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hopalenik
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| Posted: Jan 28 2008 at 10:52pm | IP Logged
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I am going to jump in here...the homosexuality issue is one that has always affected me deeply. I grew up in the ballet world and all the men that I knew were gay...I have gay family, grew up with gay neighbors, dated at least 6 gays before they came out. I was completely immersed in this world. Because of that, I have had to search and come to grips with what the Church states about homosexuality for many years. Before I start, I also need to warn that my writing style is strong and I have always been considered very blunt. I missed the feminine quality of softening my words and struggle to develop it so please don't take anything personally.
But actually, the sin of homosexual activity is a greater sin than any heterosexual sin because it is against the natural order of things. I think that if one reads the first Chapter of Romans, there is a very clear description of how the homosexual condition is completely fallen.
Romans Chapter 1:18-32 to be specific but I will pare down my quote substantially.
"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, an dworshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever...For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, mem with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things,disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who knowing the righteous judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not ONLY DO THE SAME BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM."
Quoting from the Catechism,
"tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances are they to be approved. 2357
Now I could quote what some of the saints have said in the past but that might shut down the board. It is uncharitable to state that someone is going to h*ll or to presume that you are in a holier state than someone else. But it is not uncharitable to protect your children from someone who is obviously not living in accordance to the Catholic or basic Christian tenets.
St. Paul was quite clear in Corithinians-loves does not rejoice in wrong but only right. And Jesus says the same thing in his speech about the commandments and love-love does no wrong. That is the real meaning of charity, not dancing around our words in some sacrament of politically correct speech.
Unfortunately, most homosexuals are not living according to those commandments or the tenets of Christianity in general, therefore we are being charitable by avoiding excessive contact with them which could indirectly be used by them mentally as approval.
BUT the flip side of that as Barbara correctly pointed out is that we must be just as firm and charitable in refusing to accept our heterosexual friends and families sins. For example, we should probably not go over to the house of our unmarried but shacking up sibling...we can charitably invite them over to our home for dinner but in order not to send mixed messages to our kids we really shouldn't go over to their house. And in that sense I agree with Barbara. Most of us have let the unchastity in our family and friends lives go in order not to rock the boat but then we make a big deal about the gay family in dance class. And that attitude probably is uncharitable. But it is not uncharitable to remove your kids from a situation where you believe their innocence will be compromised.
In this specific situation, the child may not at this time do any significant damage but who is to say that 4 or 5 years from now they wouldn't? And what about possible social entanglements in the future? That is a very hard call and one that could only be made by the parents and a priest in my mind.
I personally, have known so many gay men in my life. I have had very close personal relationships with gay men and was considered the original f*g h*g in college. I know the gay world and I would NEVER allow my child to be exposed to it. Unfortunately, in the past few years with the gay marriage debate become full swing, I have found that even the mild gay friends that I had, now fully believe that every child needs to hear all the gory details and completely accept them for who they are and what they do. Trust me. I spent 4 years in college helping a university design the brainwashing programs that are now used by the gay, bisexual groups that have infiltrated the public school system. I thought that I was just going through Resident Assistent Diversity Training, I have since seen the training protocols floating around on line and they are verbatim, as to how we made good MidWestern Christians feel OK about homosexuality. The primary manner was to always make the person feel as if they were being uncharitable. If you feel as if you did something wrong or hurt someone's feelings then are you are less likely to stand up for your moral beliefs. I love my gay friends and pray for them every day, but I do not allow my children unsupervised contact with those who are even family members. And I do not allow my children any contact with those family members unless they understand that there is to be zero discussion, innuedo, or anything else. Some have chosen to condemn me, some have chosen to remain in my families life but in a very distant way. I have never discussed their lifestyle and quite frankly never will. It is not my children's business to ever know what is going on in another adults life. This is not burying my head in the sand, this is safeguarding my children's souls.
I heard a priest once give a talk about Mary. He reminded us that if the society that Mary lived in was anywhere near as morally polluted as this one is she would have traveled to Egypt under cover of darkness in order to prevent being scandalized by it. And while it is not possible in most circumstances for us to completely remove ourselves from the immorality that is everywhere-both heterosexual and homosexual, I think that we all have to step back from time to time and reflect on how much immorality we tacitly ignore just for comforts sake. I know that I do it alot. And while thier needs to be a prayful response to each individual situation and sometimes you keep them in the dance class and do your best to screen the lifestyle from your children and pray really hard to the guardian angels..."Please guardian angel, protect their innocence and keep them from seeing and hearing what they should not". Sometimes maybe you have to remove your child from the situation but please don't allow anyone to ever make you feel uncharitable. It is uncharitable to stand by condone someone's behaviour that you know leads to the path of h*ll...whether they actually get their or not is in God's hands. Please notice that I did not state that they are going to h*ll, as the Church states that we do not know if anyone is in h*ll.
In Christ.
Holly
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Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
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teachingmom
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Virginia Bluebells
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| Posted: Jan 28 2008 at 11:35pm | IP Logged
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I've been pondering this statement for the past few days. I talked about it with my husband this evening to be sure I wasn't off base in my understanding of Church teaching. On the one hand you are correct: both homosexual sexual activity and heterosexual sexual activity outside of marriage are mortally sinful, objectively speaking. If homosexual unchastity is somehow "more sinful" then it really doesn't matter. As my husband pointed out: it's not as if the homosexual sinner is separated from God by a thick black veil and the heterosexual sinner is separated by a thinner curtain. Mortal sin is mortal sin and both cause complete separation from God.
However, I believe that one can think of homosexual activity as worse, in some sense. As Hope pointed out, the Catechism calls is a "disorder." It goes against the nuptial meaning of the body. At least heterosexually unchaste activity preserves in some way that nuptial meaning and has the possibility to be made right through the Sacrament of Marriage. (After Confession, of course!) Homosexual activity can never be right - it will always be objectively disordered and sinful.
I do think that most of the time when someone on this board or in other Christian settings makes negative comments about homosexuality or homosexuals, they are speaking of active homosexuals (those with a very dangerous agenda, as mentioned above), and not, for example, the young bachelor who lives chastely but struggles silently with same sex attraction. The original question that started this conversation had to do with the scandalous situation of a boy with "two moms."
I think it's important to be able to make these sorts of distinctions, without being considered uncharitable, while honoring the dignity of all people involved.
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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MaryM
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| Posted: Jan 29 2008 at 12:31am | IP Logged
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This is a very complicated subject and hard to discuss in general and probably even harder to discuss in a forum/internet setting, so thank you everyone for your efforts toward respectful and tempered communication. Please continue to keep that in mind. The discussion has diverged from the original question.
First we have the initial question about how to handle a difficult question raised by a child. It is a huge challenge to formulate a response to our children when faced with a behavior/reality that is contrary to the truth that we teach them. Various responses and suggestions have been given and Sarah has taken this to prayer and she and her husband are addressing it for their family. Thank you all for helping Sarah with answers to addressing this with her child. We must remember that both her child and the child at the atrium are innocent children in this situation.
Another aspect of this discussion has been an assertion that there is a sentiment at times on the board that unchaste behavior from a homosexual is more of a sin than unchaste behavior from an unmarried heterosexuals or adultery. It is important to hold to the truth that all sins against chastity are offensive to God and do go against His plan for marriage and human sexuality.
We do have 10 commandments. The sixth one of which is pretty specific – Thou shalt not commit adultery. All sins against chastity fall under this commandment and the tenth commandment, so any relationships of a sexual nature outside of the marriage covenant are sins against chastity.
The Catechism clearly identifies grave sins against chastity. There are several not just one, all grave.
Quote:
| 2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices. |
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In general defense of the board as an entity and the members in general, I think most here are very concerned about sins against chastity in all these forms. Yes, members have expressed concern in past threads regarding this topic when it impacts or touches their lives. But members here also express concern about having to face situations which include grandma's live-in boyfriend or a pregnant teenage cousin and how to talk with children about it or what kind of contact to have as a family. I don't think our board members’ views are anywhere near society, in general, which does have much tolerance for the other sins of chastity mentioned. I think we are equal opportunity in our struggle to shelter our children from impurity and teach them truth.
And specifically in regards to the issue of the sin of homosexuality when there has been uncharitable and inflammatory post/threads started they have been deleted immediately. And I recognize there are have been strong posts in regards to the polical activism of the homosexual lobby, which is a different matter than individual sin and sinners.
Barbara has hit on a reality of human nature and that is that people in general do have a different gut reaction to the sin of homosexual practice. Because in addition to being a grave sin these actions are intrinsically disordered against natural law.
Again from the Catechism as Holly quoted:
Quote:
| 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. |
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With homosexual relations (not inclinations) there are not any circumstances under which these practice can be made correct or right (as opposed to relations between a man and a women which are right and ordered within the covenant of marriage). The nature of homosexual practices as intrinsically disordered against natural law is what elicits strong feelings or reactions, especially when the teaching of children is involved.
Which brings us to the point that the discussion has also gone into how we as Christians are to respond. The catechism speaks very clearly to the fact that we are to treat those with homosexual tendencies with respect, compassion, and sensitivity - reiterating Jesus’ call to love one another. It has been mentioned in this thread - “hating the sin, but loving the sinner.”
From Catechism:
Quote:
| 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. |
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WWJD? in this situation – He would show tremendous love to this child. He would also show tremendous love to the mother and other woman. We would also tell them to sin no more, to live chaste lives. He would love unconditionally but he wouldn’t let anyone off the hook for their behavior. He offered the ultimate sacrifice for the effects of human behavior/sin and He calls us to always seek to live a holy life and repent when we fall from that. What a challenge it is to “love the sinner but hate the sin” and really always do both. We are not called to hate the sin and continually chastise and ostracize the sinner, but neither are we entreated to love the sinner and forget/overlook the sin and its effect on that person's salvation. Truly doing both in Christian charity is not easy. No one said it would be easy to follow Him.
And with that I am asking as a moderator that if there are specific responses directly related to Sarah's original question of how to deal with this personally with her child, then respond, but otherwise let's not continue along the other tracks that have developed.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Help! How do I handle this question??
