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doris
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| Posted: April 10 2008 at 4:44pm | IP Logged
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Kathryn UK wrote:
[ To hear you all complaining about it is ... well ... bizarre, from where I stand  . |
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Agreed! 
Petrol prices here are eyewatering. We recently changed car (to accommodate our newest little blessing). Now it costs us �70 ($140) to fill up -- and we do about 180 miles on that. Scary stuff.
However, we do live in London where public transport is relatively efficient. Children go free as well. I just haven't got my head round taking 4 under-7s on the Underground with pram...
As for grocery shopping -- all done on the internet in our house.
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
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CKwasniewski
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After reading this thread, I had a long talk with my dh and we cancelled our beach vacation (point reyes--tide pools) for the summer.
 It was the only prudent thing to do.
I am a bit sad...
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SallyT
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I miss internet grocery shopping! We did that off and on while in Cambridge, especially when we had a new baby -- otherwise I shopped daily and bought what I could load onto the stroller. Shopping on foot didn't really translate into greater economy -- I never bought things in bulk,for example, because I not only had no way to transport them, but I also had no place to store them if I did manage to get them home. So we weren't paying the astronomical gas prices, but we weren't exactly living cheaply, either.
Grocery shopping via Amazon would be one way to cut down on driving, though it probably wouldn't make life any cheaper in the long run. It would just mean that you were saving your gas, if not your actual money, for some other purpose.
One thought that occurred to me, on reading Kathryn's post and reflecting on the cost of things in England as I remember it, is that while yes, it is possible to live in places where you really don't need a car (like Central Cambridge, for example), the cost of living in those places is so high that you don't end up saving significantly by not driving (over living in another possibly less-expensive place and driving). We were in subsidized student housing, and our rent was still what I would think of as astronomical. Because we were a student family, we didn't pay taxes, but those are also exhorbitant by American standards. In other words, it is possible to live a life far less dependent on automotive fuel -- we could walk to the shops and to church easily -- but that doesn't necessarily translate into greater financial savings. No free lunch anywhere, sorry . . .
Actually, I used to pass large houses in Cambridge, in lovely neighborhoods, and I'd see cars parked out front, and I would think, They can afford to live AND drive? HOW??
I think we've just been very accustomed, in America, to living in a land of cheap plenty which affords its own kind of freedom, and I'm as depressed as anyone to see it go. I've got that American open-road thing pretty deeply ingrained in me.
Sally
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Castle in the Sea
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 10 2008 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
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Wanted to share:
Subtle Frugality
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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KC in TX
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| Posted: April 10 2008 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Cay! It reminded me of how we're not supposed to show how we are sacrificing throughout Lent.
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KC,
wife to Ben (10/94),
Mama to LB ('98)
Michaela ('01)
Emma ('03)
Jordan ('05)
And, my 2 angels, Rose ('08) and Mark ('09)
The Cabbage Patch
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Kathryn UK
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Kathryn,
How much "outside school time" are the girls involved in? Dance? Sports? Etc.? Any?
Our gas bill is running $300-$350 right now and gas is only at $3.19-$3.29 in SW Louisiana. |
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DD1 - dance 4 times a week, band twice a week, and is planning to add in athletics once a week over the summer.
DD2 - dance once a week, Brownies (girl scouts) once a week, and is planning to do athletics twice a week.
Everything they do is local, between half a mile and three miles away, apart from Hannah's Brownies which is just round the corner (less than 5 minutes walk).
What helps us considerably is that Michael works at home two days a week. If he had to go to the office every day that would add another $130 a month to our fuel bill. I'm sure distances to "local" activities and services are generally less here, but very few people live within walking distance of their work, and long commutes are common.
Just out of interest, I found these figures for comparison:
Average income (1/2008)
US $45,800
UK $46,300
Average house prices
US $313,000 (2007 - dropped since)
UK $383,000 (3/2008 - also falling)
Average annual mileage
US 19,000 ("working / family personnel")
UK 9,000 per car - outside cities most families have two, so their mileage would probably be higher. My guess is that at least 12,000 would be typical. Ours is 15,000.
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Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
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stacykay
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Just to get to and from work, my dh drives over 18,850 miles a year. That doesn't include the miles he drives to go to clients (he is an accountant.) Because the firm he is in is very established and on a busy road (good location,) he can't move it closer to home. ...
BUT, we do have a friend who just traded in an older car, buying a new more fuel efficient one, that he says is paying for itself in the money he is saving on gas. Has anyone else done that? Any suggestions for fuel-efficient/high safety autos?
Our minivan that dh drives is 13 years old, and now over 200,000 miles. Needless to say, it was paid off eons ago, and the thought of a car payment is not great (especially after two years of horrendous medical bills, but THAT is a different story- and thread.) But if we could make up the difference in less gas, it sure would be worth it.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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LisaR
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| Posted: April 11 2008 at 9:27am | IP Logged
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Kathryn UK wrote:
Just out of interest, I found these figures for comparison:
Average income (1/2008)
US $45,800
UK $46,300
Average house prices
US $313,000 (2007 - dropped since)
UK $383,000 (3/2008 - also falling)
Average annual mileage
US 19,000 ("working / family personnel")
UK 9,000 per car - outside cities most families have two, so their mileage would probably be higher. My guess is that at least 12,000 would be typical. Ours is 15,000. |
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this does not surprise me, I feel like in general, Americans are a bit more free-spending, and have higher expectations/debt/lifestyle than Europeans/Austrailians do.
we've had many friends and acquaintences live here in Peoria over the years that are working for Caterpillar and are from Europe UK. They make observations that we are on the go much more and buy much more. Also that in Europe, the income to cost of living that you posted Kathryn, has been kind of "always" that way, so people have learned to live really within their means.
Here, this is a HUGE "jolt" to Americans to have EVERYTHING increase dramatically, except salaries, which in many cases are even dropping...
Also in Europe, health care is different, and so is vacation time. Dh makes about what you listed Kathryn, but has to pay 800.00 each month if we want health care out of that, PLUS he only gets 10 vacation days per year.
correct me if I'm wrong, but I see this at the heart of the matter. Our entire economy is being turned on end with regards to basics like food, fuel, etc, and yet our incomes are not providing for this change....
so we can't really compare to European high gas prices, their lifestyle is really quite different in how they consume, and has "always" been that way.
Since post world war II suburbia mania hit over here in the states, we really shifted how we live, play, and work...and now we might be paying the price???
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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sewcrazy
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| Posted: April 11 2008 at 9:38am | IP Logged
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My poor dh drives well over a 1000 miles per week for his business. Fuel was over half of our overhead last month. He is a used car wholesaler, and is having to spread out more and more to make a profit, but the profit is being eaten up in fuel. 
I drive 30 round trip to take my oldest to school, once or twice a day, depending on my dh's schedule. If I don't have to go to the school, I don't go out that day. My dh does most shopping on his way home from work, and I combine any trips I have to make as much as possible.
The other change we made, was dh bought me a new vehicle last year, and got rid of my Suburban.
I now drive a diesel station wagon that seats 8 ( 6 very comfortably and the back 2 rear facing in fold down seats). We use bio diesel for fuel. It is mainly purified soybean oil from restaurants. Bio diesel costs us $2.50 per gallon, and we get about 25 miles to the gallon.
It is not American made, and was not inexpensive, but I shouldn't need a different vehicle for a long, long time. We decided that it was worth the cost in the long run, not to be dependent on fossil fuel.
LeeAnn
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LeeAnn
Wife of David, mom to Ben, Dennis, Alex, Laura, Philip and our little souls in heaven we have yet to meet
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 11 2008 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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Ok, I was looking at those figures and was wondering: with an income of 45,000, how does anyone afford payments on a 300,000+ home? Seems like quite a disconnect there between average income and average housing prices.
My dh makes about that income, and we just bought a house at less than half the cost of the "average"(around 125,000). No way could we afford payments on anything more than that.
What this tells me is that the average American cannot afford to buy the average American home. Same for UK. Am I missing something here?
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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LisaR
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ps, I don't know how anyone making 45,800 could afford a 313,000.00 home. Ours is half that. If we are "supposed to" follow the formula of your housing being about 1/4 of your income than no one should be living with that income/home price anyway!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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great minds think alike Theresa!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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lapazfarm
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sewcrazy wrote:
The other change we made, was dh bought me a new vehicle last year, and got rid of my Suburban.
I now drive a diesel station wagon that seats 8 ( 6 very comfortably and the back 2 rear facing in fold down seats). We use bio diesel for fuel. It is mainly purified soybean oil from restaurants. Bio diesel costs us $2.50 per gallon, and we get about 25 miles to the gallon.
It is not American made, and was not inexpensive, but I shouldn't need a different vehicle for a long, long time. We decided that it was worth the cost in the long run, not to be dependent on fossil fuel.
LeeAnn |
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Tell me more!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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stefoodie
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Hmm...
I googled "bio diesel station wagon seats 8" and look what I found:
a 1985 Mercedes Benz
I know they've been working on bio-diesel for a while but I didn't know MB made one in the '80's!! Did this ever make it to the US? And if it did, wonder if anyone's selling now...
Doesn't Mary Jane Butters drive one (not an 8-seater though)?
ETA: article about Mary Jane Butters
Quote:
| Butters’ own biodiesel-powered 1981 Mercedes-Benz was also on display, along with the German-made oil press they use to create the biodiesel. On acreage bordering the farm, Butters and Ogle raise 22 acres of mustard seed that is converted into fuel for the car. Butters had faith in the biodiesel idea that was initially as “small as a mustard seed” and applied to do research on her farm about how mustard could be used as a natural pest deterrent for crops. With a $50,000 grant from the state of Idaho, butters helped conduct the research and got the mustard seed crop to boot. |
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Waaah. I don't have 22 acres, though I've got lots of mustard seed 
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stef
mom to five
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marihalojen
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LeeAnn, you are my husband's new hero! When we bought our new car this winter, he looked long and hard at Biodiesel cars, very expensive though so we just opted to pay cash instead.
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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CrunchyMom
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Wouldn't it make more sense statistically to look at median home prices? Not sure, since I'm not a mathmatician, lol, but it seems the average would be averaging in VERY expensive homes that most people would never consider and very LOW incomes from people working part-time for minimum wage, etc...
I think most of the debt management type recommendations would assume that many people living at lower income levels would be renting rather than buying, right?
It is also my impression from reading about home improvement and green living, etc..., that homes in Europe are built more expensively than homes here. They use more efficient windows, insulation, furnaces, etc... that all make the upfront cost of the house more--but, people tend to buy/build to live in one place for much longer than Americans do, and in the long term, they don't have to use as much energy to run their home.
Not sure how all that factors in, but it all seems related somehow.
Plus, is the average income the average individual or family income? Most families today are not living off a single income (though most families *here at 4Real* are). That would also explain how the average family affords the average home; though, it still doesn't seem to follow in my mind that the average family is trying to afford to buy the average home price.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Christine
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We know a young man and father, Rob, who saves a bundle by taking full advantage of his diesel engine and the waste fryer grease from the restaurant he manages. A story about what Rob has done can be found here.
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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CrunchyMom
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Christine wrote:
| We know a young man and father, Rob, who saves a bundle by taking full advantage of his diesel engine and the waste fryer grease from the restaurant he manages. A story about what Rob has done can be found here. |
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That is so cool! I'd bet you could buy waste grease from local restaurants that would otherwise throw it out.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Kathryn UK
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lapazfarm wrote:
Ok, I was looking at those figures and was wondering: with an income of 45,000, how does anyone afford payments on a 300,000+ home? Seems like quite a disconnect there between average income and average housing prices.
My dh makes about that income, and we just bought a house at less than half the cost of the "average"(around 125,000). No way could we afford payments on anything more than that.
What this tells me is that the average American cannot afford to buy the average American home. Same for UK. Am I missing something here?
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Averages tell you everything and nothing . Not everyone owns their own home, and it is a safe bet that those on lower incomes are more likely to rent or be in social housing. The average income of home-owners would therefore be higher than the overall average, possibly significantly higher. The second factor is two income families. For many families in the UK (and I guess in the US too), having a second income is the only way they can afford to buy a home.
Another thing that skews the figures is the influence of house prices in the metropolitan areas. The average house price in London is over �300,000 ($600,000), which pushes the overall average price up. The average outside London and its commuter belt would be significantly less than the $380,000 figure.
Also when people buy an apparently expensive house, they are often selling a house for considerably more than they paid for it. The current market value of our house is way more than we could now afford on our less-than-average income, but we bought it fifteen years ago for a third of what it is worth now, and with a mortgage of less than half its value then as we both had some equity from selling flats. Total disconnect between our house value and our income, and yet we can still afford to live here 
But ... having said that, there is still a disconnect between house prices and incomes, and severe problems with over-indebtedness. First time buyers in particular are often getting badly overstretched. My guess is that prices still have quite some way to fall here before the market is back in balance.
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Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
The Bookworm
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sewcrazy
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Any diesel car will run on bio diesel. Not all trucks will though. You can buy the equipment to filter the grease yourself, and get the grease from local restaurants. I buy mine from a local station that combines recycled grease with fresh pressed soy bean oil and 10% diesel fuel.
I do drive a Mercedes. I felt very conspicuous about it at first, but I have gotten over that mostly. It was expensive, but because my dh is in the car business, with a contract at the Chicago MB dealer, we were able to buy it at MB employee cost and 0% interest financing.
LeeAnn
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LeeAnn
Wife of David, mom to Ben, Dennis, Alex, Laura, Philip and our little souls in heaven we have yet to meet
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Is Your Husband Depressed Over...
