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Leonie
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Oh, Elizabeth,  - there's my hug!
It is not all your fault! Just like you were so encouraging in another thread, when Molly and her ds need to try school - so be encouraged that different strokes are for different kids.
It really is no-one's fault. Each child is different. My Thomas is different.
All we can do is try something, if it doesn't work, back off and try something else. Or try again later.
That is what I am trying with the learning to skateboard thing.
And, sometimes, doing nothing in particular, seems to work!
Leonie in Sydney
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Cay Gibson
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Elizabeth,
I know your dh is a television producer and you've used the video in your home. I was just thinking...actors and actresses don't start out as writers. They act out what is written for them. The ones who go on to write are the ones who watched the writers and the writing process and were inspired by what they said and read.
Also---here's another suggestion for the taking or leaving  ---how about tape recording a conversation with him then typing (or having him type) a playback of the conversation...only his part of the talk, of course.
Once it's written, together, go over it in the editing process.  Or gradually move into this area after some comfort-time.
Another thought would be to copy the cover of one of his favorite games and cut/paste it at the top of a piece of paper. Then he can write down what he thinks about the game, how it's played, and if he likes it. Perhaps simply making a list of things would make it less burdensome.
One thing my 7 yr old has been doing for two years is writing lists: b-day lists, shopping lists, school lists, etc. She also goes around the house writing sections out of books into a small notebook she carries with her. She started a newspaper this week. It's basically a cardstock sheet folded in half with her writing, thoughts, and drawings covering it. She makes lots of b-day cards (for her godmother this week) and get-well cards (for Oma today) throughout. She also has a small notebook she calls her "prayer journal."  She writes little prayers in it...two or three liners, but you'd swear they were Mary's Magnificant whenever she reads them aloud. 
If you look closely at my dd's list, they are all very small writings and very small projects. But they mean a lot to her and will pave the way for larger, greater writings and projects.
Your ds might just need a break for all things written. I was in the lobby of the dance studio yesterday waiting for my girls. The owner/director has lived her life on stage (and the football field). In high school she was the cheerleader, the dancer, etc. What I'd have given to have 1/4 of her energy level.
Her dd was walking around the studio showing everyone her new pet pocket chihuahua in a bag. I heard her mother sigh deeply to someone near the office and say, "No...no dancing at all this year. Yep, she's decided she wants a break, so we're not even going there."
I could hear the sadness in the mother's tone...the disbelief as well. But the dd was quite lively and proud of her new pet...and the sneakers on her feet. And, I'm thinking, while the mother was able to express herself well through dance, she probably freezes up when it comes to writing her thoughts down.
My second ds is my quiet one. He isn't strong academically. But, ages ago (when Corey first started school), I heard someone comment that children must excel at something in life. Either (1) academics (2) athletics (3) social skills. I believe the person absent-mindedly left out (4) musical skills. I committed myself to each of my children being good at something...no matter how small it seemed. It had to be something that gave them self-confidence and a future goal. My oldest is extremely good with his hands and his overall work ethic. Before that, he did very well in team sports and was always a team players. Kayleigh excels in academics and dance. I think Garrett felt unable to compete with the two of them.
Then he went golfing with a friend. My ds reigns supreme on the golf course and bowling alley. He loves video games too. Adores them.  But, when it comes to golf and bowling, he has something to brag about. And I let him brag...  You'll notice that these two sports are very individual sports. Garrett has only himself to compete with. No one else.
I think I've tumbled off the cart somewhere in this post. I meant to just jot down a few ideas and lapsed into personal experiences. So, instead of rambling more and making it longer, I'll end here.
We have to get to the soccer field anyway.
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Cay Gibson
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LLMom
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Hi Elizabeth. My 12 year old is very similar. I just posted a similar message under special needs. Sorry I am no help. We need help here too. Prayers
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Natalia
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Dear Elizabeth,
I don't have anything to add. You were so encouraging to me on the lack of joy thread that I wanted to send a big hug your way. I know how emotionally taxing our worries for our children can be.
Natalia
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Molly Smith
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Elizabeth wrote:
| My sense is that this isn't about not wanting to write as much as it's about insecurity and a perceived sense of not being good enough to write.He won't attempt anything he's not sure he's good at. At first galnce, it looks like laziness: he wont' try to do anything. But then, you can see that it's really feel of failure, or even mediocrity. |
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This is the reason I'm following this thread!! This describes my 7yo to a tee! He'll go in his room and practice something for hours and hours (like snapping his fingers) before he'll let someone see him. He would go out in the side yard in the wee hours to practice riding his bike with no one looking and wouldn't show us until he'd mastered it. Same with his copywork--he doesn't want anyone to be near him, but he is very proud to show off his great work and makes me pick out which letter or word I think is best. He brought me an entire page of lowercase "a"s a few days ago to ask which one was best--then he cut it out and had tried to make every lowercase "a" since be exactly like it. If he doesn't think he can do it, he won't even try. So, don't mind me, I'm just listening in to glean for the future  .
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Molly Smith in VA
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Bridget
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I'm with Molly, it is so helpful to read about everyone's ideas. I appreciate that things like this can get discussed here and by so many different perspectives. Most of the time a problem someone is having is one that others are having or might have in the future.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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cathhomeschool
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Leonie wrote:
Oh, Elizabeth, - there's my hug!
It is not all your fault! |
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Yikes! I agree wholeheartedly that it certainly isn't Elizabeth's fault! He's seen you edit your own work and that of others. He's seen you write and re-write. Certainly, that demonstrates that writing is anything but effortless. But if he's a perfectionist and writing well is important to him, then it doesn't matter that it isn't effortless. He doesn't want anyone to see anything but the perfect final product, which of course is impossible to attain at his stage without guidance. It's a Catch-22.
I really hope that my post didn't come across as fingerpointing, yet as I reread it I can see that it could have sounded that way.  *sigh* I really don't think that it's your fault! Each child is just built differently, and maybe Christian is just more complicated than the rest. Gotta think outside the box with him...
Maybe you could keep your eyes peeled for a national or regional writing contest in which the grand prize is video game related. Maybe you could tape record his enthusiastic conversations and have an oral journal going for him. Sorry if I'm not being at all helpful -- just ignore me! 
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Cindy
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cathhomeschool wrote:
| Sorry if I'm not being at all helpful -- just ignore me! |
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Janette-
I'm not Elizabeth, but I wanted to let you know I always enjoy your posts. You come across the screen as very caring and concerned and never in a negative sense!
And all--
I am glad, too, that this can be discussed online. Thank God the Internet opens up our world enough to find kindred spirits or people going through similar trials. I have found no one IRL that is going through this. I'm sure there are some in the secular p/s world, but not anyone with my perspecitve on parenting.
There are close friends I can share with, but none that have this situation, at least IRL.
It is hard in some ways because we want the very best for our kids- find resources and support, but want to maintain their privacy.. esp when the issue *is* their need for privacy... argh. what's a mom to do?
But there are ways around it and to get support.
When I was at my limit in feeling fear and not knowing which way to go when other people seemed to have it easy or it seemed easy with my other child.. I got some good advice:
Perhaps I was having such a difficult time b/c I could not get my head around WHO this child was. If they would really be *OK* How I was to help them. When that is the case, standard help and advice don't work b/c the child is not standard. All the talk about TRUST goes out the window b/c you think, Yes, I can trust one child to learn and find his way, but can I trust this other one?
And there seems to be lots of support for ADD, LD, etc, but I have found little in this area. Have others?
At least that was my experience....fwiw!
Another major thing that helps is when our children begin to grow and things DO work out. I feel like it is a hug from God.
We had a major moment yesterday. Manifestation that our child had grown, emerged and was overcoming worries we had and have worked on for years. I told my dh, we must reconginze these and rejoice.. as much or more as we lament the difficulties. Yesterday was an .. Oh happy day! Now if I had just known even this event would happen, it would have relieved a lot of worrying I had done all these years!
But, we still have more to concern about, to work with, to continue on the journey. This is one reason I love unschooling b/c we can focus on what works for the child. As years go on, I am able to trust more. And let dc grow into who they are.. and not who I think they should be. That was a biggie. Maybe this is how God is teaching me?
Ok... enough rambling!
Maybe this would be good to take to the special needs board? Sounds like there are others who have faced a sensitive child issue? Or a new topic in the unschooling board..? Don't want to leave out non-unschoolers who might be interested.
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Cindy in Texas
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Cay Gibson
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Elizabeth,
Do you have Margot Davidson's new Lingua Mater from CHC? I wouldn't promote more curriculum but I know you were looking at CHC anyway.
I'm using it with my 12 yr old. We're doing it completely oral (for now). We're also using her Stories with a View (also from CHC) and I'm having him write out these assignments. My 7 yr old uses it too. My opinion is that these two grammar/writing tools have no age-segregation. I'm even enjoying them. 
Back to Lingua Mater...
We did Wk I directly after Hurricane Katrina hit.
How fitting! The readings were "The Guest" and Matthew 25:34-40. It was all about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, welcoming the strangers. We not only read about it. We lived it!
We did Wk II this week.
Today I realized how well the character anecdote on Michelangelo fit your ds's dilemmi. It took Michelangelo forever before he was satisfied with a work (and I don't say completely because I doubt he was ever completely satisfied).
Are we ever satisfied?
Writers know that edits could go on forever. We constantly see changes we'd like to make...even after publication. Sometimes writers get so bogged down with the details, they never finish anything...much less get it out there. I usually push myself to *get it out* because I know it will never be perfect and will gather dust in a closet if I don't just do it and consider it *good enough*.
Great works, like Michaelangelo, are great and magnificent because of the detail he put into his work and the years he spent before allowing anything to *get out there*. So, Christian might just be in excellent company.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Leonie
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Cindy,
As you know, my T is my different child. But I hesitate to call him sensitive because I worry about labelling him forever. That is why I am happy with posting this on the unschooling thread and - it is unschooling that "works" with T.
Why? Perhaps because I am not making him do lots of schoolwork and am trying to listen to his needs and his individuality.
Mind you, the morning yesterday was difficult for us - it all started with T not wanting to go to a park day and unwilling to compromise.
Leonie in Sydney
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ALmom
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Elizabeth,
I noticed something you said about fine motor? We have a lot of difficulties in that area in our household which means that some children really do not run with an unschooling and I am not technically an unschooler - my oown difficulties or something like that. Hope you don't mind me posting but I thought our experience might help. If it does - great. If not, then just ignore it.
Anyways, ignore me if this doesn't fit but I was wondering (don't answer me - just questions to ask in terms of observations for yourself and what has happened over the years). Rubbing eyes?, Head tilt?, closing one eye, lots of motion when doing close work, avoidance of close work, low confidence, jerky eye movements, fine motor difficulties, reversals, skipping small words, lower reading comprehension, dizziness, headaches/nausea, etc. , etc. Sometimes some of these are signs of a real physical eye problem. We have had 5 of our 6 children with some degree of vision difficulty - and one that had 20/20 acuity to boot. It was difficult to diagnose until we found the right person.
It might be worth having a more extensive eye exam the next time dc is due for normal eye check. Be sure to find a fellow with the college of optometry for vision development and be sure they are testing for a full range - not just your typical exam and that they use a vision therapist, not an occupational therapist. The exam our children had involved an additional 2 hours of testing because the Dr. detected subtle jerky eye motions that he made sure we could also see. You can see a little more about this on the PAVE website. One contributing factor is video games, but we had none of the risk factors in our family and still had the problem.
Because of the physical eye problems, our children didn't develop normal vision processing skills - one child caught right up once her physical problem was solved, the other is still struggling with some of the processing problems and 2 are still correcting physical problems. One child had most of the problems corrected and felt it just wasn't worth the work anymore (and money) but did get her beyond getting sick to her stomach after 30 minutes of reading. Anyways there are things that can be done to improve those skills too - although some of them are harder to deal with. We found it helped our children just to know what was going on, especially the one with the most severe problems (who now is our best reader and writer). It also helps know what needs to be "pushed" to get over a real problem and what kinds of things are particularly difficult for a child. IE we have found out that left/right difficulties and visual memory difficulties have a large impact on spelling - so we didn't worry about some of that until we were a little further along on the therapy where success was more likely.
When a child seems really adverse to school - especially when it has been a delight led like unschooling, then it seems worthwhile to at least eliminate the possibility of a problem. The problem we had was finding the problem - it took us 2 years + and we went to many doctors who either misdiagnosed or found only the processing problems and not the physical problem. We found many who have responded to us as if the whole idea is goofy - but we know how much difference it has made in our children's lives when nothing they wanted us to do helped. MDs think it is funny, in general, and even a lot of optometrists but optometrists have been working in this area since at least the 1950s.
Hope this helps give you some ideas. Insurance may cover the testing (not the therapy - but we have arranged for home therapy)
Janet
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Elizabeth
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Update:
My dh had a long talk with Christian and told him that he hated to write when he was in school, because he wasn't any good at it. But he had to write because it wasn't an option to refuse to do schoolwork. (Not exactly an unschooling take, huh?) So, with lots of practice, he got better and gained confidence. Or did he gain confidence and get better? Either way, just saying "no" wasn't allowed.
We started Lingua Mater Tuesday as well. I had planned to use it only with Patrick until Bravewriter was over for Christian but it filled the need for a change of venue. We did all of it orally except for the three nature sentences at the end. He hemmed and hawed a very little bit and then he wrote those. Interestingly, I didn't get to Patrick with the same assignment until yesterday. Christian walked in just as I was discussing the three sentences with Paddy. Paddy was whining. Remember, we went to the pond on Wednesday.So, Christian told Patrick to buck up and promptly rattled off three beautiful nature sentences with strong nouns taken directly from the previous day's experience.
I wrote to Rachel on Tuesday and still haven't heard from her. Maybe I used the wrong address...I hope to get Christian on board with Bravewriter. It may not have been his idea, but he did agree to do it. And I'm not inclined to let him go back on his word. I think there is value in following through on something you agreed to do as well as ensuring that we don't waste curriculum money. Believe me, I've abandoned materials before--there are shelves of things here that have been abandoned--but this is not a problematic curriculum. It can easily be adapted to suit the needs of the child.
And here is an interesting video game aside: ever since he was tiny, Christian has played video games on his feet, jumping the entire time. Last weekend, we visited my husband's sister and her family. My 6 yo nephew is autistic. He asked Christian to play Gamecube with him. This is the fist time we've seen J play--my sister-in-law held out on not buying games for a long, long time. My nephew jumped the whole time they played. Even more interesting, he beat Christian (our game expert) handily. Apparently, he is able to memorize nuances of the game and easily cruise through to levels heretofore unknown. Christian was blown away by the experience. He's been talking about it incessantly since Sunday. First, he was amazed by J. He was dumbfounded at having been beaten by a 6yo(but in a very admiring, good-natured way). He was determined to have another go. And, I think he was noticing similarities in personality. Christian is not autistic, but we talked about how the brain works and I think now he sees that people can think differently and "different" isn't bad. He really admires J. We talked about Bill Gates and how differently he thinks and what blessings that has brought. We talked about Einstein. And then, he called my sister-in-law and offerd to come play with J after he finishes reffing soccer on Saturday. He's eager to get inside his mind.
And he's determined to beat him. The blessing here? No one has ever called and invited himself for a playdate with J. Outside of video games, he's never played WITH anyone. And,until Christian came over, no one in his family knew the game could be a two person game. Christian knows he's really making J happy. And he is offering my exhausted s-i-l a welcome reprieve. This little boy is just tickled beyond belief to be a playmate in demand. There are blessings all the way around. God knows what He's doing...sometimes I just have to be reminded...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Bridget
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Elizabeth, you have mentioned before that Christian is a lot like his dad. Well, Mike is hugely successful in his marriage, his career and living his faith. Christian will be too.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Elizabeth
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Bridget,
My sister-in-law pointed out the other day that my dh was addicted to video games until he was 30!I remember asking for an Intellevsion in high school, just so he'd come over. We all got a huge laugh out of that.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Meredith
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Eliazbeth, I don't have anything to add here other than to say I just loved your post about your son and GOD is SO GOOD! Have a beautiful and blessed day! Hugs!
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Meredith
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Cindy
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Leonie wrote:
Cindy,
As you know, my T is my different child. But I hesitate to call him sensitive because I worry about labelling him forever. That is why I am happy with posting this on the unschooling thread and - it is unschooling that "works" with T.
Leonie in Sydney |
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Yes, Leonie. Instinctvily I know you are right. The same reason why I have avoided labels. My thought was we might gather others who have similar situations and want to share. But, I am much more comfortable in the unschooling place. My fav definition of unschooling is 'doing whatever works for each child' with an side note of finding out who your child is first.
So.. let's just stay here!
Thanks for reminding me.
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Cindy in Texas
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Cindy
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Along this topic about 'special needs'. etc... I was looking around a site for an unschooling conference and found this description of a topic. I don't know the speakers, but I liked the description:
"Unschooling: So that ALL Children May Shine!" - Anne and Jake Ohman
Join Anne and her always unschooled son, Jake (15) as they talk about their journey to unschooling and how they believe that unschooling allows all non-typical (as well as more typical! ;-) children (Highly Sensitive, Out of Sync) to Shine by Honoring and Celebrating Who They Are. These are the sensitive spirits who would be quickly destroyed in a schooled environment, and who would most likely be labeled and sent on a path of being *fixed*. When we talk about *Shining* with unschooling, we are talking about the gift that this glorious unschooling path offers to our children...the gift of being able to follow their own hearts, their own passions and share their gifts with the world. This is how all children should Shine.
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Cindy in Texas
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Leonie
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Are there any tapes available, Cindy?
Leonie in Sydney
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Cay Gibson
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I've heard (and read) the very best writers say that writing is work! It's a joy too, but still work!
And it doesn't matter if it comes natural to you or not.
My 15 yr old daughter received an acceptance letter yesterday to the National Honor Society. She was very nonchalant about it. Her dad told her it would definitely looked good on a resume . She is expected to turn in a 150-200 word essay by month's end. Piece of cake for her. She's just finished a 500 word essay on American Red Cross Founder---Clara Barton.
My dear darling husband (great at math and science but who spells no better than my 17 yr old)was quick to make the remark that he was relieved of the pressure of being in school and having to write essay papers. Dreaded things! <Whew!> This coming from a man who figures it's no sweat in having to stay at the plant till 12 midnight to repair a high-pressure furnace valve (he's an instrument tech), but he freezes on paper.
Yet, on telling her grandparents about the NHS acceptance, Kayleigh breathed a great sigh and said, "Worse part is I have to write an essay paper."
So---no matter what end of the spectrum you're on---writing is a labor. Either a labor of love or a labor of loath.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Leonie
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Congratulations to your dd, Cay!
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Leonie in Sydney
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Bravewriter, Unschooling, and Video games
