| Author | |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 11:57am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
MaryM wrote:
Melancholics have a tendency toward introspection but for me that has never been about writing. Mine is all in my head and I have a hard time articulating it in writing. I don't think being introspective manifests iself in all as having a desire to write/journal. Plus as an introvert/introspective person there is no way that I am going to share the inner me with the world through a blog. Okay in my case only a couple people... but seriously to me my inner self is pretty private. For that reason I think many melancholics would actually not be able to blog (private blogging might be different.)
|
|
|
But aren't most writers and other artists melancholic? I suppose for many that would mean keeping it private or expressing that introspection in a less personal way (music performed or a painting). But, I also see melancholics being the ones to provide that insight into the human soul because they examine it so closely, and being best able to express it because of their perfectionism (read, discipline in their particular craft).
Granted, the despair of the melancholic is often seen in artists as well. Often, it seems it is that torture that makes them "cry out" in some profound expression.
Now, obviously, we aren't all geniuses or artists to the extent of the "greats," and many melancholics probably never feel the need to show their art (be it a journal, a performance, or a composition) to the work publicly, but I do see melancholics as creative. That was my perception, but I don't have many melancholic tendencies and none of my family really does, though, so my understanding is pretty limited.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
insegnante wrote:
| It's very clear that I'm mostly like a melancholic but I don't understand the idea of melancholics being organized and tidy because they are melancholic. Wow, not me at all. |
|
|
I think its the perfectionism of the melancholic that has these tendencies.
I find my choleric side creates the perfectionism, and its the sanguine part of me that let's it cripple me. Like, why clean one spot off the floor if I don't have the time or ability to scrub the entire floor as I'd like? So, nothing is clean since I can't clean everything, if that makes sense.
So, maybe like me, your perfectionism isn't used quite as positively as it could be. OR it plagues you so much that you can't see how clean your house really is and you would completely be aghast to see mine 
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
PDyer
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1043
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm going to order the book right now so I can think about this topic in depth.
Melancholic/choleric,
__________________
Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
insegnante wrote:
 I'm not often comfortable really "putting myself out there" on the Internet with my thoughts about deep, important topics. |
|
|
Totally understand 
insegnante wrote:
| It's very clear that I'm mostly like a melancholic but I don't understand the idea of melancholics being organized and tidy because they are melancholic. Wow, not me at all. |
|
|
This is me also! I'm organized in the sense that I know where things are but to an outsider -  (= mess, clutter). My understanding of this is the perfectionism/lack of organization/procrasticnation links. Barring the ability to have a perfectly ordered home bordering on Martha Stewart, I don't really even attempt since it would fall short of what I would want. And since I do have enough phlegmatic as my secondary temperament the disorganization really doesn't bother me (until it all builds slowly to the point where I suddenly and seemingly out of the blue have a reaction to it -ie. melancholic reaction). Got to work on this. 
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:11pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CrunchyMom wrote:
| But aren't most writers and other artists melancholic? |
|
|
Yes, most writers are probably melancholics, but not all melancholics are writers. And as I mentioend at the end, I do have a creative nature it just does not manifest in writing - it's in other outlets.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SuzanneG
Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5465
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
| it helps me keep my expectations realistic. |
|
|
This is where the temperment-concept has really helped us. This is key! And, my dd are still really young....I can imagine it helping even more as dc get older.
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MaryM wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| But aren't most writers and other artists melancholic? |
|
|
Yes, most writers are probably melancholics, but not all melancholics are writers. And as I mentioend at the end, I do have a creative nature it just does not manifest in writing - it's in other outlets. |
|
|
Right, I guess I was just thinking of it in the context of Susan's theory that most blogging homeschoolers are melancholic not that all melancholic homeschoolers are bloggers.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hopalenik
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 17 2006
Location: Connecticut
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi,
I read the book and loved it too. I think it is very useful however, my spiritual advisor was opposed to women reading the book and then labeling their children and husbands. He strongly felt that we as women, would get too carried away with the labels and end up using the labels as an excuse for our behaviour, or other family members or as a manipulative manner to get the results that we want from others-subconsciously. As in I am melancholic and prone to moodiness therefore, I do not need to work on overcoming my moodiness or perfection because that is just how God made me,etc....or my husband is perfectionistic, choleric and therefore I need to always do this that or the other thing to prevent him from acting this way....It is hard to explain without giving specifics...But my spiritual advisor spent 2 hours railing at our group of homeschooling moms for essentially taking this knowledge and using it in a manipulative way....I think what tipped him off was when he heard a preteen boy make a comment about a younger sibling...something about excusing bad behaviour because he is just melancholic...
This all happened several years ago in our homeschooling group and since then I can absolutely see his wisdom. I learned a great deal about myself and my children from reading the book once, however, I will never again pick it up or continue to refer to it because I could definitely see that there was a period of time where I and others were "labeling" the people around us. And when you label, you are not really looking deeper to find the means to correct faults or tendencies to lead yourselves, your children or others towards holiness. Am I making sense or just wrambling, I can't tell because I am really tired right now?
__________________
Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think that makes sense, Holly. It would be dangerous if the knowledge were used in that way--to manipulate or justify bad behavior.
However, I think it is a mistake on your priest's part to make such a blanket statement like "women shouldn't study temperaments." That seems sketchy to me. I would think that warnings of how the knowledge can be misused are fine and even fruitful, but all knowledge can be used in a negative way. Even scripture can be misused quoted out of context in such a way as to justify bad behavior or theology. And people who are going to label will do just that whether they are given new labels to use or not, imo.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 3:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CrunchyMom wrote:
| However, I think it is a mistake on your priest's part to make such a blanket statement like "women shouldn't study temperaments." That seems sketchy to me. I would think that warnings of how the knowledge can be misused are fine and even fruitful, but all knowledge can be used in a negative way. Even scripture can be misused quoted out of context in such a way as to justify bad behavior or theology. And people who are going to label will do just that whether they are given new labels to use or not, imo. |
|
|
I have to laugh. Your spiritual director is making a blanket statement and judgement toward all women by telling you this! 
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 4:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| However, I think it is a mistake on your priest's part to make such a blanket statement like "women shouldn't study temperaments." That seems sketchy to me. I would think that warnings of how the knowledge can be misused are fine and even fruitful, but all knowledge can be used in a negative way. Even scripture can be misused quoted out of context in such a way as to justify bad behavior or theology. And people who are going to label will do just that whether they are given new labels to use or not, imo. |
|
|
I have to laugh. Your spiritual director is making a blanket statement and judgement toward all women by telling you this! |
|
|
Now, there I go typing and pushing in haste! That wasn't very clear. What I meant to say is that Father lumping all the women together is making generalities and pigeonholing, exactly what he's exhorting the women to NOT do with their families!
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SuzanneG
Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5465
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 5:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
Now, there I go typing and pushing in haste! |
|
|
How very Choleric of you, Jenn.....
JennGM wrote:
| What I meant to say is that Father lumping all the women together is making generalities and pigeonholing, exactly what he's exhorting the women to NOT do with their families! |
|
|
I got a good chuckle out of that too!!
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 7:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, I'm cracking up here!
For us, knowing about temperaments is a tiny tool in a huge toolbox to help our family to live well together. Nothing more...nothing less.
I don't see using these terms as a way to label or pigeon-hole or excuse-make for people anymore than saying I am an Irish hot-head or a baseball fan or a mother or...is labeling, pigeon-holing, or excuse-making. I just see the words as a way to describe and the centuries of learning associated with them as a place to learn about ourselves. From there, we can look at the fascinating, fun, and often pointed reality of our ingrain tendencies. Then, as faithful people, we can stive to become Christ-like through knowing about ourselves and understanding others. For example, when I'm sharing about life with my sanguine son, I'm not harming him by using *sanguine* to describe him anymore than when I describe him as my son or an athlete or a late-bloomer or... In this situation, the word helped a few moms to *click* and hopefully understand each other...and help each other. I suppose any tool can be misused. I guess the key is to use the tool in a way that is generous, kind, helpful, and proportionate.
Hey, Laura, I do think that you might like the Bennett (sp) book. If you want to borrow it, let me know:).
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hopalenik
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 17 2006
Location: Connecticut
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: March 12 2008 at 9:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi,
I thought I would further explain this. I happened upon the book within a week or so of it hitting on the market. I read it and loved it and then passed it on to all of my friends in our little homeschooling community. This particular community has a lot of third order Fransicans and several mentoring Franscican priests who are very holy and very involved in the daily lives of my friends and their children. In fact, they run a weekly day for the older boys to come and work and pray with them. As is sometimes happens in close knit groups, all of us were discussing this book and our temperments and our kids and our husbands definietely too much. So this temperment labeling thing became quite the phenomena over the course of say three or four months. I am gathering that women were coming into the confessional with statements to the effect that I am sanguine and prone to oversleeping and so the day went bad and I yelled...that kind of thing. Not done intentionally or consciously but it seemed to become the raging vocabularly. Well this inevitably became passed on to the children and when Father heard some kids making statements like that he was a bit perturbed.
In essence, his point was that self knowledge was necessary but labels become reductionistic. And we are fallen, therefore prone to lazily accepting the labels or temperments as reality instead of possibly looking for the root causes of our nature and instead of striving towards holiness and overcoming those weaknesses. And that it would be very easy for say a choleric spouse who is married to a phlegmatic spouse and happens to have read all about the temperments to subtely manipulate situations without actually realizing it. His recommendation in our monthly formation classes was that we avoid all labels for ourselves and our children and family.
Looking back on the situation two years later I can really agree with him, although I felt humiliated at the time. For the longest time, I just reduced my oldest child who is prone to day dreaming as melancholic..that is just the way she is. But I should have spent the time, teaching her how to focus and cope with her tendencies towards distraction and daydreaming. I viewed myself as a melancholic/chloeric who was prone towards self pity and moodiness instead of praying for the graces to work through those sinful tendencies. I can't speak for the other women but I would be willing to bet that one or two of them were headed in the same direction that I was.
Now I do think that reading the book can be a very good thing. For me, I realized that yes God does create some people with more of a disposition towards depression or self absorption than others and yes that these particular qualities when harnessed properly can lead to the artistic or other gifts. So in that sense it freed me from the guilt that I had always harbored that there was something extra wrong about me. It also helped me to realize that my husband will never inherently understand those tendencies in me because his temperment doesn't foster those particular qualities. It it helped put me on the path towards a gentler learning style with my daughter who is not a competitive independent type of child. All of those things were good but this knowledge can definitely be used in the wrong way. Particularly, if you get together in a close knit group session as we did and start comparing notes.
So I just thought I would throw in my two cents, for anyone who has not read the book yet. As I stated before I think it is a great tool that should be read once and then left to sink in over time but not become the end all. Dragging the book out every time you have a problem with someone to gage their temperment and therefore modify your response is probably headed in the manipulative arena.
Does that make more sense? I am not really good at communicating the thoughts roaming through my head at times.
__________________
Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Maryan
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 02 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3145
|
| Posted: March 13 2008 at 8:43am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Okay... here's another question. Is it "manipulative" to use what you know about a person's temperament to motivate them for "GOOD."
For example, I know my son likes games. If he's in an uncooperative mood, and I'm asking him to do a chore. I often try to sugarcoat the chore that by saying: "Fast runner, would you run up to Nahnie's house and get me some eggs. Let's see how fast you can do it."
That request goes over much better than just a straight "JP will you go get me some eggs at Nahnie's house." However, I do use straight requests when he's amiable and my request isn't interrupting something, etc.
Most of the time it's not calculated manipulation on m part... as a sanguine, it's truly second nature to be "charming." iykwim.
I guess I think "manipulative" has a BAD connotation... and I consider what I'm doing "good people skills."
Thoughts?
__________________
Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
A Lee in the Woudes
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 13 2008 at 12:11pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
hopalenik wrote:
In essence, his point was that self knowledge was necessary but labels become reductionistic. And we are fallen, therefore prone to lazily accepting the labels or temperments as reality instead of possibly looking for the root causes of our nature and instead of striving towards holiness and overcoming those weaknesses. And that it would be very easy for say a choleric spouse who is married to a phlegmatic spouse and happens to have read all about the temperments to subtely manipulate situations without actually realizing it. His recommendation in our monthly formation classes was that we avoid all labels for ourselves and our children and family.
....Does that make more sense? I am not really good at communicating the thoughts roaming through my head at times. |
|
|
It makes sense, Holly. The first time you posted made sense to me. I still don't like his generalizations. I understnad where he's coming from, but I don't think he needed to come down so hard. Like we said, it's a tool. And it's a classic tool in our Catholic toolbox, not some pop psychology thing.
It does help sometimes to have labels in communicating with others. I can go on and on and on about situations at home, sometimes revealing too much. Wouldn't it be more charitable to explain things, like I have hard time understanding some melancholic tendencies in my husband without revealing all.
But on the flip side, I have been in groups where we did talk too much about it. I don't think children should know the names and descriptions. My aunts and mother got together with Fr. Hock's booklet and analyzed everyone. Two things I observed -- I don't think someone can truly answer the questions until they are much older (late teens). The other observation, many did not want to be labeled. The negative sides of the temperaments were put on display and pointed out.
So, in my wishy washy way, I agree with Father somewhat. I have found it so helpful for my spiritual life and my married life to get some self-nderstanding. I have a really hard time cracking that (this ) nut. Although Mrs. Bennett didn't say my temperaments were clashing with each other, I feel like they are.
I don't have time to quote, but to go back a few posts. MaryM, I LOVE that you take time and are deliberate about everything you do. I was just saying to dh how I wish I had that kind of personality. I just run at the mouth. I speak and write in haste, but my melancholic nature regrets it all. I step forward and delegate and make speeches, then worry what everyone thinks about me. And then take back or change what I said or wrote. If I only would take the time beforehand!
I think it was in Bennett's book that explained the perfectionism and order might not necessarily get implemented, because if it's not going to get done right, don't do it yet. Queen of procrastination here. I have organization and projects all in my mind, and nothing completed.
More thoughts, but I'm actually going to stop procrastinating on lunch and hit send.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: March 13 2008 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Okay, I have something to ask and probably it's of you, Jenn, since I think you know more about Fr. Hock. This is a really pertainent topic here at our house and has been since Chirstmas. When my mom was here in Dec. she saw my copy of the book and read it. She then went on a spree of trying to figure everyone's temperament. She REALLY wished she would have had it as a young wife as she felt in looking at her and my dad's temperaments that much of how she reacts to him increased his tendencies toward what she is frustrated with. The information on spouces really hit home for her. Anyway, she was so full of enthusisam for this book, she bought one for my youngest brother who is getting married this fall and for my sister and her family. So, I haven't talked to my sister yet directly about this but I heard through my mother that she (my sister) was not particualrly excited and has reservations about temperament information in general. Something about the Catholic priest who had written about them promoted this (who I assume would be Fr. Hock?) being problematic in some way. Have you any knowledge of this aspect. Again, I haven't heard directly from her what the concern is and my mother doesn't always get the info right.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: March 13 2008 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MaryM wrote:
| Something about the Catholic priest who had written about them promoted this (who I assume would be Fr. Hock?) being problematic in some way. Have you any knowledge of this aspect. Again, I haven't heard directly from her what the concern is and my mother doesn't always get the info right. |
|
|
Mary, I'm certainly not an expert on Fr Hock, but The Four Temperaments book has an imprimatur and nihil obstat from back when it was published in 1934, when presumably imprimaturs were reliable. here
Now, it looks like one of the online sites that popped up when I googled was a sedevacantist site, so perhaps your mom heard something about some sedevacantists promoting the idea and that was what concerned her.
Purely guesswork but I think the book is fine and certainly the four temperaments concept has a noble Catholic pedigree and is not considered to be new-agey or anything.... see Catholic Encyclopedia from 1911
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 14 2008 at 8:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
What Willa said...that would be my conclusion. I have not heard anything negative on Father Hock.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Temperaments???????
