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MaryM
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It is worth a read - thanks Red.
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SusanMc
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I would profer that the major difference between quiverful and a Catholic approach to marital fertility is the concept of discernment. As I understand it in Quiverful theology basically refrains from all fertility controlling/monitoring methods because they believe it is only for God to decide when children (and how many) should be brought into a marriage.
Catholic teaching differs in that you are called to discern how to align your will with God's will when making decisions about NFP. For some, this may mean discarding all birth control AND NFP and for others it may mean spacing or avoiding pregnancy with NFP. Either way, the couple is an active participant in the process via their day to day choices.
In my opinion this small but important difference is what makes posponing pregnancy due to severe health issues licit while still following the teaching to the letter. Discernment (which assumes proper and ongoing development of the well formed conscious) is a hallmark of Catholic ethics.
So from the outside a quiverful and a large Catholic family may appear and even at times sound like they are doing the same thing, if you look at the underlying spirituality and theology it isn't necessarily so.
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Elizabeth
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The article Red Cardigan linked is the one discussed in detail in the first thread that Jennifer linked.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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chicken lady
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This is a VERY serious thread to me, it has woken me in the night. I would prayerfully suggest folks to read the link that has been posted here (twice) and not fall into modern theology and moral relativism. This is a serious evil we are discussing. I know folks on this board think I am ultra conservative, and easily dismiss me, but this is very serious and I will defend the church teaching. I see several "moderators" do not agree with this teaching, in good conscience I will not let this one go.
I am sorry if the truth offends, that is not my intention, Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
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LisaR
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chicken lady wrote:
I will defend the church teaching. I see several "moderators" do not agree with this teaching, in good conscience I will not let this one go.
I am sorry if the truth offends, that is not my intention, Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. |
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are you talking about the encyclicals Willa referred to? the Church's teaching about what constitutes serious reason? I am probably blissfully unaware, but I like to give the mod's the benefit of the doubt and from what little I know of them on this very public forum, not a single one has given me pause that they do not follow Church teaching on this aspect.
I agree that we should not let "something go" if it is scandalously leading others away from the Truth.
I also know that it is very important to note that when in doubt, we should not look to a certain conservative Priest, or certain religious or secular organizations for the Truth, this would be a "cafeteria catholic" approach.
turning to encyclicals and official Church teaching in it's entirety is the first and best step!!
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Lisbet
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I'm assuming she is referring to the article linked by Red Cardigan and the comment that Catholics couples are premitted to use NFP as freely as they wish to plan or avoid children. (which is NOT entirely true to Church teaching, btw, even if CCLI says so...)
I'm not sure about the mod part. The threads linked by Jennifer go into this much more.
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missionfamily
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Because this discussion initiated with a very honest and sincere desire for a new Catholic to better understand the truth, I think we would do the very best thing for her by recommending references to the Catechism and Papal Encyclicals and eltting them be her teacher. Any concerns she has further would best be submitted by she and her spouse a holy priest.
Molly-I love you and never dismiss your thoughts. Your brave and courageous example of openness to life is a beautiful testament to faith.
The links to discussions and CCL and other articles are great reading for someone working through this topic, but I worry that we are overwhelming dear Vanna who is trying to piece together a very complex issue in innocence and sincerity.
All that said, I do not have time to find the links for these encyclicals right now or to quote extensively.
I just humbly submit that we would do our sister the most good by directing her to the Magesterium and the guidance of a holy priest rather than overwhelming her with a really long thread here. Clearly, there is much to be said on this topic, but I don't know that we are doing Vanna any good by saying it ALL RIGHT NOW.
I hope you all understand the heart of what I'm saying it even if I'm not articulating it well.
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Willa
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missionfamily wrote:
Because this discussion initiated with a very honest and sincere desire for a new Catholic to better understand the truth, I think we would do the very best thing for her by recommending references to the Catechism and Papal Encyclicals and eltting them be her teacher. Any concerns she has further would best be submitted by she and her spouse a holy priest.
Molly-I love you and never dismiss your thoughts. Your brave and courageous example of openness to life is a beautiful testament to faith. |
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Yep, I agree, totally!
Elizabeth already linked to the past thread where we discussed Thomas Storck's article intensively. His position is one Catholic theologian's view and does not represent the Magisterium. There is definitely room for theological discussion, and this was what Thomas Storck was attempting in his article, I think.
The Catechism and papal encyclicals express the essentials of the Catholic Church's teaching on the subject, what has been established as true doctrine, and this is the "gold standard".
Let's keep this thread focused on the honest questions asked by a new convert about how to better understand and live her life as a Catholic.
(To find out more about the role of the theologian in the Church, there is this
Instruction on the ecclesia vocation of the theologian. A quote:
Quote:
Theology's proper task is to understand the meaning of revelation and this, therefore, requires the utilization of philosophical concepts which provide "a solid and correct understanding of man, the world, and God" (6) and can be employed in a reflection upon revealed doctrine. The historical disciplines are likewise necessary for the theologian's investigations. This is due chiefly to the historical character of revelation itself which has been communicated to us in "salvation history". Finally, a consultation of the "human sciences" is also necessary to understand better the revealed truth about man and the moral norms for his conduct, setting these in relation to the sound findings of such sciences.
Here it is important to emphasize that when theology employs the elements and conceptual tools of philosophy or other disciplines, discernment is needed. The ultimate normative principle for such discernment is revealed doctrine which itself must furnish the criteria for the evaluation of these elements and conceptual tools and not vice versa. |
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LisaR
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Lisbet wrote:
I'm assuming she is referring to the article linked by Red Cardigan and the comment that Catholics couples are premitted to use NFP as freely as they wish to plan or avoid children. (which is NOT entirely true to Church teaching, btw, even if CCLI says so...)
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this article from Red is from homeletic and pastoral review, NOT CCLI, just for correction, right,???
unless am I missing something? I have scoured CCLI and find nice directives pointing one to the Church teaching through Magisterium, Encyclicals, etc.
Vanna, sorry if this veered off from the support that you were looking for. I am very glad that you posed your question. Please know that I and I'm sure many others are praying for you and your dh in this regard.
Also, the wonderful thing about God's grace is that we are always able to change and grow closer to Him.
Praying with you as you seek His will in your life.
Peace of Christ,
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Sarah M
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I apologize that my words were offensive- that was certainly not my intention. I was trying to delicately say that not all holy Catholic families have as many children as possible. That's all.
I readily admit that I am not an expert on this issue, and I recognize that all of us here want to answer God's call on our lives, and live holy lives that are most pleasing to Him.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation now, because I sincerely regret contributing to the emotional charge of this thread, and because I think several links have been made available that will help anyone contemplating this issue read, discern, and pray over this part of God's will in our families.
Vanna- I will be praying for you as you discern God's call for you and your husband.
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Red Cardigan
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I didn't realize the Storck article had been so extensively discussed already--I've missed a few threads.  Sorry!
But to me the important consideration is the simple fact that the word iustae is NOT correctly translated "grave" or even "serious," but "just."
Why is this important? Well, I've heard well-meaning Catholics say "You should only use NFP for grave reasons--so if having another child isn't going to put you in your grave..." which is clearly a dangerous misinterpretation.
I think most Catholics can agree that shorter times of "spacing" do not require the same gravity of reason that a longer or even permanent avoidance of children would require. But thinking that all Catholic parents must be actively trying to conceive in the absence of severe physical or devastating financial problems is to place a burden on ourselves much heavier than God, through His Church, places on us.
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Helen
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Dear Vanna,
I’m really impressed by your question. I think it is beautiful to see you looking for a true, Catholic interpretation to the question of openness to life. Today, it is hard to know what openness to life means. This is especially true in our culture which not only throws away fertility but even has the audacity to eradicate the fruit of fertility. Thank God for the Church! She is our Mother and can guide us through these murky waters we all have to tread.
I hope you will find some answers to your question. It is essential that married couples grapple and understand this question because it is so intrinsic to the sacrament of marriage. I always liked St. Augustine’s explanation of marriage which is used in the different Church documents on marriage. My synopsis which I’ve kept in my head is:
Marriage is a bond for fidelity and for procreation
The Church documents, such as Humanae Vitae, do have some warning words (is that a good word to use?) around the use of NFP. Grave and serious are most often used nowadays but even if you use the word “just” the standard is still very high. St. Joseph was a “just” man. He was exceedingly holy! The head of the Holy Family. NFP needs to be used with holiness – so does everything else we do, say, or use.
Each family has a different life path. No two families are the same. Since the issue of children is central to the vocation of marriage, I’ve been taught that NFP is best used in conjunction with spiritual direction. A priest, well versed in church teaching, as an impartial third party, probably gives the best definition as to what grave, serious or just means for your family.
May the Lord direct your feet along His path!
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JodieLyn
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I know some quiverfull ladies fairly well.. we've got a respect between us that let's us speak of some of the differences.
Even more basic than what has been posted previously about the protestant idea of quiverfull is the belief that God opens and closes the womb. That you will not be able to get pregnant until it is directly God's will.
And I believe that Catholic position leaves room for the role of nature, which God set up of course, to procede without necessarily stepping in.. that God will allow us to get pregnant without it being directly His will but rather what He allows.
Which is where the difference in thought on NFP comes in.. quiverfull would say.. that NFP makes no difference whatsoever because you can't control your fertility at all except with total abstinance.
One other thought... I found that when how I thought about pregnancy/more children got turned around that NFP made a lot more sense to me.. rather than just being "Catholic birthcontrol".
And that is the world says "you need to use birth control unless you're actively trying to get pregnant"
When I turned it around with NFP I get "you don't use birth control/NFP unless you have a reason to do so"
What those reasons can be.. I've seen a whole gamut of them.. from the simple "I don't wanna" to the "must be life or death to be serious enough".
One thing that I have observed with actual people is that the desire to have another child doesn't really seem to have any bearing on the matter.. it's emotion.. and contentment with where you are is also a gift from God.
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Helen
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JodieLyn wrote:
Even more basic than what has been posted previously about the protestant idea of quiverfull is the belief that God opens and closes the womb. That you will not be able to get pregnant until it is directly God's will.
And I believe that Catholic position leaves room for the role of nature, which God set up of course, to procede without necessarily stepping in.. that God will allow us to get pregnant without it being directly His will but rather what He allows. |
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Jodie, I believe that Catholics believe God directly wills each human being.
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JodieLyn
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Not in the same way Helen.. otherwise why would Catholics believe NFP would work at all?
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Helen
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JodieLyn wrote:
| Not in the same way Helen.. otherwise why would Catholics believe NFP would work at all? |
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NFP isn't 100 percent. For example, I believe, CCL rates NFP at about 98 or 99 percent effective.It does leave room for God to work and give a child to the couple.
I think this spirit of allowing God to be present and offer a child to the couple is part of the Catholic spirit in practicing NFP. If you don't allow God any room, that sounds like birth control to me.
We believe that the Lord is a good Father, a merciful saviour, and the giver of Life. He knows our frailties; He knows our strengths; and He knows what is best for us. Part of life, part of NFP, part of marriage is learning to trust God and grow in holiness.
I can't comment on Protestant interpretation of marriage. But, I've been married as a Catholic and to a Catholic for 15 years.  I wouldn't change that for anything!
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Willa
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Helen wrote:
| Jodie, I believe that Catholics believe God directly wills each human being. |
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In Humani Generis, Pope Pius says that "the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God".
It would seem to me, though I'm no expert, that this would imply that God directly wills each human being.
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JodieLyn
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I can see that what I was trying to express I didn't/don't have the words for.. 
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Willa
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I don't know too much about Quiverful, though I used to belong to a QF list. I believe what you are saying about the differences, Jodie, and I agree the terminology is tricky. I think I was probably talking about something different from what you meant.
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CrunchyMom
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JodieLyn wrote:
I can see that what I was trying to express I didn't/don't have the words for..
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Perhaps what you are intending to express in regards to God's will in creating life through nature can be related to life created outside of God's moral will. Life from relations outside of marriage or in vitro fertilization or other methods morally prohibited by the church (and thus, outside of God's will for us since it is never his will that we sin) will still result in a life according to the natural processes he has set up.
Growing up Protestant, those without the quiverfull mentality would throw around statements in defense of birth control like, "well, if God really wanted me to get pregnant, bc couldn't stop him." And yet, that mentality is also not how God chooses to use His will in most cases. He most often works within the confines of natural law and "allows" for birth control to work effectively, even if he would otherwise have "willed" a life had the couple been open to it.
So, I don't think that Jodie was making a statement about God's intent in creating the person--each soul is created with care by him. Rather, it was about different perceptions in how God does that. The Catholic view seems to be intrinsically interwoven with natural law which seems, to my understanding, how He "intends" to work most of the time (miracles excluded, of course).
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: QuiverFull = Catholic??
