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LisaR
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 1:29pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
I'm sorry I said anything. Really. Nevermind. I am guessing this wasn't the place for this kind of discussion. So please just disregard.
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I think this was just the place and I have so enjoyed the discussion!! thanks especially for all of those who posed questions, and Sally, your musings have come so very very close to what I kept phrasing in my mind, while out and about at football, soccer, etc, then I would come home and you had posted! yeah!! so ditto to sally, and this is one of my favorite subjects, I've enjoyed it!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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SallyT
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 2:41pm | IP Logged
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I've enjoyed the discussion, too, and Laura, I'm glad you raised the questions you did. I think perhaps one answer lies in that God, being God, can act redemptively in response to sin (which of course doesn't touch Him in any way, only the sinner/s). Also, while a procreative act may take place in a sinful manner, the act itself is still objectively procreative, with an objectively good result, the same result which would naturally proceed from any procreative act in any setting. That's why, among other things, a child conceived from rape has as much right not to be aborted as any other child -- and I know Laura wasn't arguing otherwise in any way!
Also, we all know that God uses sufferings, trials, and sacrifices in ways that may be redemptive either personally, to the sufferer, or on a more general scale, so it doesn't seem inconsistent to me that God could simultaneously abhor a sexual sin and want good fruit to come of it. In one sense, that dynamic is the whole story of salvation: God's abhorring the disobedience of Adam and Eve, though it's that very disobedience which sets in motion the entire history which would culminate in Christ. So it seems to me that the kind of scenario Laura is positing is a kind of micro version of that playing-out of events.
I mean, that's all sort of academic, and I'm sure the hypothetical raped girl would not be saying to herself, "Wow, this is like really iconic." But we would not have the Root of Jesse without the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and all that took place under its branches, and I think that that maybe gives us a way to begin to think about these questions.
Sally
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Willa
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 2:49pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
I fail to understand how one can say all children are a blessing and in the next breathe say some really weren't wanted by God. 
Again. The lack of appreciation of the parent does not change the value of the gift that's given. |
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If it's any help, perhaps we can just say this is a given? I am pretty sure we are all agreed here.
There are no unwanted children to God. No one is less precious to Him because of circumstances.
There IS sin. God does not will it actively. He does make good come from evil. Good is more powerful than evil. ... it is positive, while evil is negative -- an absence or privation of good.
Let's say someone was murdered -- to make it clearer, let's say Nero martyred a bunch of Christians.
Nero is a foul murderer. Nature takes its course. (God sometimes intercedes and allows the martyr to survive, but often lets nature take its course). The martyrs die, very painfully. They go straight to heaven and win many crowns of glory, and forever after in history are powerful intercessors for countless people. Nero is d*mned and if he does not repent, goes to eternal fire.
The sinner is responsible for his sin. God is responsible for all the good that follows from it. The good is no less good and powerful because it flowered from evil, but the evil is no less horrible because good came out of it.
God does that all the time. You can hardly think of a bad thing that can happen that He does not turn to good. In fact, He has promised this, and it is very consoling to me.
A baby considered in itself is always good. Just like the entrance into heaven of a new soul is always good (the analogy is not total, but just to try to illustrate the point). The circumstances may not have been good. OR they may have been. There are many holy, chaste conceptions just like there are many holy deaths surrounded by all good things. (I know, I know, it's not a perfect comparison!).
There are virtuos circumstances for conception. There are sinful circumstances. Either way, the baby is good. The sin itself isn't redeemed by the good result, any more than Nero or Hitler get lighter treatment because their atrocities resulted in many glorious Christian deeds and in heaven for some of their victims.
I am probably way over-simplifying, but I wanted to emphasize the point that you can sin and a baby can result. Not all acts that lead to babies are good, but the baby itself is always good no matter what.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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SallyT wrote:
| But we would not have the Root of Jesse without the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and all that took place under its branches, and I think that that maybe gives us a way to begin to think about these questions. |
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I was crossposting with you, Sally.
What you said there reminded me of the liturgy "oh happy fault, that gave the world so great a Redeemer!"
I wondered very much about that when I was first converted and came across it, but have come to understand better how much more powerful and awe-ful is the Good than the Evil. (there is something wrong with that sentence but I am not sure how to fix it right now). It's still a mystery to me, but a thought-provoking one.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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SallyT
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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I like your illustrations, Willa. And you've said much more clearly what I was trying to say. I didn't mean that the child redeemed the sin of the parents, just that . . . well, what you said, really.
Thanks,
Sally
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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I have really appreciated this discussion, ladies. The Happy Fall has always been a mystery to me, and I have learned a lot from the fleshing out that is going on here.
This recent talk about separating the sinful act of rape from the baby that results prompted me to post about an IVF-related issue that I am having trouble thinking through--if you're interested in helping me out. 
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Celeste
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Mommy to six: three boys (8, 4, newborn) and four girls (7, 5, 2, and 1)
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SallyT
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| Posted: June 05 2008 at 4:50pm | IP Logged
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Just by way of seeking illumination, I took some time today to reread Contraception and Chastity by one of my great Catholic heroines, Elizabeth Anscombe, philosopher and Catholic wife and mother of seven. She wrote this essay in, I think, 1975, as a way of elucidating the teaching expounded in Humana Vitae, and it's just brilliant, I think. It's 16 pages, so if you (meaning anyone in general) want to read it you might to print it out. She has a philosopher's mind and writes from it, but very engagingly and accessibly. Along the way she makes some very good points about the licitness of NFP, which may be of interest.
Celeste, she might in an indirect way speak to the IVF question, too, though the technology wasn't there when she wrote the essay.
Sally
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Martha
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| Posted: June 07 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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dispensationalism! that's the word for it, probably spelled wrong.
Quote:
oh, ouch. I don't think I ever said that a child is less wanted by God.
Again, I never said that some "weren't wanted by God."
ouch, again.
I did say I was trying to logically work through it.
And it does seem to follow, that if the parents in some given situations had not sinned, a child could not have resulted. Since God NEVER desires for us to sin....and here is where I run into a problem, I run into trouble in my own mind trying to work it out. So, I asked for help to try to better grasp it.[/qoute]
My post wasn't against you personally in any way. I too was trying to understand this concept brought forward, but I had and have no intention of attacking you or anyone else. Sorry if it came across otherwise.
My understanding of permissive will is that it strictly applies to mankind's ability to have freewill and NOTHING ELSE. We have the ability to choose right or wrong. But creation is purposely done by God. He is always working for our benefit.
Quote:
| But - is it heretical to think that God set things up to work a certain way, and that they actually do work in the way that He designed them too? |
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Which is the loving act of a father in heaven? A father that permits tragedy? Or a father that purposely creates for the good of his children, to build them up into souls that can enter heaven?
Let's say a terrible tornado comes and destroys a family home. They could say God abandoned them and permitted this tragedy He could have avoided. The neighbor across the street could say they are better christians because God sparred their home because they didn't sin as much as the couple next door.
I don't think either are right. I think our Father in heaven loves us as we should love our children. We don't make everything easy for them. Sometimes we cry knowing they are just going to have to suffer to become better people. Sufferring is our chance to use those beatitudes! Maybe for some people, our Father in heaven has decided there's no better lesson in how to love someone and be loved than to be loved by an infant born out of a situation where love was so totally absent?
I just cannot accept that my God is simply allowing yet another tragedy to befall a woman that's been raped or whatever.
Anymore than I can believe my god is simply allowing a family to suffer if their home is destroyed or a spouse gets cancer or any other terrible event. I prefer to look at them as God giving us all very unworthy people a chance to see Him. I once heard someone say God brings us to our knees because for many it's the only way He can get them to look up and see Him.
[quote]I'm sorry I said anything. Really. Nevermind. I am guessing this wasn't the place for this kind of discussion. So please just disregard. |
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You souldn't be sorry for anything you said. it didn't offend me. I was one of those babies that many would say God only "permitted" to exist. My mother used to say all the time that she knew God wanted me because she sure as h*** didn't. Much as it hurt at the time - I think she was right. It's not His fault she didn't appreciate it. 
ug. I have no idea why the quotes came out wrong. hope it's somewhat readable and please do not take anything I have written as a personal attack because I have zero desire to do that.
I think I too will leave this subject for now. it's gotten rather off topic anyways. 
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Yes, they're all ours!
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: QuiverFull = Catholic??
