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Vanna
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I have have a friend who is a Quiver Full (Evangelical Christian people who believe that they are to have as many children as God gives them..they have a website at quiverfull.com). Is this the same idea that most Catholics support? When she was explaining her beliefs to me, they sounded very similiar to a Catholic woman I spoke to once about her large family.
I am struggling to find the right words here because I am not trying to be offensive or controversial. I am a convert to Catholism. I took birth control pills until I became Catholic. After converting, I just paid attention to my cycle and abstained during fertile times (my understanding of the Catholic literature on fertility is that this is permitted, correct??). We had one month where things were a little off, and poof, God gave us my dear 2 year old. A wonderful blessing.
I have noticed that many/most people here do not practice any form of birth control, "just what God gives me, He gives me". I think this is amazing, wonderful and awe-inspiring...but I fear it is just never going to be for me or my husband. I guess my question is, is it ok to do what I've been doing and actively avoid pregnancy? We have no desire for more children. I feel like I would have at least a little desire for more if that's what God wanted from me. I'm just worried that we are doing something wrong...or that something is wrong with me.
My goodness, I hope I have not offended anyone. I just don't know who else to ask.
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Lisbet
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Dear Vanna, I am going to take my time and give this question some very prayerful consideration. Only one thing is sure, and that is that what we desire is not always what God desires for us, and vice versa. I will try to revisit this later, I'm sure others will chime in with wonderful words also.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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LisaR
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Lisbet wrote:
| Only one thing is sure, and that is that what we desire is not always what God desires for us, and vice versa. |
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ditto!! I am glad you posted about this Vanna, it is a great topic and very relevant here. sadly I am out of time, hoping maybe I can revisit later.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Nina
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Vanna,Catholic teaching is that you use NFP ONLY in cases of valid necessity.Perhaps a serious health issue,extreme financial problems,or any other serious issues.This should be discussed with a priest.I'm not making any judgements,due to some health issues we had to use NFP also.Now I'm expecting our 7th child and it is such a great blessing for the entire family.You could read some literature from the Couple to Couple League on this topic.Unfortunately,there is a lot of wrong info that the Church does not teach on this subject.
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amyable
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Hi Vanna - I hope I don't run out of time too soon and sound "short" - this is an important question and deserves a well thought out, loving answer. 
Vanna wrote:
| I have have a friend who is a Quiver Full (Evangelical Christian people who believe that they are to have as many children as God gives them..they have a website at quiverfull.com). Is this the same idea that most Catholics support? |
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*Most* Catholics? Ha, probably not (although I don't know the real numbers. Although most of the Catholics *I* know are actually doing things against Church teaching. Most women here? Well, I think *most* is not true, but many do, and many of our more frequent posters do. But many do not. The Catholic Church teaches (correct me if I'm wrong, someone!) that we are to be generous with our fertility - that doesn't mean that we must just have relations "whenever" and have as many babies as that produces. It means that you CAN do that, or you can also re-visit the issue on a frequent basis to ask yourselves, "Is there a serious reason we should not become pregnant this month?" As long as one is not using artifical birth control, abstaining during fertile times after prayerful attention to the issue is OKed by the Church.
Vanna wrote:
| I have noticed that many/most people here do not practice any form of birth control, "just what God gives me, He gives me". I think this is amazing, wonderful and awe-inspiring |
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Like I said above, I don't know that it's most ... I'd guess it depends on what you mean by many (I'd love to see an anonymous poll but I know that's probably taboo  ). I too find it awe inspiring. I think it's a goal! But really, marriages are as individual as people - we are ALL on a faith journey, and where you are today may not be where you are 5 years from now. And what God wants of you now may not be what God is desiring from another couple right now.
But I do agree with the other ladies, what *I* want and what God wants do not always match up! We have, in the past, used NFP to avoid and achieve PG, and have also just said "come what may". I will admit that being open to relations with dh at any time is a real marriage booster  . I know other moms here have said the same thing.
As far as prayer goes, I find the simple prayer of "Make my dh's heart like Your's Lord" and then me following dh's leading, works wonders.
I hope this all came across OK. The baby woke up and my train of thought derailed. He's just that cute 
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Lisbet
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Quote:
| We have no desire for more children. I feel like I would have at least a little desire for more if that's what God wanted from me |
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Yes, NFP is indeed morally permissable in serious situations, and those reasons are up to each couple, with a properly formed conscience and (hopefully!) guidance from a good priest.
What concerns me is the above quote. The word 'desire' deserves consideration here I think. What is it about having another child that you may not 'desire'?
There are many things we may or may not desire, but they are part of the package in our vocations. I like clean clothes, and surely God desires that I not run around naked, but I certainly don't desire laundry!
Another thing to consider is that we are to stive to want to do God's will, what we desire should only go as far as desiring what God wants for us. Marriage and procreation go hand in hand - I say this in all delicate charity, but not 'desiring' either aspect of the maritial embrace - unitive or procreative - does not 'excuse' us from it.
Regarding the 'quiverfull' idea, I guess I simply do not know enough about this belief to comment on it, only that it seems to be an 'optional' belief among protestants. Remaining open to life is not an option among Catholics.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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PDyer
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I found reading (and re-reading) Humanae Vitae and Familiaris Consortio very helpful. One More Soul has excellent articles as well.
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
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Vanna
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I guess by desire...hmmm what do I mean? lol...I guess it's just that my friend (the Quiver Full one) said that in the beginning of her marriage they used bc pills, then one day she felt God was "convicting" her for taking them. She talked to her husband about stopping bc pills. He totally disagreed with her. Then 6 months later, out of the blue, he said that he agreed. Power of her prayer? She says she feels this burning "baby desire" and pretty soon God grants her another one. I know I'm not making a lot of sense. I just don't know how to explain it. I just never feel that desire. I feel quite happy and content with our family as is.
I do want to do God's will. I truly do. I just don't know what God's will for me is. Right now, it wouldn't matter because my husband is totally against more children...completely and totally.
I'm just beginning to feel afraid that I'm not doing the right thing.
Thank you everyone.
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Lisbet
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Quote:
| my husband is totally against more children...completely and totally |
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Vanna, there is your answer then! :) Just pray each day that your husbands heart is open to the will of God for your family, and he will take care of it all. It is wonderful that you are content where you are - we all should be so content! ;) yet we always need to be open to whichever direction God may lead us, even if it messes up what "I" want. (<---That is me, saying it with a huffy foot stomp! )
Golly, if all that was need to have another was the 'burning baby desire', we'd have 60 or so kids here... I get uncomfortable with the quiverfull 'wording' I guess.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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jdostalik
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Dear Vanna,
Take your concerns to Our Lord before the Blessed Sacrament, if possible.
Kimberly Hahn has written a good book that you may be able to get from your library (or interlibrary loan). It is called Life Giving Love.
I will pray for your intentions, especially during our family Rosary each evening!
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God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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Sarah M
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Willa
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church on "regulating procreation""
Quote:
2A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality....
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."157
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. |
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What adds up to a "just reason" differs from married couple to married couple, which is why they must be the ones to make the decision in light of a loving search for what God wants for them. However, as the Catechism says, it is also important to make their decisions seriously and be willing to evaluate.
A very sweet friend who with her husband was a "Teaching Couple" for CCL told me that she and her husband would use the abstinence periods of the marriage to prayerfully reflect on whether they had room for "one more soul"... keeping in mind that a child is a precious gift. I liked that and am glad for this conversation which put it in the front of my mind once more.
(I am one of those who LONG for another child but we have serious health reasons that cause us to be using NFP).
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Willa
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Mackfam
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Vanna-
I'm going to link you to two threads that go into a lot of detail in this area. May be more than you were ready to hear...but you asked and I link them in all charity.
You have a good and open heart to seek the truth. I think there is much in the following discussions for you to ponder. I want to be clear, I am in no way trying to (or suggesting that you) undermine the authority of your husband as the head of your home. My husband and I were in a similar situation many years ago. I wish someone had been clear on this issue...I wish someone would have been candid.
My husband and I (with much sadness because NFP isn't the default setting - it's the exception) use NFP at times because we, through much prayer, discern serious and grave reasons to postpone a pregnancy. We have also used NFP to achieve a pregnancy. And there have been extraordinary times that we have surrendered our wills to God's plan and been rewarded beyond measure with great joy and also great suffering. If NFP is ever used as "birth control" I think it is being mis-used.
Your concerns about *desiring* are feelings. Feelings and emotions are good (like when they motivate us to act on something we might have otherwise ignored) but they can also be misleading. Think of Blessed Mother Theresa who, by her own admission, *felt* nothing for many years in her soul connecting her to God. There were no spiritual warm fuzzies for her. She persevered through faith, obedience, and prayer. I am not in any way suggesting your feelings or desire should be ignored, just cautioning to keep them in context. I say this as someone who would be completely driven by passions and emotion were it not for the grace of God and the gift of balance offered by my husband.
We are called to be generous. There are so many circumstances known to God alone in a marriage - miscarriages or loss of a child, health issues, fertility issues, abuse, crisis of faith...which is why it is so important to pray and talk with Him about this, and if needed seek wise and solid spiritual direction from a well-formed priest.
This is a pretty controversial subject as you'll see if you read through these threads. But sometimes it is less threatening to sit back and read a past conversation hidden and small and humble so that you are able to bring these thoughts to God in prayer.
For your consideration and with my heartfelt prayers as you seek to form your conscience...
Grave and Serious Reason...
Covenanted Happiness
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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Mackfam
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I should have warned you - they are LONG (but worthwhile) reads!
Grab some Oreos and read after your 2 year old is in bed.
Don't you find that everything goes down easier with an Oreo (or 5) in your hand.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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LisaR
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Sarah M wrote:
| The Church does not require of us that we have as many children as physically possible- we are allowed and encouraged to space and prevent pregnancy by using NFP. Many devout Catholics are open to life if God chooses it for them, but actively prevent pregnancy by praciticing NFP. |
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I think the above is very important to note: and it is unfortunate that occasionally a Catholic or other Christian will equate lots of kids=being MORE open to God's will somehow or more kids equals being a better Christian, etc. then kids could be looked at as posessions in a weird way. (this might be why I bristle and the circus of the Duggars, but that is for another post, and is just a general sense of sell-out, I don't have cable to discern or watch them often...)
sometimes, painfully, God's will is to not conceive a child. sometimes, painfully, it might be TO be more open to another. and in either case it is a matter of living minute to minute, asking for the grace to deal with His will and find the joy in His wisdom...
also just a side note. the great thing about NFP is that if one is "using" it to avoid pregnancy, it is a non action! and then that can be a time to continue to discuss and pray and discern....
so technically one could use the term "actively using NFP" only within the context of acheiving a pregnancy, kwim??
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Cay Gibson
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One thing that always touched my heart about CCL's teaching regarding NFP was that the couple should always remember in discerning to abstain during the fertile time each month (due to each couple's prayerful discernment regarding "serious reason") that it should be viewed with sadness and prayerful understanding of the sacrifice the couple is being called to make. In one form or the other, the marital embrace should always be a sacrifice of self.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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chicken lady
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Sarah M wrote:
| Just a side note- the Church teaches that NFP is not only to be used in "serious situations", but can be used as freely as the couple wishes- go to Couple to Couple League |
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What????????
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LisaR
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chicken lady wrote:
Sarah M wrote:
| Just a side note- the Church teaches that NFP is not only to be used in "serious situations", but can be used as freely as the couple wishes- go to Couple to Couple League |
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What???????? |
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I went to CCL's website and clicked on "about NFP" and it is a rather short and simple statement, they uphold the teachings of the Magesterium and the Catholic Church...but no specifics.
***side note:
I know this is not the point of the discussion, but one very exciting and interesting change that I have seen in recent years (I have taught NFP for 11 years) is that OVER 1/2 of our last 4 classes (averaging 10 couples in each class- YAY!!) are women who are coming off of hormonal contraceptives due to conversion and are actively seeking to learn NFP to acheive a pregnancy.
their fertility is a bit shaky due to all the years of hormone use, and well, they suddenly realize that they have wasted alot of time
it is such a joy to see!
and we in general are also seeing more couples whose Dr's are telling them to try in vitro or IUI, and they are trying the moral, and natural approach. one recent couple had been infertile 9 years, and now pregnant with fertility awareness!!
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Willa
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LisaR wrote:
| I went to CCL's website and clicked on "about NFP" and it is a rather short and simple statement, they uphold the teachings of the Magesterium and the Catholic Church...but no specifics. |
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I did the same thing -- and I think the absence of specific information is because CCL is focused towards encouragement of ANY couple who wants to use natural methods, though they are a Catholic ministry, of course, and are not "watering down" Catholic teachings.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Red Cardigan
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I just want to share this article, which to me contains the most thorough and wise discussion of NFP I've ever read; it includes a section explaining how "grave" or "serious" reasons is a mistranslation for the words "just reasons" and what this means, practically speaking, for most couples.
It's well worth a read!
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http://www.redcardigan.blogspot.com
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: QuiverFull = Catholic??
