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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:24am | IP Logged
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teachingmyown wrote:
Mary Theresa- I am just so glad someone agrees with me! 
I will say one last thing and then drop it. When I popped over there to look, I was hoping to find something different, something that would make it obvious why a new forum was necessary. Instead, it just looks like a duplication of 4Real. Same general format, topics, etc. So, I am not understanding why I need to go to another forum to discuss Coffee presses, for example.
I just don't get it. Okay, I am done. |
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It's colder. This place is colorful, warm, and friendly. That is white and cold. The feeling I get from that and the fact that the content isn't different doesn't really make *me* want to jump ship.
Like someone else said on this thread, I don't have time for ONE forum, muchless two! 
Y'all are stuck with me.
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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MaryM
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 2:23am | IP Logged
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Natalia wrote:
I think the question "What is happening?" is a fair question. Relating it to another message board is not, in my opinion. I think the question stems from a perception: the forum is different. Why is it different? might be a good question to ask ourselves. I think it is a serious question if this community is going to continue serving its purpose: support homeschooling moms in their chosen vocation as wife, mothers and teachers. |
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I think this is a helpful distiniction and I'm glad you shared your perceptions on how the board feels different. As I suggested earlier in the thread feedback and discussion from all of us who frequent these boards can help to determine if it is serving its purpose. It can offer insight into ways to achieve that purpose most effectively.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 2:23am | IP Logged
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*Moderator's Note*
As volunteers, we are happy when our efforts are appreciated and members feel respected and helped. We thank you for judging our ministry by what we do here each day, not by measuring against what is going on elsewhere. If you are happy here, please come, be encouraged, and we thank you. If you have specific suggestions for how to improve this board, please PM a moderator with your ideas. If we cannot meet your needs, please know that we pray you find other resources for support.
At the end of the month, we will have our regularly scheduled retreat and will strive to clarify some tricky issues to include tackling guidelines for PMs (under what conditions to PM, what to do if a PM feels harsh, etc.) In the mean time, if any member is having challenges with PMs and would like help, please do not discuss this matter in public and contact your moderator of choice.
What's happening next? We are praying for all of the volunteers at the FCL message board because we know how much effort, heart, and prayer it takes to do this work. We are supportive of the members there, respecting their right and responsibility to choose where they will find their support. We are also moving onto other topics, please, because to continue this discussion we risk the near occasion of sin (such as envy, wrath, detraction, and pride) when we all desire to grow in virtue (such as charity, patience, kindness, and humility.) Here's my suggestion for a great discussion if you missed it, I'm Maryan and you are?
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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aussieannie
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 5:21am | IP Logged
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Natalia wrote:
| I think women's relationships are complicated. I don't know why. Maybe our emotions get in the way... I have been in a couple of internet groups and it seems to be a cycle. Relationship get close, something happens and the group then has to reassess its purpose, its goals and more importantly, the relationship among the members. The difference between those other boards and this is that there, the conflict was allowed to be discuss and dealt with. I don't think that the same opportunity was given here. |
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Natalia, you are so right about women’s relationships...my mother worked in all female work environment and there were always issues. I’ll tell you something interesting but it has no reference to this thread but just something lovely to share, she found that when she consistently prayed for the lady that was difficult or very unfair to her, they always came round and changed their behaviour completely, but she often faced these sort of challenges.
Anyway, what I did want to reply to was the stopping or re-directing of discussions on the forum as compared to other forums. My experience (on a previous forum that had no religious affiliations but with predominately christian women) is that more often than not in a particularly difficult thread, people do not work out the conflicts themselves and far, far more damage occurs to communities and individuals when things are not stopped and sadly that can mean the ending of a particular conversation is the greater good.
In the more challenging medium of print it is often hard for women to truly capture the spirit of their postings under difficult circumstances since we often rely on so many of our senses to articulate ourselves well.  Then there is the added emphasis of being able to ‘go back’ and read everything as if it were new, unlike real life where things do tend to fade in our memories, we often can’t even recall things with great detail that we would have thought we’d never forget, and often that is a good thing.
I know that the conversations are stopped only with the desire of protecting the close relationships we share on the forum, also as a reminder to all, to keep re-focusing our attitudes towards a more Mary-like example: is this particular or that particular thread living up to it? And interestingly enough, these gentle reminders here make me more 'aware' of the importance of these virtues for me in real life, because the truth is, these virtues are often not emphasised enough or at all in this secular world that we live in.
The other thing to consider is, we have never seen what possibly COULD have happened to the spirit of this forum if some challenging threads were left fairly unchecked or allowed to continue. I for one, am glad that we don't know, only because I have seen the real ugliness of threads not moderated with greater wisdom and care in other places, and this is among women with faith. 
But in saying all that, I do understand perfectly where you are coming from Natalia, because it is my nature too, quite strongly so – I’m one in real life to leave ‘no stone unturned’ in sorting out relationship problems and difficult situations, I think I’ve developed that ‘talk it out to the death’ from my mercury-poisoning years, trying to deal with breakdowns, I look back and think, my mum prayed them down and I talked them down! – I found talking to be very healing and constructive.
The trouble is, I have also found from personal experience in the past, that forums/net is not the greatest place for women to ‘do their normal thing.’ It can be a medium for the reasons mentioned above, that can play on our feminine weaknesses. There is the frustration.  I have always felt this forum very protective and intuitive of women, in encouraging our God-given strengths and tempering with gentleness our weaker moments and of course the grace and goodness displayed here by all far, far outweighs the odd problem.
Natalia wrote:
Why do I bother in coming back and saying all these things? Because I think communities like this are important. Being a homeschooling mom can be, and I think frequently is, isolating. It is a choice that as common as it is now, it is still not mainstream. We still have to face misunderstandings that make us doubt. Many of us don't have the time for fellowship with other women that stay at home moms that send their kids to school have. In my case, I live in a place where Catholics are a 3% of the population. The majority of Catholics choose to send their kids to school. I have support from Protestant friends but I would be missing out the riches and possibilities of true Catholic Homeschooling if I didn't have this group.
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You are so right here too Natalia, this forum has given me great support, inspiration and balance. I say balance because in my isolation I was extremely unaware of the many beautiful options available to me with homeschooling and I felt that maybe only I was experiencing particular problems or given certain crosses or sufferings. The forum showed me that my crosses were definitely not as heavy as others and that in turn gave me empathy, gratefulness and desire to pray for others. I also found there is nothing so beautifully bonding as praying for each other and it is why I believe the WPTTL board the true gem in the crown, it blesses this board over and over again.
I really hope and pray that we will see more of you again. I think of my particular memories of you, the time you shared your thoughts/experiences on Our Lady of Altagracia and when there was great concern of whether you and your family were down in the Hurricane last year, there is many more of course, you have always been a part of this forum.
What makes the forum beautiful is all these blessed mothers and what we all bring to it, that we share our faith and families together in love. 
__________________
Under Her Starry Mantle
Spiritual Motherhood for Priests
Blessed with 3 boys & 3 girls!
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aussieannie
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 5:26am | IP Logged
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THANK GOODNESS for that! 
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Under Her Starry Mantle
Spiritual Motherhood for Priests
Blessed with 3 boys & 3 girls!
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Aggie gal
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 7:21am | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
Yes, it's not either or for me either.
I look at it this way.
We all have different friends, right?
Sometimes I call friend A for whatever reasons.
Sometimes I call friend B for other reasons.
Sometimes I call friend C constantly.
Other times I lean heavier on friend D.
They are all good people whom I like, enjoy and care for and gain much from. At different season in my life, our friendship changes. I connect with each of them in different ways for different reasons. There are times when I'm too busy in my own house to do much of anything with any of them. There are times when I constantly hang out with all of them or maybe just a few.
How I associate with any one of them at any given time is not in any way a reflection of a lack in any other of the friends.
I view the boards the same way.
Did that make any sense at all?  |
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I'm seeing in this light as well. Maybe it's because I haven't been on here a reeeallly long time, or maybe it has something to do with things CONSTANTLY changing in my life, but I feel like I can gather the good from both.
I don't post all that often anyway and that's what eats up most of my computer time. Maybe it would be harder for me to balance the time thing if I posted more often.
__________________
Amy
Married to Rob, Momma to Patrick (17), Braden (14), Nathan (11), Benjamin (10), Aurea (8), Peter (6), Rosie (3) and Baby Blaise
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Lisbet
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 7:48am | IP Logged
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I have no idea of any history behind all of this - or of any infighting off forum. I am always quite floored and skeptical when I hear of such things, from 'knowing' the ladies that post here (and those that have in the past.) I have noticed some no longer posting, but I never assumed anything negative.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
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Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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LisaR
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Red Cardigan wrote:
So I'd like to ask you point blank: are you being threatened/attacked "behind the scenes" (i.e., in emails or private messages) for having said this? I ask because that's exactly what is happening to a friend of mine who has also shared some honest and heartfelt thoughts on this thread. A group of women whom I will not name have decided that she was talking about them personally and are now harassing her in a way that is making me rather angry; in fact, if they don't cut it out I may take action.
So I'd really like to know if the same tactic has been employed against you or against anyone else on this thread. Bullying is bullying, even online, and this needs to stop. |
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thank you Red Cardigan and Moderators for bringing up PM's and proper protocol. I've had a few similar situations as Red describes, and I am glad that it is being recognized and addressed.
As for the New Blog, I think it is a nice spot as well. I personally have a VERY easy time getting "sucked in" and maybe out of selfishness I sure wish I was not "tempted" by more fun places to hang out online
I also must admit that my first response was why? I wish that there had been some statement that said "While 4Real provides xyz and their mission is xyz, FCL will address abc and their primary mission will be abc"
Right now they seem identical to me. Not in a bad way, just makes it harder for me to "get", kwim?
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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Matilda
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
I also must admit that my first response was why? I wish that there had been some statement that said "While 4Real provides xyz and their mission is xyz, FCL will address abc and their primary mission will be abc"
Right now they seem identical to me. Not in a bad way, just makes it harder for me to "get", kwim?
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I whole heartedly agree, Lisa!
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Charlotte (Matilda)
Mom to four (11 , 10, 9 & 5 ) an even split for now
with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
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msclavel
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 8:41am | IP Logged
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Moderators, I am not trying to be difficult, but I need to express myself a bit. If you find this post offensive or hurtful to anyone, feel free to remove it.
The spectrum of reactions to the FCL board opening up and the change in the "atmosphere" here I think reveals a whole lot about where each woman is coming from, her own life experiences and sensibilities. I hesitated to respond because I know without a doubt that a part of my feelings right now are flavored by this.
I struggled with extreme shyness as a child, something I have to work to overcome even now. I lurked here for months and months before I started posting and I even mentioned when I did that I still felt like the "uncool" girl nobody invited crashing the "cool" kids party. And honestly, and I say this (laughing at myself) this often is still why I don't "jump" in to some threads of discussion.
I think Natalia is right, since the Waldorf thread things have been strained and I've seen some great threads start up and sometimes with healthy (and yes sometimes heated) debate start that may have been squelched for fear of a conflagration. Women are tricky aren't we...we love to talk...but sometimes can take things so personally.
The FCL Forum is beautiful. It is indeed wonderful to have so many places that we Catholic families can learn and laugh with one another. But it made me sad to see so many of the women that I loved to discuss with here, not here and now over there. And I admit, the geeky high schooler longing to be accepted in me felt that twinge of "See, they don't like me after all, so they went somewhere else."
And Molly is right, in the end it does come down to a choice, I cannot give my time, emotions and brain power to both...I just can't and that feeling is breaking my heart too.
This forum has blessed my family in ways I can't even quantify.
And now, do I have the courage to post...
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 8:54am | IP Logged
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Maria -- thanks so much for posting ... I understand your grief (and the grief of many of us here at 4real) who feel a sense of change ... stiltedness ... squelched conversations. Please understand that anytime and everytime we've stopped a conversation has been for what the moderators considered VERY good reasons ... you just have to trust us on that.
As far as FCL -- yes, many of the folks who have left here have posted there; but also many of us still here are posting there too. I think the Catholic living community on the Internet is certainly large enough for 2 or more forums of this kind ... I too understand the "barely able to keep up with this one" and certainly not 2, but each member has to decide that for themselves and we need to let this go ... we need to move on and see what we can do to brighten, lighten 4real and not worry any more about FCL or who is there and who is not ... This is my personal opinion!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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guitarnan
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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I have read these posts and prayed hard and wondered what to say. Angie's gracious reminder that we must respect everyone's choices reminds me of when another Catholic homeschooling message board decided to go private, charging members for access, and how some long-time members, including me, left the group for various reasons related to those changes. Change is hard. We all are at different places along God's pathway for us; 4Real has helped and will, God willing, continue to help connect us all and provide an opportunity for support and fellowship.
I must also point out that I have noticed on other forums I regularly visit, not related to faith or homeschooling at all, a recent tendency toward dispute, wrangling via PM, and argument, and I'm wondering if there's a connection. How can all the forums I visit be having problems at the same time?
We're living in pretty uncertain times. Elections, economic problems, attacks on faith and family values, bizarre news - I write for a living and I read about all of these woes each and every day. Perhaps there's some spillover, I don't know, that affects some of us here more than others. There's certainly stress in my home related to finances and extended family problems; sometimes it is very, very hard for me to stay focused on my own little family and keep both feet planted on terra firma. (Your prayers have helped with this, in countless ways, and I thank you.)
I am sad to see any member leave 4Real, even if she states it's temporary (Lent, for example) or to focus more on her own family and faith, because I value each and every one of you so much. Still, I respect everyone's choice to visit, lurk, post, respond or leave, because I would want you to respect my choices to do the same.
We're all in relationship here, and no relationship is stagnant. We all change. Look at our marriages, our family lives, our extended IRL friendships. My mom has had friendships last over 60 years - things ebb and flow, grow and change, and still the relationship is there - certainly not the same as a childhood friendship, but friendship nonetheless.
Whatever everyone decides, and whenever changes take place, I hope these decisions are made after prayer and, as President Lincoln once famously said, "with malice toward none, with charity for all."
Dearest moderators, you're in my prayers as you prepare for your retreat this month. You have my heartfelt thanks for all your hard work.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:08am | IP Logged
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Gosh, I have struggled with how to respond to this thread. And I am still not so sure exactly what I want to say, but I will give it a shot.
First of all, I am a moderator here, which means that I am deeply committed to the success of this board. I LOVE the ladies here, and this board has been a lifeline to me in some very lonely and difficult times in my life.
Sure, women have come and gone, and others have stayed, but such is life. I can't see myself leaving it any time in the near future. But who really knows, right?
As for the women who left, some I stay in touch with by other means, blogs, emails and the like, and I still consider them dear friends. So when I found an opportunity for yet another way to converse with them, I jumped at it because I still feel I can learn much from these women.
Does that make me disloyal to my friends here? I sure don't see it that way.
I have friends I see at church and friends I see at the park and other friends I call on the phone. Does my relationship with one necessarily make me disloyal to another? Obviously that is ridiculous, but the conversation here implies that it does make me disloyal, or that I must have a "problem" with my park friends because I visited my church friends, or found new friends at the library!
Will my time at the other forum necessarily limit my time here? I don't think so, but it is possible. But you know, that is my right, to do with my time as I please. Should I be judged for it? Must my motives be questioned?
There are wonderful women at both fora. Why does that have to be an issue? There is certainly room in this big wide interworld for more than one. So what if they overlap? Don't Walmart and Target overlap a good bit? And yet there seems to be room in the world for them both.
I really like what an earlier member said about chrisms. If you like the atmosphere here, stay. If you like it there, go there. Some of us like a little of both. And why not?
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:10am | IP Logged
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To echo what Mary has said and comment on what Maria says here:
msclavel wrote:
| Women are tricky aren't we...we love to talk...but sometimes can take things so personally. |
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This is at the heart of the matter. If everyone were thick-skinned and never took anything personally, then this board -- and all relationships in life -- could be handled differently (but not necessarily better). But that is not the case. We must minister to all and do our best as a board, as moderators and as Christian mothers to take care of each other. As a dear friend of mine has said to me time and again, it is better to choose to be charitable over being right. That is a hard thing for me, because humility *isn't* one of my stronger virtues, but she's right. And sometimes that means letting things -- conversations -- go. Sometimes as moderators we intervene to help that process along, but we never *want* to "squelch" good conversation. That's *my* personal opinion and two cents!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Maryan
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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I think all of have been aware of the effect of the "waldorf discussion" on the 4Real board. But I think I have a little bit of a different point of view about it:
Growing up in a large family, inevitably there were fights. And some of them got nasty. After particularly nasty fights, my folks were quick to nip squabbles in the bud... until they could trust us to "play nicely."
I think learning to forgive, get along, and slowly build up your trust level again to the point of friendship is a part of life.
Trust is a tricky thing. And it's a slow process to build it up.
And trust in online friendships is trickier. Because of the medium, a person can be nastier... because many times you don't have a truly personal relationship with the other person and you're not held accountable for what you say. You can't see that your words really inflict a wound. You don't see the tears in someone's eyes or hear the lump in their throat.
On the other hand, sometimes you don't intend to be mean... but people can misunderstand you.
I think the Waldorf thread made us realize that. And we are more careful about what we bring up and what we say. I know I wasn't personally attacked, but I felt like retreating into my family... because I know they love me and I trust them.
Is it sad that we experienced how personal things can get? Yes.
Is it sad that our thoughts aren't flowing as easy? No. I think that's normal. I personally think if we went right back to how things were, we would skip a step in "healing from an injury." Our trust wouldn't really be built up. We'd be pretending everything was fine.
I'm of the opinion that time does heal all wounds. But it does take time. I think if we take the time to make a personal connection again... it helps the healing.
__________________
Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
A Lee in the Woudes
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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aussieannie wrote:
| to keep re-focusing our attitudes towards a more Mary-like example: is this particular or that particular thread living up to it? |
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I think Anne has given us excellent advice to follow. How can you be Mary to the group? Is your post Marian-centered? When you post, do you have a Marian-voice to offer?
There are now two lovely Catholic hsing forum:
* One that is gentle, thoughtful, sensitive, likes good conversation, and is good.
* The other that is jazzy, lively, open-ended, likes good conversation, is good.
We hope you'll stay and we don't mind if you visit your friends in cyperspace. I might stop in for a visit and cup of coffee as well. Pick your personality (or your mood for the day) then pick your forum.
God will make it all good.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
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Ruth
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
I LOVE the ladies here, and this board has been a lifeline to me in some very lonely and difficult times in my life.
As for the women who left, some I stay in touch with by other means, blogs, emails and the like, and I still consider them dear friends. So when I found an opportunity for yet another way to converse with them, I jumped at it because I still feel I can learn much from these women.
Does that make me disloyal to my friends here? I sure don't see it that way.
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Thank you so much, Theresa. I could've written this. God bless you.
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Ruth
mom to 7 miracles
My family blog
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Martha
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:45am | IP Logged
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wow.
just wow.
I have lots of thoughts after returning and reading some of the later replies...
All charitable I think. I hope.
I think the moderators here have done a very good job. I think discussions in the past and now have been very open and rarely overly moderated. In fact, I think this board goes out of it's way to avoid interferring moderation when possible. I feel comfortable having discussions here that I really wouldn't elsewhere. I didn't think it closed of the waldorf thing per se. I thought it closed because some of that discussion gave the moderators pause for thought in why and how they do things. Not negative. Just a moment to take a deep breath and a deeper look at things with a charitable goal in mind. Shouldn't we all do this from time to time in relationships? Isn't it often that a conflict of some sort is what pushes us to actually do it? And I didn't think the waldorf issue was big in and of itself either. But you know what? this homeschooling thing we do? It's PERSONAL! Nothing strikes a deeper more cutting blow that the feathery touch of criticism about how we are raising our children and imparting the faith to them. It doesn't even have to be directed at us personally for us to take it that way. I'm pretty thick skinned I think, but I'm a mother through and through. Does this mean we shouldn't have such discussions? Of course not! It just the nature of the beast of an honest and open discussion on such a sensitive and worthy subject.
As for blogs taking away from here. I don't know. I don't think mine does, but I'm sure some do go that route. I think many of the posters here view their blog as a family/friends thing. So it may come first, but so does so many things. I have had a coop in my home for several months now. It comes before this board. But that is not a reflection of my not wanting to be active here. It's a reflection of what I think we all feel - that our family and the HERE (as in the physical here) and now is always more important than any message board.
I love this board.
I don't care who PMs me. If they are unreasonable - I'll send it to a moderator for a second opinion and let it be. No point in adding fuel to the fire. Most of the time, my PMs are ladies who aren't as um... outspoken .. as me saying they are glad someone said what I said.
I like that the archives have become a genuine goldmine of information.
I like how willing everyone is to share and assist each other with homeschooling tips and encouragement and just plain old pats on the back from fellow mothers in the trenches.
I like how we can disagree and still be friends and still feel like members in the same family of Christ.
I hope this board continues for many years to come.
I've met so many of you in real life.
I've shared personal emails, letters, and phone calls with others of you.
Change is a part of life.
But it's also a part of growing in friendship.
Will you only like me if I stay the same and become stale?
Or can we share our lives and this homeschooling journey as we grow and change?
so there's my thoughts.
now I have to go because in about 10 mintues 10 more kids are going to show up for our medieval coop and I need to finish a cup of coffee so I'm ready to dive in!
Again I hope that all came out in the charity it was truely intended to be in.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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msclavel
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 9:56am | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
There are now two lovely Catholic hsing forum:
* One that is gentle, thoughtful, sensitive, likes good conversation, and is good.
* The other that is jazzy, lively, open-ended, likes good conversation, is good.
We hope you'll stay and we don't mind if you visit your friends in cyperspace. I might stop in for a visit and cup of coffee as well. Pick your personality (or your mood for the day) then pick your forum.
God will make it all good. |
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Cay, you are a treasure! And Maryan and Theresa and Martha and all of you!
And let me just add, my post was not about questioning motives or anger, just trying to help myself and maybe others understand that we must always be aware that our reactions, heck even how we perceive a situation is always colored by who we are. And yes, I don't adapt quickly to these types of changes. I don't think I'll ever not feel like the awkward teenager  and I think I'm even okay with that. And one thing is for sure, I do KNOW that all my dear friends here and at the FCL board are okay with it too. It is VERY good.
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stacykay
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 08 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1858
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| Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:15am | IP Logged
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I don't have anything to say except that I feel so blessed to have here a wonderful group of moms who are so willing to share their ideas, love, prayers, support, laughs, wisdom, pain, concerns, joy, Faith ...themselves with us.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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