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nissag
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I'm doing some research and wondered if some of you here would be willing to help me out.
Having lived in both northern and southern areas, I noticed an enormous difference in child-rearing. I would like to understand better the cultural differences involved as well as methods employed in raising girls and boys, respectively. Put another way: how do you raise a southern lady or gentleman?
I may ask some more focused questions depending upon responses. For now, I'd like to leave the question as broad as possible. I realise that the responses will differ somewhat depending upon where in the south you are, and that makes it all the more interesting.
I'm looking forward to what you have to say.
Blessings,
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SusanMc
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Well, having been raised in the south and gone to college in the north I will tell you the most dramatic difference is formality and manners.
It is "yes, ma'am, no ma'am" and "yes, sir, no, sir" to a parent or adult until you are at least 18 years old. Even into adulthood, the very old are still referred to like this unless they invite you to be more informal.
Adults are never referred to by their first names. Instead they are "Miss Pat" or "Mr Larry" if they are friendly with the family (or even Aunt Pat or Uncle Larry if VERY familiar) or Mrs. Smith and Mr. Dunn if they are acquaintances.
There are other examples of manners (table manners, social dances, etc.) but they all seem to be variations on a theme: do not assume informality. I think a young lady or young gentleman is taught to recognize and respect differences in rank due to age or status and differences in formality due to familiarity. The idea is that we don't have our "formal" manners on all the time, but we have them to use when necessary and we default to those manners when in doubt.
I think these unspoken habits go a long way to helping one enter the workplace and have a less rushed approach to dating intimacy as well.
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Barbara C.
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I am originally from Louisville, Kentucky. When people hear Kentucky (and my accent), they automatically think "the South". I once heard Louisville more accurately described as "the Southernmost Northern city and the Northernmost Southern city." We have high-tech rednecks and Cincinnati-style chili.
I went to college 90 miles south of Louisville and about 60 miles north of Nashville, TN at Western Kentucky University. It was a total culture shock. A large portion of the people I met were from small towns around the state, and most of them were Protestants who had known very few Catholics and had very skewed ideas about Catholicism. And whether they came from the small towns or the second and third largest cities in Kentucky they were united in their love of University Kentucky and their fear and distrust of anything to do with Louisville (especially the University of Louisville).
I was raised in Louisville. I helped raise my nephew until he was five. I babysat for about five or six different families as a teenager. In college, I babysat the daughter of one of my professors. After college I lived and worked in my college town for a few years with people who had children. My first daughter was born in Louisville, but we moved to the Chicago suburbs when she was nine-months old. Most of our contact with other families is either through our homeschooling group or oldest dd's activity classes (gymnastics, dance, etc.).
To be honest I haven't really noticed any differences between child-rearing between the North and the South. The differences I have noticed more vary between homeschooling or not and between economic classes. For instance, of the children I babysat in high school and college in the South, the ones from poorer families had parents who had a more parent-oriented childcare practices. The kids were often just treated like annoying burdens who kept their parents from having their good time out on the town after a long day of work. Many of the kids had their physical needs met but were emotionally neglected. Discipline was only handed out when the kids did something annoying, not necessarily wrong. In the slightly more well-off homes, there was more concern about the child's happiness and discipline for character-formation. There were also more likely to be rules about television amount and content and an emphasis on education.
Up here, most of the people I am in contact with are slightly wealthier than we are. Again there is a lot of concern about the child's happiness. There is a big effort to allow kids to try different activities so that they can figure out what really inspires them. I think this is partly because of the availability of activities and having the disposable income to pay for them.
And like I said, the only other differences I have noticed are between those who homeschool and those who don't. I must admit that I only met one kid who was homeschooled in Kentucky, but I didn't know him very well and never saw him with his parents. However, from looking around on-line there is a growing number of homeschoolers in Kentucky, just as in the rest of the country. The only difference I can tell is that there seem to be fewer secular homeschooling groups in the South.
The only two things that I remember in Southern parenting that I haven't encountered up here was the occasional blatant favortism for one child over another (especially by a grandparent) and a restriction of one family who wouldn't allow their son to have a doll. These are things, though, that these are strictly Southern issues.
My mother-in-law was born in a tiny town in Kentucky and has the thickest Southern country bumpkin accent you have ever heard. She moved up here a year after we did. A lot of her friends from rural Kentucky used to pepper us with questions about people being meaner in the North. You see, at my mother-in-law's job in small town Kentucky she was expected to come in an unlock the pharmacy during her off-time if a customer didn't make it there during business hours; the customer would call her at home. If her pharmacy didn't have what a customer wanted, they would call the other two in town to see if they did. Since she moved up here, this is not expected. People in the south would define this as an example of Northern people not being as nice; however, this would never be expected in Louisville, either.
IMO, I think a lot of the North/South differences really are a difference between rural and urban. I wouldn't be surprised if the small towns in rural Illinois (which is the majority of the state outside of Chicago) are very similar to small towns in Kentucky or Tennessee. And I also wouldn't be surprised if there is a bigger cultural difference between East and West than North and South.
As for raising a Southern lady or gentleman... My cousin was involved in a group twenty years ago that was supposed to be sorta be making Southern debutantes. From what I could tell, though, it was really like a dress-up club for teenage girls rather than any emphasis on education or social refining and manners. Women, even guests for ceremonies, were not allowed to wear pants, and a member of the Mason's had to be present for all meetings. Considering that my cousin has posted a picture of herself lying on her bed in a negligee on her MySpace page, I am not sure I would consider her a Southern belle or a debutante.
I don't really know what the qualities of a Southern gentleman are supposed to be. Just like I don't really understand the newly-touted "Southern Heritage" that is represented by the Confederate flag. Maybe I am just too much of a Yankee. 
I will be interested to read other people's responses to your questions, Nissa. And I hope that I have not offended anyone with my opinions. This whole North/South thing has constantly come up since we moved up here four years ago, and it kind of annoys me at times. Plus, this pregnancy has made me really crotchety lately. 
Edit: What Susan mentioned about manners, again I have noticed it more in rural areas than urban. Neither I nor my other "big-city" peers were taught to refer to adults as ma'am or sir. (In fact, kids that did that kind of came off like Eddie Haskel.) Either we were specifically taught how to refer to an adult as we were introduced to them (could be Mrs. Smith, Miss Gloria, or just Gloria), or we just avoided calling them anything because we didn't know what to call them. Even the people I knew from the other larger cities in Kentucky didn't practice those types of manners.
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Martha
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Susan hit it on the nail for me.
It is so ingrained that I even call my dh "sir" rather frequently. It's a sign of respect and even affection for those we are comfortable with.
My mother was very into the southern girly girl routine.
There is a much bigger line between the sexes, imho.
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juststartn
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I'm with Susan. I grew up just outside of Atlanta (and I'm only 33, so I am not *that* old....lol)...
The whole name thing, yes sir, yes ma'am...right with you on that one. Children don't say "yeah" (or didn't) to an adult. Maybe another child, but never an adult (man, the way that the fur would fly if one of us dc had said something like yeah, or nope to my parents  )...
I am a little bit more lax with my dc. However, please, thank you, yes sir/ma'am, etc is a BIG thing for us. I think it is a matter of respect for elders/the feelings of others. As far as what we let the children call other adults...well, it's pretty much what Susan said. GOOD family friends are Aunt and Uncle, even if there is no sort of blood relation. Mr/Miss First Name if we know them well "enough" (and that is a nebulous standard, I know)...and Mr and Mrs. otherwise. I don't permit them to call adults by their first names. Period. (Their babysitter is "Miss Patricia", never just "Patricia", for instance). It denotes a "seperation" between the children and those in authority over them/older than them.
Rachel
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juststartn
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oh--and we didn't "do" the whole debutante thing. Personally, I thought it was a load of...well, bovine excrement? Anyway, I suppose it (being a Southern lady/gentleman) has more to do with being feminine or masculine. None of that whole "androgynous" uni$ex nonsense, iykwim. Steel Magnolias is a pretty good "explanation"...the whole pretty on the outside, CAPABLE, intelligent woman, who simply does what must be done with grace, integrity, etc. That is what *I* have always considered to be ladylike, regardless of where one is born/raised.
As far as gentlemanly behavior...hm. Well, not having any brothers, and being married to a Kansan (therefore, non-Southern) DH, makes "decoding" that a little bit different. I am trying to think of a good way to quantify it...Mix the smell of cinnamon oatmeal cookies with clean from the line laundry warmed by the sun...throw the aroma of fresh cut grass...a weee pinch of dirt (that lovely smell when the ground is freshly plowed, just after a rain)...and there you have it. I expect that I will raise my sons (who are only a wee over 9mos, so can't really say how this will all work) to be God-fearing, gentle men, not afraid of hardwork...but who know how to cuddle a wee one on their lap, show them how to hunt, fish, and otherwise, teach them about God's creation...
There you go. Now, wasn't *THAT* an explanation? Okay, I know it wasn't. LOL Sorry. Best I could do for you...short notice and all that, lol.
Rachel
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JennGM
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Nissa, I've been turning this question around in my head for a while. My input comes from my narrow experience. My mother and her family was from New Orleans, then moved to Houston when she was young. I was raised in Houston and Shreveport, LA.
From my small POV, I see a division of chores with traditional gender lines -- boys do the garbage, outside work, girls do the homemaking chores.
Boys are to be gentlemen, opening doors, not yelling, hitting or physical to girls (ladies). Girls are taught to be ladies. That definition in my own experience was to wait on the men. The girls were queen in their home, serving the men, especially with the food. Like in Italian households, serving food and drink and being the hostess was the way to show love. And the girls learned to raise children.
I married a Yankee, and we both agree there are some flaws to at least my family's traditions. The boys do need to learn to cook and clean and serve others, not to *expect* a woman to do it for them. So I do think there needs to be a balance...but that's just my two cents.
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hylabrook1
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A friend from Mississippi always tells her little girls, "Be sweet." To me, those 2 words say a lot. I might remind my daughters to be polite or to listen to the mother of the children they are visiting, but to say, "Be sweet" would never cross my mind.
I was raised in Baltimore, and that is far enough South that the "sir" and "ma'am" idea was big. In fact, if I don't hear what someone has said, instead of saying, "Excuse me?" I'm more likely to say, "Sir?" or "Ma'am?".
Peace,
Nancy
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JennGM
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Oh, I forgot about that respecting the elders. I didn't have sir and ma'am ingrained, but that was stressed. But good manners were highly stressed. No adults are addressed by the first name, but like said above, Miss or Mr. first name if closer friendship with the family, and Aunt or Uncle if very close.
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Cay Gibson
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hylabrook1 wrote:
A friend from Mississippi always tells her little girls, "Be sweet."
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We are raised on these two words down here and I say them to my girls at least twice a day. 
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
| No adults are addressed by the first name, but like said above, Miss or Mr. first name if closer friendship with the family, and Aunt or Uncle if very close. |
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Right. This is something you just don't do.
And older first cousins are also called Aunt or Uncle. To this day I have to mentally look at my family tree to remember if those elders are my first cousins or my aunts/uncles. And there are lots of my parents' "friends" who are still today called Aunt/Uncle by my brother and me.
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Mary G
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Having lived in the "wild west" of San Francisco for my formative years, up in Washington state for undergrad
THEN Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina for the next 20 years (with a 2 year hiatus in Austria) I think I have an interesting perspective on all this Southern vs others stuff....
South -- ALWAYS "ma'am" or "sir" and "mr." or "mrs." never name alone or "yeah". "Hey" is a form of endearment and familiarity with loved ones. Southern Belles get it done in a "be sweet" way which masks the underlying determination. A great sense of history, family is born and bred into all ... and if you're a newcomer you better adjust to all the names for different levels of grandparents, etc (g'maw, memaw, mawmaw or all different people). The SEC are the only ones who know how to play football (at least according to my LSU boy). Family is VERY important.
Elsewhere -- independence is encouraged. Family is losing it's importance while friends, peers, co-workers are key. Everyone is equal and has "rights" -- whether it's a 5 yo in a classroom or a corp exec all can voice their views.
I love the South because it really does still incorporate much of the "old world" mores and customs of a bygone era ... but having lived in some up-and-coming cities (Atlanta, Raleigh) they are moving forward but trying hard to keep the best of the old South.
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CrunchyMom
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I agree with a lot of what Sarah and Mary G said.
I grew up in AL and moved to the northeast when I graduated from college (where I still live).
I think the gender roles is important (really, Southern girls ARE prettier, but probably because they've learned to act feminine), and I also think that people were taught respect for everyone in general. I still get shocked (after 6 years) sometimes by just how rude people are here compared to home.
In the North its seems the idea that we are all equal, therefore we all deserve to be treated badly, lol. Idk if that's exactly right, but the sense of respecting elders, those in authority, etc... also seems to filter down to showing respect for your waitress or the checker at the grocery store.
I also remember being SUPER annoyed when we went to look at cars and the salesman started calling me (and dh) by my first name right off the bat. It seems so disrespectful to me--I don't even know this man and he presumes the intimacy of calling me by my first name! So, while as a Southerner there is the expectation to always be polite to someone serving you, I think there is also the expectation that they treat you with some decorum, yk?
Dh is from the midwest and has lived in the NE for 11 years, and when we visit AL, he notices a lot I miss. For instance, he went to the gas station, went in to pay, and a man there was telling the story about how earlier in the week, the credit machine was down, there was a long line, and the girl working was in tears, and everyone there was comforting her and telling her they understood and not to be upset. Boy, here, if that happened people would be SO rude, taking their frustration out on her, vowing never to come back, demanding free gas, or other absurd behavior.
Okay, so, I'm outlining the differences between the N and S versus how people raise their kids, but really, I think it is mainly that children mimick their parents. If we regularly show compassion and respect and model that behavior, our children imitate it. I think that there is a greater respect in the South for the dignity of the person, but I'm not sure its taught in any particular way other than that its modeled by parents and others in authority.
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Mary G
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Oh, another big difference ... Southerners do things more slowly and deliberately: speech, walking; it just seems that they take more time to enjoy and relax and share.
I remember when I was in grad school at William and Mary -- there were a handful of kids from the NE (Boston, Providence, Newark) and a handful of kids from the DEEP SOUTH (Virignia is sorta in the middle, if ykwim) and boy those two groups really had a tough time communicating cuz the ones from the North were fast-talking (and adding "r" in odd places ) while the Southerners were slower in speech and getting projects done, etc.
Boy, I think I'm talking myself into moving back South! !
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JennGM
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I'm back again. I read this thread while nodding my head in agreement. We're always bemoaning the fact that Northern Virginia isn't really Southern.
I second the family is emphasized. While slavery is so many times given precedence on the reason for the secession, that wasn't the only one. The South has traditionally been made of family farms and plantations, and the North was more industrialized. Bills helping the South were passed over and the North was getting richer and getting more federal help to keep the industrialization. There's a famous manifesto I'll Take My Stand by Twelve Southerners that echo this family culture.
And I agree about the slowness. Time moves slower, probably because it's hotter. But recognizing others as persons, not just employees or workers is important. And that does mean listening to stories and understanding why customer service isn't "right on time" because of the person.
And yes, generally Southern girls are more feminine and "girly". Sometimes too much so.
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SallyT
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I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, and although I spent 8 years in Utah and 4 in England, I've still lived most of my life in the South, as has my husband.
I think that in general the "New South" is much more homogenized, so that in cities, at least, you see more and more the same kinds of behavior that other people are describing as "Northern." Also, with television and other globalizing influences, Southern culture has become much less distinctive in my lifetime -- everyone everywhere has the same cultural references and influences (the "MacDonalds-ization syndrome, is how I think of it). Likewise, I think that child-rearing has become more universalized, with everyone referencing the same range of experts and influences as everyone else everywhere else in the country.
Both my parents' families were very "Old South," and I went to a girls' school in the days when they weren't educating girls to be "tomorrow's leaders today." In elementary school we had a headmistress who called everyone either "young lady" or "dahlin," and who once called a girl I knew into her office to ask her please to refrain from any future use of the word "belly" on school property. Ladies of my grandmothers' generation were real Victorians in spirit -- NOBODY would EVER have referred to any bodily function without extreme use of euphemism. My grandmother used to exhort us to "wash our hands" before going anywhere in the car; my great-aunt, who had married a little more up-market (Knoxville Country Club as opposed to Jackson Country Club) used to ask us if we needed to "powdah your nose, dahlin."
I really miss this, not because I'm much of a euphemism-user myself, but because it was distinctive, and also it bespoke a kind of discretion that doesn't exist any more, anywhere, it seems -- maybe kind of an extreme discretion (although as a seven-year-old, I somehow understood perfectly that my great-aunt really didn't expect me to powdah my nose), but it was charming. At school we were constantly exhorted to be not "women" but "young ladies," who did not do crass things like chew gum in public or sit with our knees crossed. To this day, I still really don't like gum, but I am sitting with my knees crossed right now . . .
One thing I do notice more in Southern child-rearing -- and maybe I notice it because we spent our older children's younger years in other places -- is 1) more of a tendency to dress children, especially girls, as if they were dolls (think matching smocked brother-sister outfits for every conceivable occasion, and you've got my cousins' kids pegged) and 2) a greater tendency to do things like children's birthday parties elaborately. When I was little, all the birthday invitations I received were handmade, with POEMS, in the form of flowers that opened up, or turkeys whose tails lifted up to reveal the rhyming invitation, etc. All children DRESSED UP, to the nines, to go to these parties, even if there were ponies involved. These days people are more likely either to hire party planners, or to hold parties at some fun location, but the notion that you HAVE to have a theme, and that kids have to look "cute" (see smocked brother-sister outfits, above), etc, seems still to hold in the South far more than in other places we've lived.
Granted, describing a certain segment of the Southern population, ie my old school classmates and my cousins! We don't live that way so much. But if you're interested, I do possess a 1971 Junior League "party-themed" cookbook which includes DETAILED DIRECTIONS for making and writing those rhymed birthday invitations and throwing those themed parties . . . if anyone wants to know what those rhymes actually say, I will be happy to share them!
Don't know if that remotely answers your question, Nissa, but those are thoughts which come to mind.
Sally
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nutmeg
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I was born and bred in NY, and have now lived in Texas for almost 12 years! I love the fact that we are raising our children here.
I agree with all that has been said regarding "ma'am and sir" and the use of "Miss Mary" and "Mr. Mike" for close family friends.... it's something we slipped into quite easily here. I always tell all of my kids (yes, even the boys... when dealing with younger children)to "be sweet"... it just seems to cover all the bases.
I love the family-friendly atmosphere down here! Although, I have to say, since we live so close to the city, there's not a lot of "slowing down" going on, esp when driving on the highways!
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CrunchyMom
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It is easy to romanticize, and the South is rather pocketed. The culture and traditions among older families with money in Mobile are going to be different from those of middle class families in New Orleans or Charleston.
And like anything, certain customs can be taken to extremes. Girls being prettier in the South: Now, I detested how prissy and yet mean some girls were--definitely vain and dare I say loose. However, *good* girls were taught to dress and carry themselves with feminine grace as well, and I honestly miss going to church and finding people in Sunday garb. People here wear gym clothes.
I think a big difference about girls being girls and "pretty" is actively being taught what is flattering for you. Really, I sometimes think people here have never been taught how to choose clothing, colors, etc... that suit them best. It seems shallow on one end (and can be in the extreme), and yet a Northern upbringing doesn't seem to train one in making these types of choices which really can make life easier. I mean, who wouldn't rather buy clothes that make them look their best over something unflattering?
With the example about parties, I never experienced that as a child. We had simple parties with cake and ice cream in my community.
Though things are changing. I lament how here when I go to a potluck its a bunch of boxes from the grocery store or restaurants, but my dad tells me that there is more and more of that in my hometown rural church, now, so certain disciplines and customs are dying, sadly.
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Mary G
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| Posted: Feb 29 2008 at 10:57am | IP Logged
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One downside to the South (other than in Southern LA ) is that you can run in to some pretty erroneous anti-Catholic feelings ... and often few parishes with older priests who are just too tired to do much .... We lived in Greenville -- just down the road from Bob Jones and most of the homeschoolers were non-Catholic; good people but a bit confused on the Catholic Church -- it was definitely a good chance to evangelize!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
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juststartn
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| Posted: Feb 29 2008 at 12:23pm | IP Logged
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I never got a party--or a party invitation!--like those. Guess we were too far down market. LOL
I think that is definitely something dependent on which "strata" of society you were/are in.
At birthdays at my house/in my circle growing up, it was ice cream, cake, depending on the time of year, maybe a slumber party, or a swimming party...
But shoot, my nephew (living in Atlanta) just had a late bday party--snorkeling. Imagine 13 8yr old boys...
Yeah. A bit much. My dc aren't even having a party this year, since we're moving right smack in the middle of their bdays (look at my sig line--we're moving the tail end of March).
And as per folks not having a clue about Catholicism...oh mercy, yes, that is so the truth. I just wish I was better at evangelization/apologetics than I am....
Rachel
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Q: Raising children southern style
