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JennGM
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CrunchyMom wrote:
That makes sense to me, Jenn. The melancholic and choleric seem to be the most organized and committed. I imagine a choleric drive could be useful in both homeschooling and in keeping a blog. Plus, that melancholic tendency to be introspective.
I'm sanguine-choleric and am consistently inconsistent. They fight a lot, lol, and I'll be early and organized for everything for a while and then go through another stretch where I am late and flakey. That's why I think I could do a blog well for a few months, and then it would fizzle once it wasn't new and exciting. |
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Now my temperament may be driven and organized, but my sins reveal that I'm not. I'm anything but....
And I blog when I can and feel like. I don't do it every day. It's my blog and I can write when I want to.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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stefoodie
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| I'm sanguine-choleric and am consistently inconsistent. They fight a lot, lol, and I'll be early and organized for everything for a while and then go through another stretch where I am late and flakey. That's why I think I could do a blog well for a few months, and then it would fizzle once it wasn't new and exciting. |
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consistently inconsistent -- that's me!! It's actually characteristic of how I blog too. Stretches of early and organized = more consistent blogging, organized posts that actually make sense... then I go through the flakey stage and my posts reflect them -- they're more disorganized, just a bunch of thoughts that probably make sense only to me.... and then the cycle repeats. So while your interest may fizzle, it may also come back in cycles.
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Maryan
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Jenn, You're bringing up all books I love! David Isaacs is a bedside book. But no... I was referring to the Fr. Hock book that you linked to. It was my first introduction to the temperaments when I lived with Una. I believe it was little and green? (It was her book).
Since then, I just haven't found it (on the web or elsewhere) ...because I couldn't remember his name!! So thanks for the link!
And re: blogging and temperaments: This san/mel blogs to be social...and sometimes to share introspective thoughts. If I can't get out of my house to see friends and family (or if I can't have them over), it's nice to at least have them "visit" us via internet.
And secondly I lack discipline, so if my teacher cousins and other homeschoolers are "checking up" on me... it helps motivate me to do what I'm supposed to do. Mature? No. But I feel like educating my child is important, so whatever it takes to motivate me I will do.
And I agree with the heredity comment, Jenn. When my family took temperament tests, most of them were phlegmatic like my Dad. My mother is preodominantly Choleric/Melancholic. Two sisters are combinations of choleric. I'm the only sanguine... but I've never felt that it came out of nowhere. My mother's sister and my Dad's brother are *completely* sanguine (and my godparents)... so I've always thought that their genes came through the line somehow to me -- kind of like a recessive gene? We have the same loud laughs, tendencies to overeat, and love a good party.
A little bit of the subject but in regards to temperament assessments: I do feel as you get older, it's harder to see what is temperament and what is habit and what is virtue. I think it's easier to see in younger people and children. Hopefully after working on our sins for so many years... God's grace is doing a number on our weaknesses (please???) and makes temperament study in adults a little trickier?? Does that make sense?
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Maryan
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SusanJ
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Maryan wrote:
A little bit of the subject but in regards to temperament assessments: I do feel as you get older, it's harder to see what is temperament and what is habit and what is virtue. I think it's easier to see in younger people and children. Hopefully after working on our sins for so many years... God's grace is doing a number on our weaknesses (please???) and makes temperament study in adults a little trickier?? Does that make sense? |
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I think this is really true. My dh is mostly choleric but has a good bit of melancholic, too. From my perspective those melancholic characteristics seem to be where he has overcome his choleric weaknesses with virtue. I'm pretty much the opposite (I've overcome a few melancholic tendencies and they seem to show up as choleric). But I see, too, where bad habits have developed sort of against my temperament. When I read the Bennet's description of melancholics I thought it was completely me except for the very first sentence which was something like, "When the melancholic's husband comes home he finds a clean, well-ordered home, dinner on the table, and clean, smiling children." I wish. And that's why I do know that I'm melancholic. I think a lot of sanguines, for example, might be able to let the messy house go in favor of a great day of crafting or something. I have really high ideals for my home life and drive myself to despair when I don't measure up.
It's interesting to hear from sanguines and cholerics about their blogging. It sounds like you get "flakey" or just involved in something else and don't blog for awhile. The long gaps in posts on my blog pretty much reflect times when I was really fighting against despair.
Yeah, have I mentioned that I'm melancholic 
Susan
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CrunchyMom
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Susan, just think about that super long list of melancholic saints and cheer up, lol.
I think the worst thing about seeing my temperament sorter was that there were like 2 saints they could list as sanguine, St. Peter and St. Francis de Sales. While they are both great saints, the lack of quantity was disheartening for me.
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SusanJ
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I thought the Bennets were sort of implying that melancholics are the most likely to be saints--if they don't despair first. I don't know if that's encouraging or not!
But, I don't think its strictly possible for some temperaments to be less able to becomes saints. God gives us all grace, right? I'm wondering if its just easier to recognize melancholics as saints.
Susan
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Maryan
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Susan, speaking of dh's and temperaments --
My dh has a lot of melancholic tendencies and requests certain things of our house, our eating habits, etc.
As a sanguine, I would like to take my kids to Dunkin' Donuts every day; eat hotdogs cuz their fast, easy and yummy; let the kids watch movies daily; play the radio and dance in the kitchen; let the house be a mess, etc. But as a sanguine, I want to please people (namely my dh)... so my house is *way* cleaner for my temperament; we do D.D. just on feast days (if I get out of my house); we limit movies to Sundays, and I return to a website three times before I buy anything; etc... all through the influence of my melancholic dh.  Although...my less dominant melancholic side helps me feel guilty too.
Again not really mature self-starting motives, but my dh has influenced better habits in me!! Although he hasn't cured me of my ice cream sundae every night and a loaded cup of coffee in the morning.  
What virtue do I bring to the marriage? An aid to a melancholic's tendency to scrupulosity? Hopefully?
And no despairing...I guarantee that your version of a messy house equals my version of a clean house! 
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Maryan
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missionfamily
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I think melancholics are often our mystics, ourprolific writers, and have an innate tedency toward seeing matters through a spiritual lens. In addition, reflection and contemplation are natural to their temperments. So it would be natural that many of our great saints were melancholic.
When I was younger, I always came up choleric sanguine with a few melancholic traits. Now I come up choleric melancholic with a few sanguine traits. I know that I am much more serious now than I was then, but I still love to be the life of the party on occassion. It's interesing to me.
Understanding temperments since I was a teen has helped me navigate interpersonal reltionships many, many times in love and understanding rather than frustration.
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Colleen
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folklaur
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I really am having a hard time with this....
If I recognize traits in my child, and I read this book, and I realize he is sanguine, it is just fine to call him that (as it seems that yes, everyone DOES know what they "are" but me !) It is okay to use the term ( as no one has seemed to have any issues with calling themselves sanguine or choleric or whatever and also sees no problem with pegging their dh's or children with their particular temperaments.
However, if I read a book, and realize my child is ADHD, to call him that would be labeling, and possibly self-fulfilling, and something to avoid.
I am really struggling to understand the difference.
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CrunchyMom
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SusanJ wrote:
I thought the Bennets were sort of implying that melancholics are the most likely to be saints--if they don't despair first. I don't know if that's encouraging or not!
But, I don't think its strictly possible for some temperaments to be less able to becomes saints. God gives us all grace, right? I'm wondering if its just easier to recognize melancholics as saints.
Susan |
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Even if its not strictly true, I find it frustrating to not have specific examples in the lives of the saints on how to overcome my particular weaknesses, yk? And for so many of the easily seen outward signs of their sanctity to be so contrary to my own temperament but naturally part of theirs, it kind of makes me go, "hey, no fair, but it was easier for them."
So, even if it isn't really easier for them and there are other signs of sanctity besides being a contemplative, etc... that maybe others don't recognize as readily in sanguines, it still makes me FEEL discouraged, and as a sanguine, my feelings dictate a lot
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Maryan
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Oh Laura... I agree with your issue with labelling!!
I don't tell my child what I think is their temperament because in my opinion they lack the maturity to understand that they need to rise above weaknesses, etc. But knowing it helps me to motivate them to rise above, to best educate them, etc. iykwim.
For example, a sanguine child is best motivated to do his work if it's fun and involves other people. My melancholic child needs some alone time or he becomes very grumpy, but he is easily motivated by ideals. I need to stay disciplined with a phlegmatic, so they learn the good habit of chores. A choleric child will be driven to do all he needs to do, but I need to temper how he tells everyone else to do everything that they need to do...
And as an adult, my dh and I took a temperament test together as part of marriage prep. Knowing our temperaments has helped us better understand each other (not that the results were surprises to either of us since we knew each other pretty well). I know a messy house would be too much for him to handle... and he knows that I need something "fun" to do after weeks of staying home with the kids.
However, telling a child that they are "such and such" bothers me. One of my son's has a hard time greeting people.... someone made the mistake of calling him shy. So I told him "you're not shy, you just need to practice more on greeting people." But to tell him "you are ___" before he understands what habits and virtues are does seem like labelling and pigeon holing.
And a temperament book is just an aid. No one can tell you exactly what you "are" or who your child is. If it doesn't help you, I wouldn't use it!!
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Maryan
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SuzanneG
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cactus mouse wrote:
It is okay to use the term ( as no one has seemed to have any issues with calling themselves sanguine or choleric or whatever and also sees no problem with pegging their dh's or children with their particular temperaments.
However, if I read a book, and realize my child is ADHD, to call him that would be labeling, and possibly self-fulfilling, and something to avoid.
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I think using personality traits, temperament names, learning disabilities, etc.....all those things that now have actual names can be helpful as long as you're using them to HELP you with your child, personal/spiritual growth, within your marriage, etc. If it helps to recognize these traits and then learn how to deal with them....that's helpful.
If all these things are used as EXCUSES, then "labeling" is not helpful.
I don't think it's bad to label a child ADHD or whatever, as long as you're using the definition, research, advice to help your child. But, if you're using the label as an excuse for his/her behavior, then the label is probably not helpful.
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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Maryan wrote:
I don't tell my child what I think is their temperament because in my opinion they lack the maturity to understand that they need to rise above weaknesses, etc. But knowing it helps me to motivate them to rise above, to best educate them, etc. iykwim. |
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Agree! I wouldn't tell dc that they are "sanguine" or "extrovert" or even "dyslexic".......it's a tool for me....not them
ETA: Yes....even the "shy" label bothers me too. I say the same thing as Maryan when people say my dd is shy.
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Suzanne in ID
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Maryan
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I should just add that this is just how I view the temperaments theory as a tool!! I'm certainly not a Catholic psychologist!! I've read a few books and have a simple way of seeing the temperaments and have found understanding this theory helpful as a wife and mother. And typically sanguine, I thought taking the test with my dh was good fun!
But I do think they are just a theory and if you don't find them helpful to you or your family. I wouldn't even give them a second thought!
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Maryan
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folklaur
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Thanks for the explanations - it did help.
So....I took the two test that were linked...
The CatholicMatch (which seemed a little more well-done) said I am Melancholic/Choleric. (58% / 42%)
The other one said I am Choleric/Melancholic.(43%/30% - but also 13%Phlegmatic and 15% Sanguine)
Now I need to read thru this thread again...
ETA: the percentages
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Mackfam
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cactus mouse wrote:
I really am having a hard time with this....
If I recognize traits in my child, and I read this book, and I realize he is sanguine, it is just fine to call him that (as it seems that yes, everyone DOES know what they "are" but me !) It is okay to use the term ( as no one has seemed to have any issues with calling themselves sanguine or choleric or whatever and also sees no problem with pegging their dh's or children with their particular temperaments.
However, if I read a book, and realize my child is ADHD, to call him that would be labeling, and possibly self-fulfilling, and something to avoid.
I am really struggling to understand the difference.
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Laura,
It hasn't been pointed out yet that the Bennets in their book explain that Christ is the perfection of all 4 temperaments, and that should be our goal - to perfect our temperament, overcome our weaknesses, be Christlike.
God gives every soul a distinct personality, and having this book and others is simply a help/tool/aid in "knowing yourself" which is a key in formation and anyone's path to holiness. It is also true that most of us have a dominant temperament, but also possess characteristics of the other temperaments as well. That isn't always the case (for example, my sister is a true choleric - 100% focused, driven,) but is usually. So...most of us have a lot of this, and a little of this and maybe a little of that. What I liked in particular about the Bennett's book is that they broke down the different temperaments, and then pointed out the weaknesses of each of the temperaments so that you can take that to your prayer life and begin to work on vices that you may instantly recognize have always plagued you, but never really knew why.
I do agree with others in that I do not point out to my children a "name" for their temperament as I believe it might be too suggestive and close to labeling as you have pointed out. But...as others suggested...it is a very helpful tool for understanding how and why my children work like they do, and it helps me keep my expectations realistic. My sanguine son would self-destruct if I tried to put him in a situation requiring quiet introspection.
This is just my take on the situation, and I don't mean to imply that you have to read this just because we all have. I just wanted you to understand that this can be a useful tool in learning to know yourself when used with the wisdom of Holy Mother Church. Now, my sanguine self wants to say that I hope I haven't offended anyone with the choleric side of me that posted this.
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Jen Mackintosh
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MaryM
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cactus mouse wrote:
However, if I read a book, and realize my child is ADHD, to call him that would be labeling, and possibly self-fulfilling, and something to avoid.
I am really struggling to understand the difference. |
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The very wise and perceptive Maryan and Suzanne (and edited to add Jennifer who posted before I posted)have answered well. What they said makes sense for how to approach this.
I like the quote right from the Bennett book that I think addresses this:
"So our temperament neither defines our personality completely nor locks us into one pattern of reactions. But it does tell us how we (or others) will naturally tend to react, and it makes certain behaviors, responses, virtues, and vices easier or more difficult for us."
"In short, the four temperaments provide us with a key to unlocking the mystery of our own selves and of our loved ones, and can give us a way to improve all our relationships by identifying those natural tendencies that can either benefit us or trip us up."
SusanJ wrote:
| I have a theory that homeschooling mothers, especially those that blog are overwhelmingly melancholic Any thoughts? |
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The discussion of temperament related to blogging really caught my attention. I have had a blog post in my head for months now on my "blog-ancholic" temperament (has not been posted - see below for details  ). I do feel that my melancholic tendencies manifest themselves in my blogging, big time. But I came to very different conclusion on the melancholic and blogging. For me being melancholic is what inhibits me from blogging easily and why I struggle with it. I post very infrequently and am usually uneasy about it when I do. Here are the melancholic characteristics that I find most come into play for me when I try to blog.
-overly cautious, slow and sometimes indecisive : I write and re-write, I have trouble actually hitting the publish button (and then immediately go back and edit and second-guess what I've written)
-perfectionism : if a post can't be perfect and exceptional, I have trouble getting past it. I struggle with being casual and relaxed about it. I note all the reasons why it's not going to be perfect, or I don't have enough time and can't just throw something out there. Not being able to be perfect has a paralyzing effect on me and I just don't get it done. They say for many, perfectionism and procrastination go hand in hand - yeah that's me . (See indecisive above )
-doesn't prioritize well : have too many ideas for posts I want to do at one time that nothing ever actually gets written/finished
-tends to discouragement and self-pity - interior self-talk: "I don't have anything worthwhile to share." "No one is reading this anyway." "I'm not clever and articulate like the other blogging moms."
Melancholics have a tendency toward introspection but for me that has never been about writing. Mine is all in my head and I have a hard time articulating it in writing. I don't think being introspective manifests iself in all as having a desire to write/journal. Plus as an introvert/introspective person there is no way that I am going to share the inner me with the world through a blog. Okay in my case only a couple people... but seriously to me my inner self is pretty private. For that reason I think many melancholics would actually not be able to blog (private blogging might be different.)
I can't remember where I read it because I'm not finding it in the Bennett book, but I read something about melacholics and confession. We have a very strong desire for the sacrament and are introspective of our faults and sins, but have a terrible time with the actual sacrament and being able to share openly our sins in the confessional. To put that inner part of me out there in any sort of public (or non-interior way) is very difficult.
So why do I even attempt to do it??? Good questions - probably the artistic creative side of the melancholic comes out as does my desire to organize my plans and ideas.
And Suzanne and Maryan, you guys just whip out these great responses easily - keeping it short and simple yet profound - how long does that take you? It took me a couple hours to write this response. See what I'm talking about????
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Mary M. in Denver
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stefoodie
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MaryM wrote:
Here are the melancholic characteristics that I find most come into play for me when I try to blog.
-overly cautious, slow and sometimes indecisive : I write and re-write, I have trouble actually hitting the publish button (and then immediately go back and edit and second-guess what I've written)
-perfectionism : if a post can't be perfect and exceptional, I have trouble getting past it. I struggle with being casual and relaxed about it. I note all the reasons why it's not going to be perfect, or I don't have enough time and can't just throw something out there. Not being able to be perfect has a paralyzing effect on me and I just don't get it done. They say for many, perfectionism and procrastination go hand in hand - yeah that's me . (See indecisive above )
-doesn't prioritize well : have too many ideas for posts I want to do at one time that nothing ever actually gets written/finished
-tends to discouragement and self-pity - interior self-talk: "I don't have anything worthwhile to share." "No one is reading this anyway." "I'm not clever and articulate like the other blogging moms."
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No more time to read/write a lot, but I can clearly see my melancholic side in all of that.... I have 58 drafts and all of them are not published precisely because of those reasons.
And then most of the time, my sanguine side just takes over and I want to share anything and everything anyway, since it's *my* blog and I can do what I want with it :D -- perhaps my published posts show my sanguine/choleric side, and my drafts show my melancholic side :D.
Very interesting discussion, everyone, and one I have to leave now or we'll never make it to the airport in time. Looking forward to reading more when I get back -- particularly more discussion on Mary's points, etc.
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stef
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Maryan
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Jennifer and Mary -- great quotes!! They give a much thorough perspective!
And... Mary I'm chuckling.
This sanguine is prolific at blogging, it's all light and fun... and filled with typos - not from ignorance, but laziness. I couldn't be bothered to proofread. I've usually moved onto something else. (If I notice it right away after posting, I will fix it though.)
However, no one is going to "bookmark" my many posts for future reference. Most of my choleric and melancholic friends (MaryM included) have the posts that I go back to when I'm studying a certain subject and need references!!
And as you can tell I'm really revealing my weaknesses... if given time (the boys are having a great time outside) I will "chatter" away way too much.... and avoid work. I'd better get back to laundry... but this has been fun! I've been stuck inside with illnesses and haven't "talked" to adults in a while. Laura, your questions have helped me be inspired to motivate my kids and work on our virtue... at a time when I have so much cabin fever and just am frustrated!
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Maryan
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insegnante
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Well, this almost 90% melancholic, slightly phlegmatic person doesn't blog. I have had blogs in the past, but just like on message boards, I tend to write long boring things that don't inspire responses I'm not often comfortable really "putting myself out there" on the Internet with my thoughts about deep, important topics, because I don't see myself being able to say much of value in an organized manner without spending ages and ages editing. I usually feel like I need to know the person I am addressing to express myself confidently and effectively. I'm much more likely to read those sorts of "deep thoughts" blogs than photos-of-our-day blogs. I'm not a very visual/aesthetically-particular person, so I don't think I would have one of those photo-heavy blogs for any reason except to try to fit in, and then I'd expect that not to work anyway . Except, I don't do much that would contribute to an interesting photo blog. I don't even like "light reading" or "romantic comedies." I love long conversations about "deep" things but for some reason that doesn't translate into me blogging about what is wrong with the world and what would help and that sort of thing like the bloggers I read do.
It's very clear that I'm mostly like a melancholic but I don't understand the idea of melancholics being organized and tidy because they are melancholic. Wow, not me at all.
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Theresa
mommy to three boys, 3/02, 8/04, and 9/10, and a girl, 8/08
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Temperaments???????
