a school-setting ... fitting one of those into my home or allowing myself and my children to see what works best in our setting and doing that ... |
|
|
Oh, I hope you do start that thread!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Crud. I had a whole thing written and I hit the wrong button and it disappeared.
Well, the gist of it is this:
I am bothered by the fact that despite the fact that Mont education is ALL ABOUT observing the child and meeting his/her needs it is still seen as coercive or controlling.
I am bothered that the trays of pouring/scooping/spooning activities are derided as "artificial" when I see my kids choosing them over and over-of their own free will- and enjoying them. This is DESPITE the fact that they have plenty of opportunities to pour/scoop/stir in real-life context. Obviously my kiddos WANT to pour/scoop/spoon/tweeze and I offer them the opportunity to do so to their little heart's content. MUCH more so that I could offer them in real life--we only cook so many meals per day, you know? So why is it wrong or "contrived" to offer them the opportunity to do more of what they need and love? And if the benefit is that next time we make cookies my child can pour the chocolate chips into the bowl without spilling them, and gets a big proud smile on his face for doing it so well, then great!
I am bothered that folks insist that taking away a material because it is not used properly is somehow wrong or controlling. It's not about the materials or control. It is about the child and his/her needs. If the child is not using the material "correctly" then obviously it is not meeting the need I thought it was and I need to offer something that WILL meet his needs and save that other material for another time when it DOES meet his/her needs. In other words, I need to re-evaluate what I thought I knew about my child. I need to observe more closely. The child wasn't wrong---I WAS.
But...
It also bothers me that Montessori purists will sometimes forget that it is about the child and not the materials or the presentations.
JUST as with ANY educational system, Montessorians run the risk of putting the system ahead of the child when they let expectations dictate what happens, rather than the reality of their particular home, that particular child, and his particular needs.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
Or maybe I should just accept that I am one of "those adults who don't get it" and try really hard not to be offended |
|
|
Laura, you mentioned earlier that your concern with Montessori was the
Quote:
| "concern?" maybe?....that others have expressed when their little ones aren't using the materials "correctly". That made me feel very off. Even if they weren't being destructive, they just weren't using them "right." |
|
|
I think this is a valid concern, and is probably the "dark side" to the intentionality I was trying to describe as a possible virtue of Montessori's prepared environment.
I am a Montessori "outsider" (I don't really understand the method and have never spent the $$$ on the materials though I've gotten something out of some of the ideas).
From what I've seen though, discipline in the adults is important. To use Catholic terminology, there is a golden mean between the two extremes. As a Montessori practitioner, you want to use the materials intentionally for goals that you think are valuable developmentally, but you don't want to get so locked-in on the materials and their use that you forget that it's the child who you are teaching.
If a teacher gets frustrated with a child because he isn't doing things "right", the child will pick up on it. The atmosphere that a teacher sets, particularly in a school, is so important and makes such a huge difference. So I think there is a discipline that Montessorians have to practice.... the adults have to be very disciplined and restrained in keeping the child first and foremost.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
But...
It also bothers me that Montessori purists will sometimes forget that it is about the child and not the materials or the presentations.
|
|
|
okay, I think this could be an example of what throws me with it. I totally agree with the notion of kids wanting to, say stir and pour more than I am able to provide in a real life setting - so setting up an area in which they can do so (and do so "correctly" as in pour in the buckets and not all over the floor, etc. ) is that right?
But - can't I use any old "pourer"? And any old bucket?
I get the impression - from purists, I suppose - that I should be using a particular "pourer", etc.
I am really enjoying this thread, I am finding it very thought provoking, thank you all for your thoughts!!!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree with what you've said, Theresa. There are misconceptions both within and without the Montessori community, and overly zealous Montessorians (or the ones who practice it incorrectly, as you mention) can give everyone a bad name.
So much of it is personal preference and comfort level. I personally don't "get" Waldorf, even though I have read about it and know people who use it, but I wouldn't presume to question what people who do Waldorf say about how it works. Why would I not believe them?
So when experienced Montessorians say that yes, kids are encouraged to be independent and make their own choices, and that Montessori isn't stifling in any way, it would be nice for people to believe us. Or, at least seek out proof one way or the other rather than just going on personal feelings.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Theresa's post made me think of this:
I guess I just never saw the word normalization as really negative. Like Theresa's example of her children *better* being able to help scoop and pour in real life because they got to practice, well, its kind of an important skill both practically and even socially to be able to eat and prepare food without making a mess. (Not sure I ever mastered that one myself ).
I would imagine that it isn't *necessary* to present Montessori materials for children to learn this (obviously it isn't, lol), but the question is really, is it *edifying.* It seems that it is. It seems that children do thrive on these activities where there are parents and/or teachers willing to provide them.
Many beautiful artists, saints, and good people came from homes that never had a book, let alone spent x amount of time per day reading picture books or any number of other "educational" materials that are not really questioned. Would they have benefited from a home with beautiful books? I like to think so.
I have not yet acquired the discipline in preparing materials or trays for my children, but I can certainly see how it could bring wonderful satisfaction to a child to be given the opportunities to more quickly be able to do "normal adult" things and acquire disciplines of concentration, attention, and fine motor skills.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
missionfamily
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 10 2007
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1859
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think the questions and concerns raised and the answers provided have been very enlightening. I already expounded soooo much on what I wasn't getting and it has finally come together for me.
Now I can see that if my Evan loves to scoop, pour, and stir in the kitchen, by all means he should.
And if in his free play he loves to stand in a wading pool full of rice and scoop and pour and twist and turn with few limitations by all means he should.
And if during our table time I present him with a special tray and a special scoop and encourage him to pursue pouring and scooping and tweezing in a specific capacity in order to improve concentration and fine motor skills and make him better at the same activities in his kitchen and free play time, that has a benefit all its own.
If during that time he does not wish to pour and scoop in the controlled way, it is his way of letting me know that's not on his radar right now and I would better serve his needs by presenting him with something else to do.
AM I GETTING IT?
So it is to some extent about behavior modification...much the same way we don't let our kids rip the pages out of books or break crayons just because they feel like it. Those items have a clear purpose and misuse is not allowed. We should modify inappropriate behavior, and if the environment is key to montessori education than proper treatment of that environment must be taught to the child.
If "normalizing" means I tell a three year old "We can stand on the rice and smash it in the pool outside, but at our table, we pour the rice correctly or we must put it away"---that makes sense to me.
Okay, my 30 month old wants to fold the jeans, and I'm not sure how to finish this thought except to say that I think my misconceptions were what had me bristling at the idea and my original plea which was to honestly get past it if that was the case has been answered. THank you for this discussion, ladies.
__________________
Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
Footprints on the Fridge
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
missionfamily wrote:
I think the questions and concerns raised and the answers provided have been very enlightening. I already expounded soooo much on what I wasn't getting and it has finally come together for me.
Now I can see that if my Evan loves to scoop, pour, and stir in the kitchen, by all means he should.
And if in his free play he loves to stand in a wading pool full of rice and scoop and pour and twist and turn with few limitations by all means he should.
And if during our table time I present him with a special tray and a special scoop and encourage him to pursue pouring and scooping and tweezing in a specific capacity in order to improve concentration and fine motor skills and make him better at the same activities in his kitchen and free play time, that has a benefit all its own.
If during that time he does not wish to pour and scoop in the controlled way, it is his way of letting me know that's not on his radar right now and I would better serve his needs by presenting him with something else to do.
AM I GETTING IT?
So it is to some extent about behavior modification...much the same way we don't let our kids rip the pages out of books or break crayons just because they feel like it. Those items have a clear purpose and misuse is not allowed. We should modify inappropriate behavior, and if the environment is key to montessori education than proper treatment of that environment must be taught to the child.
If "normalizing" means I tell a three year old "We can stand on the rice and smash it in the pool outside, but at our table, we pour the rice correctly or we must put it away"---that makes sense to me.
Okay, my 30 month old wants to fold the jeans, and I'm not sure how to finish this thought except to say that I think my misconceptions were what had me bristling at the idea and my original plea which was to honestly get past it if that was the case has been answered. THank you for this discussion, ladies. |
|
|
YES!YES!YES! You got it!!!!!
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I get the impression - from purists, I suppose - that I should be using a particular "pourer", etc.
But, this isn't a bad thing at all. Let's say that a 2-year old wants to pour. You tell them to grab any old thing, and they get a huge pitcher that's way too big for them and end up spilling the water. They find that frustrating and never want to pour again - this would be my daughter, right here :)
Or, let's say that you've got a toddler-sized pouring work ready to go, with a toddler-sized pitcher and a tray to catch spills and a sponge. After a quick presentation from you, they pour and pour, able to manage the pitcher without much difficulty, and clean up after themselves with the sponge.
It's not about the teacher controlling the child - it's about being intentional in your choice of materials, paying attention to where the child is at developmentally. It actually shows, on your part, a huge amount of respect for the child and asks you to put some thought and time into preparing the work.
The end result is that the child has a better, more meaningful experience because you've put some thought into the pouring work, rather than just grabbing any old pourer.
The is how early education works, isn't it? We are always trying to match the child's activities - whether physical, mental, or spiritual - to that "sweet spot" where they are challenged a little but it's not so difficult as to be frustrating.
What Montessori did was a ton of observation, then recording of her findings, so that we can use that as a springboard to tailor work for children based on where they're at.
When you do hit that "sweet spot" with the activities you give your kids, they flourish.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:14pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Yes, Colleen!
And, Laura you're right that any scoop and bucket can be used. I do think in Montessori there is an emphasis on beauty so that I might try to choose something lovely for the children to scoop and pour into. No need for this to be expensive or something that is ordered out of a Montessori catalog though. It simply needs to be attractive to the child.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:14pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
missionfamily wrote:
So it is to some extent about behavior modification...much the same way we don't let our kids rip the pages out of books or break crayons just because they feel like it. Those items have a clear purpose and misuse is not allowed. |
|
|
Oh, see, this makes tons of sense when said like that! That I 'get' completely.
missionfamily wrote:
| if the environment is key to montessori education than proper treatment of that environment must be taught to the child. |
|
|
So....that makes me wonder then...I can see how that would work in a Montessori Classroom - where the whole environment is geared in a certain way, with certain purposes....
How does that play out in the home, especially if you have many varying ages from tots to teens and no "classroom" space? Are the trays themselves the "environment"?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
But - can't I use any old "pourer"? And any old bucket?
I get the impression - from purists, I suppose - that I should be using a particular "pourer", etc.
|
|
|
Well, seing as I got all myn pouring stuff from yard sales and thrift stores, I may be the wrong one to ask, but...
I think you CAN use any old pourer and any old bucket. They certainly will work just as well. The ideal, though, would be to use something beautiful and made of natural materials if at all possible, because like adults, children are attracted to beauty and nature. They are a joy to look at and feel good in the hand. There is also benefit in using materials that are very similar to what an adult would use, but child-sized.
Hope that helps.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Aug 08 2008 at 3:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
montessori_lori wrote:
It's not about the teacher controlling the child - it's about being intentional in your choice of materials, paying attention to where the child is at developmentally. It actually shows, on your part, a huge amount of respect for the child and asks you to put some thought and time into preparing the work.
The end result is that the child has a better, more meaningful experience because you've put some thought into the pouring work, rather than just grabbing any old pourer.
|
|
|
Yes! This is what I meant to say!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: What is Normalization?
