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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 3:11pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
| I think there is a distinct difference between "extending" childhood and "preserving" it. Extending implies prolonging childhood beyond the appropriate length of time (whatever that may be) while preservation implies protecting childhhood from premature loss. |
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Good distinction! I knew some twenty-somethings whose parents were still extending their childhood. Not what I have in mind! 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 3:13pm | IP Logged
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Everyone has made a lot of good points. I have a few to add, though.
I think the idea is that we want our children to be inexperienced with those bad things in life but not naive about them. Some would argue that you can't help but be naive if you are inexperienced, but I think it depends. Experiences do tend make a deeper impression than someone telling you the reasons not to do something..a la Natural Consequences. However, there are some things we hope our children never experience, things that will leave them as broken people.
I agree with Theresa's (Lapazfarmer)distinction between preserving and extending childhood. The main argument for institutional schooling is so that at age 6 kids are "getting prepared" for a nine to five adult job. Culturally, though, the structures of school set children up to act in ways that appear adult but really aren't. High schoolers think that being an adult means freedom to do whatever you want: have sex, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol; they tend to be blind to the responsibilities of adulthood because they do not have "real" responsibilities. Middle schoolers try to imitate high schoolers; and elementary schoolers want to act big like the middle schoolers.
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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I didn't get to finish my thoughts above. That pesky thing called "life" interrupted me...
Homeschoolers are often criticized for sheltering. I homeschool because I don't want my kids during elementary or middle school age to start trying to live some crazy version of what they think is grown up (thus I am into preserving their childhood), but I also want my high schoolers to have real world experiences so that adulthood isn't such a depressing shock to their system. Even the most responsible teenagers, often have a real shocker when they graduate college and they are suddenly completely responsible for themselves.
And I think that you can expose your kids to suffering without making them suffer. Volunteering at soup kitchens and such makes the suffering in the world come to life and teaches compassion. But I think we have to walk a fine line between making the world seem like a hopeless mess and making it seem like it's a happy, rosy place where nothing really bad every happens.
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Barbara
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Martha
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 3:52pm | IP Logged
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Philothea wrote:
I think someone made this point already, but suffering and immorality are two different things ... immorality LEADS to suffering, but we focus on the suffering around here. The effects, not necessarily the cause. TO the extent we talk about the cause, it is in child-appropriate terms which will become more sophisticated as the children age (my kids are very young, but I take the same approach with my older nieces and nephews and also my CCD 4th graders). Every question gets an honest answer.
I don't sugar coat. They ask what abortion is, I tell them in blunt, but never graphic terms. They ask WHY anyone would do something so horrible, I give them some of the reasons. Inevitably it leads to them thinking through the issue on their own and coming up with better solutions (in the case of abortion, they usually come to the conclusion that adoption is the better way if one cannot raise the baby they've been blessed with, and further, that one should be married before making babies).
I think it's important to be real with our kids. The world has a lot of ugliness in it. There is also much beauty. It's important to let them be exposed to both while they are still under the influence of our teaching, so they can recognize both ... and choose beauty.
This is jumbled and the baby woke up, so I have to go. Interesting discussion, I'll be back. |
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I understood completely! 
People, I think I may have been misunderstood or maybe we're all trying to gather our thoughts on this?
I'm not advocating that parents toss their precious lamb children to the wolves and call it a life less and maturing experience. 
But they most certainly do need to know that wolves are out there ready to pounce and how to protect themselves from falling prey.
Even more they have to be able to navigate this world around those wolves and, at times, they might even be called to convert a wolf or two or protect someone else!
I also don't view shelter as in being with family is a negative. In fact, I shelter my children by insisting they learn those life lessons from the safety net of our family.
hmmmm.
I'm not sure I see a difference between preserving and extending. Let's take fruit for example. The tomato. In it's natural state, it grows and ripen and we eat it. Is preserving it in a jar more natural than chemicals that force ripen it? One may say so. (I do!) But neither are the natural course of the tomato life.
It would see to me that the point of preserving is to extend?
hmmm more to ponder...
and wondering how horrid I must sound...
really people my kids are fairly happy and enjoy a good life. they are out playing in the beautiful weather catching frogs.
I on the other hand am typing and avoiding laundry and dishes. 
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 4:06pm | IP Logged
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I don't think anyone here thinks that of you, Martha. At least I hope not!
I do think we are gathering our thoughts--thinking out loud, in a way.
I've a feeling there are more thoughts to come!LOL!
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 4:23pm | IP Logged
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I think that the distinction between preserving it and extending it are related to our current culture and what one views as "natural"
The reason the whole chemical ripening thing works to ripen a tomato later is because the tomato has been picked while its green (and genetically modified, right?). So I guess that rather than "preserving" the tomato, I just want to give it the opportunity to vine ripen. I feel like society wants to pick my children while they are green, and that by guarding them, I'm providing a safe environment for them to mature at a natural rate.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Leonie
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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[QUOTE=Martha]
In fact, my dh and I have long conversations about this.
I come from a very rough and hard childhood. Really no childhood at all.
So I have to balance the desire to give my children what I didn't have with the harsh reality that my past has made me who I am - not an entirely horrible person who seems to see things in a way others don't. /QUOTE]
Wow, everyone, thanks for all the thoughts. Just back from Mass and I get to ponder!
Martha, I've quoted you above because I can relate. I had a less than perfect childhood, I grew up pretty quickly and this has served me both well and badly now as a mother.
Well, in that I am tough, I learned how to work, how to persevere, make a commitment, stand strong, how to balance things, how to make my kids' childhood better than mine.
It serves me badly because often emotions from the past, anger or depression issues, pop out now and I don't relate as well as I should.
I tend to want to make life pleasant for my kids, yet I know that the reality is that this can't alwyas be so. I want the Brady Bunch sort of family, superficial I know - few upsets and lots of smiles. Simply because I didn't have that as a child...
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stacykay
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This is quite thought provoking! I guess I have never sat down and planned out what to let our boys see or not see.
I don't know exactly how to say what I am thinking, but partly, I would say we don't try in a concerted way to soften any "blows" they may face. Whether it is not making a team, having a friend not want to play, not being able to afford the latest toy, whatever, in that way.
Also, life just has a way of happening! I didn't shield them when my mom was gravely ill and dying. We let them sit with her and talk to her; see her and offer their love and good-byes. 
Just recently, a girl in our homeschool group died in an auto accident. They all saw me cry. And they have helped to take dinners over to her parents and siblings.
When we go downtown, they see plenty of homeless (one sleeping on a grate in 0`F weather.) We see children who live in ramshackle homes.
When we study various countries, I don't try to sugarcoat things. I have talked about the conditions in Africa. We have talked, extensively, about China's "human rights" policies. When we get to the 2nd World War, I will give info about the concentration camps, just how much will depend on age. We have a Holocaust Museum nearby, and they recommend 13 and up, so I will take only one ds to visit.
I don't sit them in front of the evening news, though! bleh. But they do hear things here and there, and I try to answer in age-appropriate ways. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying I will give more info when they get older. Not that has happened too often.
It would be very hard to shield them from every tragedy, violent attack or perversion that is going on in the world, as much as I wish those things just didn't occur!
Like Martha wrote, I too, am trying to gather my thoughts around me. And, I think my guys are a pretty happy lot! In spite of me!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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donnalynn
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Martha
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 8:05pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
I think there are ways to let children know that there is evil out there without actually pointing out the wolf over there lurking behind the tree or worse, to point out all the scary creatures that might be out there!
Here literature plays an important role in our family. First through fairy tales, legends of saints and then their biographies - a working knowledge of our faith - more complex novels about good and evil - these are our training ground for what the children might have to face later in life. |
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I do not advocate looking and pointing to every possible "wolf".
What I also do not advocate:
*is living in lala land where people pretend there are no wolves
*saying the wolves really don't mean any harm - they just need therapy and acceptance
*saying wolves are nothing to worry about their pretty little heads about.
I completely get what you mean about the other end of the spectrum. The end where no one should ever bring chidlren into this horrible evil world is the prevailing philosophy. The world where nothing matters because nothing makes a real difference.
I think literature can make a great difference too!
It can offer amazing stories of true christ-like people living in less than christ-like times.
It can offer words of wisdom and lessons to live by.
But I have actually met at least 3 people this year who flat out refuse to read most literature because they say their little dc is supposedly too sensitive for it. I'm not talking about trash stuff posing as modern literature or even dark fairy tales folks. I'm talking people who refuse to read saints bios to their 10 year old because they weep over the martyrs and other saintly hardships. I even met one who wouldn't read the story of the crucifixtion from the bible for the same reasons. Who cares if they cry? I don't get why tears are to be avoided. Genuine empathy is a good thing? My kids cry over things too. And we talk about it and they feel better. We explain things to them, talk about it, what can or can't be done and so forth and that usually clears most tears up and we move on. It's really not that big a deal unless the parent makes it a big deal?
It seriously disturbed me that a catholic parent was so set on avoiding upseting their child that they deprived that child of the entire reason and foundation of our Church - for an 11 yr old (goodness even a 5 yr old?!) to not know about what the crucifixtion is just completely freaked me out. Whenever the child asked about the cross and jesus at mass - what in the world is he being told? How can he possibly be ready for FHC and confirmation?
Okay thoroughly off topic there...deep breath.
Just spoke to that family the other day and still a bit freaked out. obviously.
No doubt they are just as freaked out that a catholic hs-ing mom of 8 does not where skirts all the time and lets her older children read and watch Harry Potter.  
vine ripened kids! yes that's very good!
anyone care to debate how we can tell they are ripe before they go rotten? (pure tongue in cheek there!  )
This is such an interesting discussion.
Like most of you have said I don't think about it daily, but I do have to think about it because I do want them to have a different childhood than myself or at the least to actually HAVE a childhood, which I do think I'm managing to accomplish so far. I hope.
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hopalenik
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Hi,
My family experiences much suffering just because our son was born with Kidney failure. After fighting tooth and nail to keep him alive till transplantation, we learned that suffering in children causes both trauma and strenght of character and compassion. My children are VERY compassionate about the needs of others because they have seen it all, including other children dying in the hospitals over the years. When my oldest was three she could tell you exactly what happened to a hospital room when a child dies-mother wailing, sheet pulled over the head, the body being rolled down the hall, CPR, the room cleaning, the nurses crying after the family leaves....She knows what death is and I don't think that is a bad thing. My son suffers every day, choking down the medicine, the constant blood draws, the invasive-nearly sexually assaulting medical tests, the constantly being dragged to the doctor for issues that his sisters never see the doctor for....he knows that he is different and we have never hidden the fact from him that he may very well need to be transplanted again or face more surgery. We don't emphasize it, dwell on it much, but when the questions come up we are succinctly but completely honest-"God has a plan for you and we don't know what it is and maybe that it will be alot more medical trauma. But that isn't his plan at the moment so don't worry about it..." My son has fears but to deny them would be lying and would not prepare him for the reality that he will have health problems at some point in time.
For us, the suffering has meant sanctification. I rediscovered Catholicism after I read Pope JP2's encyclical on the meaning of suffering. I tend to be very skeptical of the idea of sheltering children from suffering because of what I have seen in the hospital. I would like to give a really good example. There was a child dying of cystic fibrosis and a failed lung transplant on our floor a few years back. He was school agish-hard to tell because he was tiny but probably 8 or 9ish. He was facing imminent death and this kid just wanted to see his 2 close friends. He knew that he was dying and I doubt that he had much understanding of an afterlife. I heard his mother on the phone in the central area begging, tears streaming down her face, just pleading with this mother to bring her son down to see his "best friend" before the boy died. But the mom wouldn't do it, she had apparently told her kids that the boy had already died, and she did not feel it appropriate to make then endure the sight of their friend in so much suffering. I don't know what ended up happening because we went home, but that vision has always stuck in my head. When my twins were born, and Josh was so, so near death, none of my friends would step foot into the hospital because they just "couldn't stand to see a baby in so much pain, it would be soo upsetting." Their inability to "stand" suffering meant that they lacked the empathy and compassion to help me when I was in need. I still send them Christmas cards but one Christmas I let them know as gently as possible that I felt there sensibilities were down right cruel under the circumstances. I know people who don't want their children to take chances climbing this or doing that becasue of the fear of broken bones, but that type of suffering is just part of life and an absence of it will absolutely only lead to weakness, and self pitying behaviour as an adult. I ought to know, I was an only child who was sheilded from everything. My mother did not want me to suffer anything-therefore I didn't climb trees because I might fall and hurt myself. I didn't go to funerals because it would upset me, and I didn't suffer consequences because she didn't want to see me cry. Consequently, everything that I experienced was a trauma. I was the biggest, self centered drama queen that walked around in the early 80's and 90's. Everything was so traumatic, and it never occured to me that anyone else experienced pain or suffering-only me. I was so hard hearted, that I tried to pass out on saying good bye to my Grandma on her death bed. Thankfully, an aunt shamed me into going. I was so weak willed that I almost let my son die rather than going through the trauma that we were informed of up front. But the suffering, has been the best thing that ever happened to me and that suffering I don't complain at all about...now the parental and in law visits I could complain about for hours but not what we have been through with Josh.
So I completely, and whole heartedly believe in what Pope Benedict says. I don't shield my kids from suffering and I don't prevent the suffering from happening...I just do my best to screen from evil. My children have seen pictures of the kids starving at certain missions, and they know intellectually what it means to be low caste in India, and they know that we are at war and that sometimes children die and they have seen once the video of the twin towers. I don't dwell on these things but if they come up the children hear the truth because they need to know that they have it easy and that life is not so pleasant for other children out there-otherwise what reason do they have for praying to God. We have a cousin, who is the exact age as my oldest and he was raped several times a few years back-that trauma was not discussed. We kept that to ourselves but begged the kids to pray for him daily because something horrible had happened to him that was beyond their comprehension. But we have not discussed it. We have discussed abortion but not in detail because the kids need to know-there is no way to avoid that topic. So painful suffering we discuss but sinful suffering we do not.
I just had to ramble because it is a topic that I have thought about alot.
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Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
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Leonie
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| Posted: April 22 2008 at 9:06pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
No doubt they are just as freaked out that a catholic hs-ing mom of 8 does not where skirts all the time and lets her older children read and watch Harry Potter. . |
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I can relate - the kids and I were discussing this morning how bad I look in long skirts. Some people manage elegant - in long skirts I look daggy!
Back to the scheduled topic -
An old priest once said to me – You don’t have to go looking for crosses, the cross will come to you and it will be the one that is meant for you.
I don’t make crosses for my kids, suffering and hard work comes naturally . But because I had a hard childhood myself, I tend to want everything to be easier for them. For us to be like the Brady Bunch.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 5:50am | IP Logged
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Isn't that the challenge with vine ripened tomatoes? Knowing exactly when to pick them at the height of their flavor before they get mushy? 
Well, I would agree with you, Martha. My son is almost four, and we talk a lot about how Jesus on the cross is dead and the soldiers "cut him" (and I try to emphasize, of course, how he came back to life!). My husband even stayed up with both him and the two year old and watched Ben Hur during holy week. They loved it! I'm sure many would find the story of Ben Hur a bit heavy for four and two.
Now, I did get nightmares as a child from Little Red Riding Hood and even just the commercials to horror flicks; so, when it comes to images, I try to watch and be aware of what is too much. To me, nightmares are something to avoid whereas tears aren't necessarily. The two year old started bawling terrified during a documentary about beavers. No beaver died or was attacked or anything, but something about the way it was filmed freaked him out; so, even though the content wasn't a real concern, lol, we weren't going to make him suffer through. It was weird, and we still laugh about it!
So, I guess that I feel like I filter and shelter and would describe myself that way, and your friend would claim the same thing for herself. It isn't until you get into the details that you would find my filter operates quite differently from hers.
So, perhaps that is what makes this topic so difficult and one people "think outloud" about, because there is no term or words to describe what "sheltering" means since it can mean such vastly different things to so many people. You rebel against the idea of doing it because you associate it with certain friends who won't even read the Passion to their 11 year old, and others rebel against your self described philosophy, because until you expound a bit, they associate it with extreme thoughts they've seen in others.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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hopalenik
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[/QUOTE]
So, perhaps that is what makes this topic so difficult and one people "think outloud" about, because there is no term or words to describe what "sheltering" means since it can mean such vastly different things to so many people. You rebel against the idea of doing it because you associate it with certain friends who won't even read the Passion to their 11 year old, and others rebel against your self described philosophy, because until you expound a bit, they associate it with extreme thoughts they've seen in others.
[/QUOTE]
That was nicely said. I have had relatives jump on me because my children are naive and sheltered but the same ones turn around and tell me that I should lie to my son and just tell him that everything will always be OK.
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Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
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Martha
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hopalenik wrote:
| That was nicely said. I have had relatives jump on me because my children are naive and sheltered but the same ones turn around and tell me that I should lie to my son and just tell him that everything will always be OK. |
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ARGH! Isn't that the truth? You know I've actually had people say in the same conversation something to the effect of:
"Oh your kids are so nice and well-mannered. You know you really should send them to public school or they are going to grow up freaks."
or
"You're kids are only so nice because they don't know any better - like robots!"
what is up with that????
If that makes my kids freaks, then I'd rather have my sweet well-mannered don't know it's okay to sin freaks for kids than tha normal alternative thank you very much.
Holly your post about your son really spoke to me.
My dad was... well not very nice. He considered himself a "real" man. You know the kind that could put a woman in her place. 
But when my mother was dying of cancer after staying with the jerk for over 35 yrs, she came to live with me (a 22 yr old mother of a 18 month old and a newborn) because he has an "issue" with hospitals. He finally showed up for about the last 15 minutes of her life. To this day he says that was okay because she knew how he was and understood. So, mom knew he was a coward who'd rather let her die alone than man up? And that makes it better?
I've been at at least 7 bedsides for people whose family won't come in the room to hold their hand because they "just can't handle it" - the pain, the blood, the tears - the whatever. I find it tragic that they can handle leaving someone they love to be in pain and scared alone at a time when truely having someone hold their hand makes a world of difference. It makes me so  !
Folks I'm sure the spelling is terrible. I lost my glasses and can't get the screen to enlarge! Maybe a cup of coffee will help me ...
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Martha
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Cay Gibson
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Leonie wrote:
An old priest once said to me � You don�t have to go looking for crosses, the cross will come to you and it will be the one that is meant for you.
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That's how I feel.
I do not need to expose my children to hate and violence and drugs and abortion and porn, etc.
I do need to warn them about it.
Just yesterday my 10 yr old was telling me she made a "new friend" at Club Penguin and how "nice" she was. I immediately turned all my attention to the conversation and the first question I asked was, "You haven't given out your real name or address or any personal information, have you?"
I'm afraid that sounds very pointed and accusing but my children know when I'm serious about something. I'm very direct. She told me you aren't allowed to give out any personal information or you're banned from playing.
I also reminded her that that "nice friend" could be an older man who was tricking her. I wasn't graphic, but I was direct and very honest with her.
Still, it gave me another opportunity to talk to her about the different types of people who are out there. I told her about my 10 yrs on the Internet and all of you and those of you we have met in our travels and what a blessing the Internet and all you "friends" have been to our family. But I also explained how children can be fooled on the Internet and how she should never, never, never...
I won't go on, but you all know the "talk" we give our children about Internet safety, Stranger Danger, etc.
My children (including the 20 yr old) have been given this talk countless times. They might  their eyes at me, but I give it periodically anyway.
No more time. Must run.
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Cay Gibson
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stefoodie
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I think that the distinction between preserving it and extending it are related to our current culture and what one views as "natural"
The reason the whole chemical ripening thing works to ripen a tomato later is because the tomato has been picked while its green (and genetically modified, right?). So I guess that rather than "preserving" the tomato, I just want to give it the opportunity to vine ripen. I feel like society wants to pick my children while they are green, and that by guarding them, I'm providing a safe environment for them to mature at a natural rate.
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Love your analogy here. Food analogies always work for me. And Iagree completely about society wanting to pick them while they're green.
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stef
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chicken lady
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 11:21am | IP Logged
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Great thread Leonie and Tehresa you make excellent points.
My dc have been exposed to much suffering, I did not go looking for it. We do not shield our dc from real life because we have had it thrown in our laps. I do think folks here may want to tread a little more gently, making large sweeping statements about all 2000 of us on these boards.
Holly, thank you for sharing your suffering, it certainly sheds light to me and to hear of your suffering as greatly educated me this day.
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hopalenik
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
I've been at at least 7 bedsides for people whose family won't come in the room to hold their hand because they "just can't handle it" - the pain, the blood, the tears - the whatever. I find it tragic that they can handle leaving someone they love to be in pain and scared alone at a time when truely having someone hold their hand makes a world of difference. It makes me so !
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I think this is off topic, but I strongly believe that the reason that the euthanasia movement is gaining steam is precisely because of what you mentioned. It isn't that we don't as a society want people to suffer, it is because we don't want to SEE people suffer. To watch a family member or friend suffer requires something from us-time and compassion and the willingness to suffer with them without any control of the situation. When I was told in utero that my twins both had problems, and that we should either abort or take the pregnancy to term and allow him to die at birth-instead of delivering 9 weeks early so he would have a shot at life-I had so many family members jump in with commentary. When we gave birth to the twins and it looked like Josh would not survive or if he did it would be with severe health and cognitive issues, everyone kept saying-but if you do all this your life will be ruined and your other 2 girls will suffer so much. I realized now what they were really saying was-we will suffer so much because we are watching Josh and you suffer and we don't want to-so please just let him die the fast way. Josh now is presumably cognitively normal to above average-he is reading right on track for first grade but Kindergarten in math. Josh is as healthy as can be for a transplant. Yet, so many people wanted us to give him up for dead and just did not think that the horrors that we were experiencing to keep him alive were worth it. Now of course, they all admit that that suffering was worth it because Josh is so normal and cute but if he were cognitively delayed or very sickly I honestly believe that my relatives would not believe that suffering was worth it. They are not cruel people but they have been so conditioned by the utilitarian aspect of life that think in that manner. I personally believe that the greatest gift that has ever been given to me-a former self centered spoiled brat was the opportunity to suffer with a newborn infant and toddler who could "give me nothing" in return for my effort. Josh did more for my soul in the first 2 years of life than every other person on in my entire life combined and he was not able to give me anything back. There were no hugs or kisses from him till well past the age of 2 -almost 3-because he hated me since I was the one who gave him the yucky medicine and the enemas, and the EPO shots every day, and shoved the feeding tube down his nose 2 or 3 times a day and cleaned all his PICC and central lines. I am very sincere when I say that my 2 year old would scream around me because he was so afraid that I would torture him with more and it was pretty constant for about 17 months. Eventually, his memory of the worst of the suffering ended and we have a normal relationship now, but I really have not grown spiritually as much as I did during that time. When I have tried to explain that to non Catholics or non practicing Catholics, they of course don't get it. And of course, they don't get why we shelter our children from sin but not from suffering because it seems to be the opposite for the secular world. Unfortunately, I fear that the more self absorbed the world becomes the more likely that euthanasia becomes normalized because who would really want to spend there time with someone who can't "do anything" for you.
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Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Suffering?
