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Rebecca
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I live in the northernmost part of Ohio though I have traveled quite a bit in the south as we have relatives who live there. What I have found jives somewhat with what Barbara mentioned, that politeness has little to do with the location in which one lives in the country but rather tends to be less prevalent in urban areas due to the lack of father figures, increase in economic and spiritual poverty and the decline of family values. I live in a somewhat urban area myself and have notices that politeness seems to have more to do with having a family (mother and father) who are involved in a child's life and who are good examples than the area of the country in which one lives.
So much of what is being said in this thread sounds so silly to me. For example, are southern girls really "prettier"? Are southern children really "more respectful"? Does a "northern upbringing" really have anything to do with why a person dresses poorly? I have seen my fair share of southern women and men who could benefit from a makeover just as much as we northerners could.
Is there really "greater respect for the dignity of the person" in the south? Haven't men been tied to the backs of trucks and dragged to death in the south because they were the wrong color? Was it not half a decade ago in the 1960s when lynching was still common in the south? To claim that a certain part of the country which for many years was known for repression and fear now has "greater respect for the dignity of the person" just seems outrageous. Certainly abortion rates are higher in the north (though I believe California is in first place last I checked), due to the larger number of urban areas and their problems.
My husband and I have tried to raise our boys to be gentlemen, to hold doors for ladies, to serve themselves after their sisters, etc. The girls are being taught to speak and act like ladies. There is not much support for that where we live because we live in an urban area, not because we live in the North. Certainly there are many cities in the north where impatience and rudeness is quite common, even accepted unfortunately, but it certainly does not describe the north as a whole. For that matter, I have encountered impolite people in larger southern cities. I would not judge the entire southern portion of our country on those experiences, though.
I know that southern children are taught to use "sir" and "ma'am" more often than up north. While I like the respect that those terms give, we teach the children to say "Yes,Grandpa." or "Yes, Mrs. Johnson" rather than "yes, ma'am" or "yes, sir", not because we don't appreciate those terms but because it is what we are comfortable with. We were taught respect toward our elders, just not that terminology.
I just think we need to be careful what we say lest we sound unwelcoming, haughty or prideful. It is one thing to be proud of the town or state in which you live and to mention the things you love about it but to compare and contrast the perceived weaknesses of half of our country where many members of our forum members live does not seem either wise or charitable.
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folklaur
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Thank you, Rebecca. I was thinking this too - and I am glad you said it, cause I was kind of offended by the whole thing, but I wasn't going to say anything....(I grew up in NJ, and I was always taught to use Mr/Mrs/Miss, I was taught manners, etc.)
I raise my children that way too, and I think I am doing an okay job (we are in AZ now, so neither North nor South really - more Southwest - which is its own little world.  )
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Mary G
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Rebecca and Laura --
I sincerely apologize if you were offended by this thread -- I was taking it as a light-hearted look at cultural differences in the country. Of course there are gentlemen and ladies in the North, South, East and West -- just as their are ungentlemanly folks in the North, South, East and West. There are definite differences in my experience.
Again, so sorry y'all were offended as that was not my intention at all. And for the record, I was born and raised in California (which is a whole NOTHER story  ) went to school in the Pacific NW, lived in NoVA, worked in Hot'Lanta, lived in NC and SC and now in Colorado ... so I've seen LOTS of different folks and LOTS of differences in all those areas.
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JennGM
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Rebecca wrote:
| Is there really "greater respect for the dignity of the person" in the south? Haven't men been tied to the backs of trucks and dragged to death in the south because they were the wrong color? Was it not half a decade ago in the 1960s when lynching was still common in the south? To claim that a certain part of the country which for many years was known for repression and fear now has "greater respect for the dignity of the person" just seems outrageous. Certainly abortion rates are higher in the north (though I believe California is in first place last I checked), due to the larger number of urban areas and their problems. |
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WHOA!! Hold on there!!! I think my words are being misconstrued. I'm definitely offended that you would lump all the Southerners as guilty of lynching (which is also not in our generations). Where we live does not make us guilty of all crimes. Are all Germans condemned because of Nazism? If I were to find most abortionists were from the North, am I going to make a blanket statement condemning all? We're talking about family culture from a geographic area. It's a simple question, but it's not so easy to make simple statements.
And secondly, I used a specific example -- I'm talking to the cashier or customer service about my day, listening to his/her problem -- recognizing the person, not just the job. That's what I meant. Is it across the board? No, because there have been atrocities because of skin color. Is racism isolated only in the South? No, but I won't go there.
I agree things are changing because of urban, and I could easily agree that there are some things that are found both in North and South. People are just stating their own experiences in how they were raised. And you can see that it varies by location and salaries and probably cultural heritage, too.
Perhaps this thread just shows that there isn't much difference. If someone is saying that one is better than another, that's in their own preference of how they were brought up. It's not necessary to defend Northerners against Southerners...that's not what Nissa was asking in her original question. We're not trying to start Civil War II here, nor are we trying to reopen old wounds.
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Rebecca
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Jenn, I was not quoting you. I was quoting Crunchy Mom who said "I think that there is a greater respect in the South for the dignity of the person..." I was actually saying the same thing that you are above. Certainly we CANNOT lump an entire section of the country together and say that they have "greater respect for the dignity of the person" than other areas of the country. I used the lynching argument not to condemn any one person but to point out that it is ridiculous to assert than ANY area of the country (the north included) has a superior record for human dignity. There is good and bad in all areas of our country and to assert that the South is somehow superior in its dignity towards the human race (as was mentioned earlier in this thread, not by you) is ridiculous. It would be equally ridiculous if I claimed the same about the North.
I do think it is easy to say that we northerners should not defend ourselves against the things being said here but if this thread mentioned that Northern girls are "prettier", that our children were "more respectful", that we dress better because we have a "proper upbringing" it would probably rub you all the wrong way as well. It is not personal until its personal, right?
Sorry if you thought I was quoting you. I had no trouble with what you wrote at all and I apologize if I was unclear in my previous post.
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Rebecca
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JennGM wrote:
| [that's not what Nissa was asking in her original question. We're not trying to start Civil War II here, nor are we trying to reopen old wounds. |
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I also wanted to mention that I think Nissa's original question is an interesting one which is why I was following the thread. To try to raise our children to be hospitable and well mannered is of interest to all of us here. I do not have a problem with the thread in general, just with some of the superior sounding claims about the southern people being friendlier, prettier, better dressed, and more respectful of the dignity of a person than other areas of the country.
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nissag
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Thanks everyone for your responses so far. You have confirmed much of my experiences in the South and of Southern-raised families I've known. I understand that exact location makes a vast difference.
Rebecca, I think that what was meant by "pretty" is that girls are more often encouraged to be coifed, made-up, manicured, and dressed in very feminine attire. I think the term is used much like "sweet" and "cute". It refers to a specifically southern notion of how a young lady should look. IYKWIM.
Now... I wonder if someone could help clarify what is expected when a girl is told to "be sweet". What does that entail more specifically. Sounds like a ridiculously obvious point, but for my own research, it would help to define that further.
Sally, that Junior League Cookbook sounds AMAZING! I'd love to see one like that. I was, once upon a time, an event planner. So that appeals enormously to me.
I am also a graduate of the Protocol School of Washington with a certification in etiquette and international protocol. I remember distinctly one of my classmates expressing shock at the fact that we don't have cotillion classes here in the northeast.
I have also lamented the fact that there is no interest in matching brother-sister outfits, little smocked dresses and Eton suits here in MA.
I think that much of that mannerly behaviour has been part of my life for a long time. I was born in Virginia, and spent the first few years of my life there and in North Carolina. The influence, was more - at that time - upon my mother who raised me to call adults by Mr/Mrs until asked to call them by their Christian names, which was then preceeded by Mr./Miss. That has held in how I have raised my kids. We also require "Ma'am" and "Sir".
I think overall, if I'm hearing you all correctly, that etiquette still reigns in good everyday behaviour. That includes grooming and dress. Hospitality also seems to be more important, and traditional gender roles are still stressed.
Is that right?
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Elizabeth
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nissag wrote:
I have also lamented the fact that there is no interest in matching brother-sister outfits, little smocked dresses and Eton suits here in MA.
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Ahhh...matching brother sister outfits! In my southern university, I belonged to a sorority and my "big sister" was a proper Southern lady from whom I learned a great deal about looking the part of a "proper Southern lady." She always dressed perfectly, even to go to the library to study all night. With her well-fitting jeans and sorority sweatshirt, Lisa looked picture perfect in a Peter Pan collar and pearls.She never had a bad hair day--and I lived with her so I would have witnessed it if she did. When Karoline was born, she sent her a tiny little pearl bracelet. The kids opened it without me and brought it up to show me. I knew upon sight who'd sent it.
After a very successful career as an engineer, Lisa found her true calling and launched a business dedicated to matching bother-sister outfits, little smocked dresses and Eton suits. Nissa, may I please have the honor of introducing you to The Best Dressed Child ?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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OOOOO Elizabeth, I love that site! And NCAA-wear (particularly SEC schools) are de rigeur during the Fall (cheerleader outfits for the girls and football "uniforms" for the boys)....
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Elizabeth
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Mary G wrote:
| And NCAA-wear (particularly SEC schools) are de rigeur during the Fall (cheerleader outfits for the girls and football "uniforms" for the boys).... |
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I've got a personal preference for ACC schools, Mary . And Lisa's got so many darling smocked Easter dresses and little Eton suits...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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nissag
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Are you serious? That's your friend Lisa? I have been to that site before. Didn't I buy William some saddle shoes there once? Hmmm. Yes, ma'am, I did! I bought those adorable beige and white saddle oxfords for him when he was three.
I love those shoes.
Blessings,
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folklaur
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I get a catalog every Christmas that has the sweetest brother-sister outfits. I love them, they are pretty pricey though. I can't remember the name (enchanted something? fairytale something? argh. I just googled and couldn't find it...)
I love matching outfits.
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Mary G
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I've got a personal preference for ACC schools, Mary |
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Sorry Elizabeth ... my dear 18yos firmly believes that the only football played and worth watching is the SEC! He MIGHT "give" you the ACC, but that's about as far afield as he'll go -- as proven during the BCS this year! 
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nissag
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I get the Wooden Soldier catalog which is full of the sweetest outfits. I sit and moon over the photographs. The year I did a great big wedding for a MS exec, the kids got outfits from there. ;-)
It's funny... They're actually out of New Hampshire.
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folklaur
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Oh, Nissa, that was the one I was thinking of!
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nissag
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Can anyone tell me about how children address their parents throughout their lives. It has been m (very limited) experience that a father is "Daddy" forever, and that a mother evolves from Mama/Momma to Mother when the child reaches adulthood.
Don't faint, but here in the northeast, there are some who call their parents by their first names. And their aunts and uncles.
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Martha
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Quote:
| Now... I wonder if someone could help clarify what is expected when a girl is told to "be sweet". What does that entail more specifically. Sounds like a ridiculously obvious point, but for my own research, it would help to define that further. |
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Honestly? I would say it's old-world southern style version of what we refer to as being a submissive wife. My mother was a VERY proper southern woman and I was quite the disappointment to her. Be sweet... act the young lady... ect.. was her way of saying:
don't yell
don't run
don't argue
don't frown
don't complain
don't back talk
don't talk too much
don't interupt
don't get dirty
don't bother the men-folk
be a proper hostess (esp for men and elderly)
fix my hair and put on proper make-up
Completely serious here folks, to the day my mother died I had/have never seen her without her nails perfectly polished and mascara on - no amount of chemo could get her to "let herself go like that in public" and "public" equaled all the time because you just never know when you might have to deal with someone and wouldn't ever want to be caught off guard.
The purpose of such constant admonishments were to create a submissive young lady, as true lady was always quiet, graceful, and deliberate in all her manners and speech. Like I said, I was a bitter disappointment to her. 
As for this whole north vs south issue.
simple truth is that while both sides may think such things are important and are working on teaching it - there's an attitude about the proper way in which to do so and the strength of force to do so that is not present in the north in my experience. In other words, in the north it would be acceptable and common for a mother to gently say, "Tim, you shouldn't call him John. You should say, Mr. -- or Yes, sir."
In much of the south, a child not saying "Mr." or "Sir" would be dealt with swiftly and strongly. The mother would instantly and shockingly say, "EXcuse me?! What did you say young man?" and probalby 90% of the time, the kid does know where he went wrong in his speech and quickly correctly rephrases himself. The mother would be horrified at her child's public lapse in manners and offer an apology to the person referenced.
Now obviously there are exceptions to this on both sides.
I don't think anyone was being superior.
Simple truth is there are big differences in mannerisms and expectations at times. So what? It's not an insult. It's just different. Really, I don't think anyone was thinking that northerners are uncouth or anything. It's a difference of perception. To many of my southern relatives, "yankees" are a bit cold, always in a hurry (which in and of itself is perceived as rudeness), and tender-skinned. To my yankee relatives, southerners are always hot-tempered, inconsiderate of other's time and lazy (because they are never in a hurry) and thick-headed.
The reality is they probably agree more than they disagree about most things.
It's HOW to go about doing those things that is different.
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nutmeg
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nissag wrote:
Can anyone tell me about how children address their parents throughout their lives. It has been m (very limited) experience that a father is "Daddy" forever, and that a mother evolves from Mama/Momma to Mother when the child reaches adulthood.
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My kids have called my husband and I "Mama" and "Papa", until recently when we visited their cousins in Canada. Now the boys call us "Mom" and "Dad". It's always been "Grandma" and "Grandpa" though... no "Me maw" or "Poppy" for us!
Of course, no calling any adults by their first name!
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Barbara C.
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I've seen a variety of ways to address relatives. My dad was "Daddy" but now he is "Dad". Mom made the progression. My husband still calls his mother "Mama". My mother's parents were called "Grandma and Grandpa Reasor"; apparently my dad's mom wanted to be addressed only by her nickname 'Til (short for Matilda) but she ended up as Grandma Til. My nephew christened my parents Memaw and Papaw (we have no idea why). His biological paternal grandfather is "Grandfather"; his grandfather's parents (who only spoke German) were "Omaw and Opaw". His step (now adoptive) grandparents are Grandpa Joe and Grandma Crystal. My MIL asked to be referred to as Granny, but she really wouldn't have cared what the kids called her. My godmother trained all of her grandchildren to call her "Grandmother". My husband's cousin always called his parents by their first name; he's a Kentucky country boy with several acres of farm. My husband's grandfather is "Grandpa", and his grandmother was known as "Meon" because as a little boy he ran "Mama Lillian" together.
As you can tell, I've seen all kinds of ways to address parents and grandparents, and again I've not noticed anything unique between being here in Illinois and living in Kentucky.
And I agree with what someone else said about the weather affecting mannerisms. Northerners are "cold, always in a hurry, and tender-skinned"...that's because it is literally FREEZING for a good portion of the year. We are cold, in a hurry to get out of the cold (and at home where it is warm), and trying not to get frostbite or windburn.
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SallyT
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Martha said what I was going to say about "be sweet." Generally it does mean, "Be cute, be cheerful, be decorative." Around a lot of Southern women I know, I feel about twenty times more sarcastic than I actually am (which is, um, kind of sarcastic), just because they're so NOT sarcastic. And I'm a Southern girl, too; just happened to fail the "Southern Belle" portion of my upbringing.
And my kids aren't very stereotypically Southern, except that they're polite (I hope!). And my mother has always made the girls, as long as they're little, smocked dresses for Christmas and Easter. But I had my first babies in Utah, in the winter, and the whole smocked "day-gown" thing just was NOT going to work so much, with several feet of snow on the ground, so I'm afraid I disappointed at least one doting grandmother by not dressing them like little smocked angels. (still have those day gowns for MY grandchildren, though!).
Nissa, I'll pull down the Junior League cookbook and post some things out of it. It's very entertaining.
Sally
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Q: Raising children southern style
