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Nina Murphy
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You are an angel for your insight and compassion, Lisa.
** Not everyone has experienced this in truth, so they truly do not understand....but it is a painful reality for some and can not be dismissed. I hope others will be willing to share; but if not, please do pray for those women in Catholic marriages who are faithful, but under duress, unsure of how to proceed in a way pleasing to God and fruitful for all involved. And feeling quite alone and confused about how to live with such pain, with grace---without despairing or becoming increasingly demoralized and disillusioned.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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PDyer
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| (Now: don't you think this is more common than not? Let's be honest. How many men deal well with this? I have read book after book including the Care and Feeding of Husbands and a book rec. by Steve Wood on What Men Want saying that making yourself available physically to your husband is so crucial to the well-being of a marriage, that is basic.) |
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I haven't read the books you cite, so I want to clarify this in my own mind...are these books making this a blanket recommendation, that a wife must be "available physically" to a husband or risk of harming their marriage?
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Patty
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msclavel
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Nina Murphy wrote:
But if one of the spouses is not "cooperative" concerning the use of very conservative NFP? What if, for instance, the partner of a woman with severe reasons to avoid a pregnancy does not see eye to eye on the level of seriousness and pressures the woman either consciously or unconsciously (through moodiness, anger, and other negative effects in the home or on the children)---so therefore, she does not feel "safe" trusting the implementation of NFP?...
How does a Catholic woman deal with this lack of support----especially when everyone in her extended family and medical community is telling her she is truly irresponsible and self-destructive not to protect herself through permanent avoidance of pregnancy. |
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Nina, this is an excellent point. I knew a marriage that ended in a terrible situation over these very issues. I was involved at one point, working hard to get the husband into counseling, which he did. Sadly it was too much for the wife, so many years of anger and hurt, she was not willing to accept and work with his slow process of change (which happily he did, really turned his life around, though it cost him his family). She let bitterness get the best of her and she pretty much left the Church. There have been struggles in my own marriage over openness to life. In fact we're struggling through right now. Your friend is blessed to have you in her life. I can only pray that any of us can listen and love families struggling with these painful issues and always shine the light of Truth.
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Nina Murphy
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PDyer wrote:
Nina Murphy wrote:
| (Now: don't you think this is more common than not? Let's be honest. How many men deal well with this? I have read book after book including the Care and Feeding of Husbands and a book rec. by Steve Wood on What Men Want saying that making yourself available physically to your husband is so crucial to the well-being of a marriage, that is basic.) |
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I haven't read the books you cite, so I want to clarify this in my own mind...are these books making this a blanket recommendation, that a wife must be "available physically" to a husband or risk of harming their marriage? |
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Patty, I would have to get my copy of Dr. Laura's book down and I am too lazy right now. But yes, outside of abuse and addiction, she has a chapter on how important it is to the health of the marriage that a woman is aware of how this contributes to a husband's happiness and the happiness of the marriage. I am sorry not to be quoting her. I can try to later. I also have read a book called The Surrendered Wife where she stresses this. There are so many others.
Perhaps it was irresponsible to cite the Steve Wood program as I do not remember the exact title of the book he was referencing during this Audio with his daughter, Stephanie. It was something like "What Men Really Want" or something like that. Again, I apologize. But one of his main points was how important physical intimacy is to men in a marriage. He didn't state it in a controversial or shocking way....it was more common sense. I don't remember reacting in a surprised manner. I always find Steve Wood very charitable and sensible (and sensitive).
But I am alone in having read/heard this? I am surprised. No one else has read/heard the counsel that a wife is perhaps somehow contributing to (if not partially culpable for) an occasion of sin for her husband if she refuses relations or is "not available"?
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God bless,
~~Nina
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PDyer
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| But I am alone in having read/heard this? I am surprised. No one else has read/heard the counsel that a wife is perhaps somehow contributing to (if not partially culpable for) an occasion of sin for her husband if she refuses relations or is "not available"? |
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If that's the case and no sensitivity is given to couples in difficult situations (pelvic rest during pregnancy, for example???), I'm shocked. There is NO consideration given to serious reasons to practice periodic continence?
Editing to add: how to reconcile this with the Theology of the Body 124:2 (general audience of August 29, 1984):?
"..."The honorable practice of regulating birth rates demands firts of all that husband and wife acquire and possess solid convictions concerning the true values of life and of the family, and that they strive to acquire perfect self-mastery. Dominion over instinct by means of one's reason and free will undoubtedly requires an ascesis, so that the affective manifestations of conjugal life may observe the correct order, in particular with regard to the observance of periodic continence. Yet this discipline, which is proper to the purity of married couples, far from harming conjugal love, rather confers on it a higher human value. It demands continual effect yet, thanks to its beneficient influence, husband and wife fully develop their personalities, being enriched with spiritual values (HV 21)."
Italics in original; bold is my emphasis.
I'm truly confused.
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
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Nina Murphy
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msclavel wrote:
Nina Murphy wrote:
But if one of the spouses is not "cooperative" concerning the use of very conservative NFP? What if, for instance, the partner of a woman with severe reasons to avoid a pregnancy does not see eye to eye on the level of seriousness and pressures the woman either consciously or unconsciously (through moodiness, anger, and other negative effects in the home or on the children)---so therefore, she does not feel "safe" trusting the implementation of NFP?...
How does a Catholic woman deal with this lack of support----especially when everyone in her extended family and medical community is telling her she is truly irresponsible and self-destructive not to protect herself through permanent avoidance of pregnancy. |
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Nina, this is an excellent point. I knew a marriage that ended in a terrible situation over these very issues. I was involved at one point, working hard to get the husband into counseling, which he did. Sadly it was too much for the wife, so many years of anger and hurt, she was not willing to accept and work with his slow process of change (which happily he did, really turned his life around, though it cost him his family). She let bitterness get the best of her and she pretty much left the Church. There have been struggles in my own marriage over openness to life. In fact we're struggling through right now. Your friend is blessed to have you in her life. I can only pray that any of us can listen and love families struggling with these painful issues and always shine the light of Truth. |
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Thank you, Maria. And to all the others who have PMed me. This is indeed a delicate subject, I understand. I just wanted to add this different angle for consideration when we are dealing with such a sensitive issue. We need to be there for each other as women. The original question was about how to help this particular woman who is (confiding her struggle to another woman) with the tempation to sterilize. She is obviously under great pressure and suffering, and yes, does need the facts----but is also reaching out for help. It's an opportunity to minister to her  so that her heart has a chance for healing and hope and she doesn't succumb to giving up, or losing her Faith out of desperation. The Devil would love that.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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The book was His Needs, Her Needs: Building An Affair-Proof Marriage.
This is from the Amazon site, from a reviewer:
"This is a good book for couples to read and discuss: you may not agree with it, but it is a good discussion starter.
The marriage counsellor author claims to have found 10 basic needs people have and has sorted them into the top 5 for men and top 5 for women.
His list of the top emotional needs is:
1. Affection (her #1 need)
2. Sexual Fulfilment (his #1 need)
3. Conversation (her #2 need)
4. Recreational Companionship (his #2 need)
5. Honesty and Openness (her #3 need)
6. An Attractive Spouse (his #3 need)
7. Financial Support (her #4 need)
8. Domestic Support [= help with household duties] (his #4 need)
9. Family Commitment [= help with child-rearing] (her #5 need)
10. Admiration (his #5 need)"
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Edit: I added the parentheses to clarify.
I don't want to go off on a tangent here. I just wanted to share that this book was mentioned by a prominent Catholic expert on marriage and family life. Just to clarify, it doesn't matter what these books are saying---everyone is free to have his or her opinion!
But when discussing very serious reasons for a couple to avoid a pregnancy, it is necessary to honestly talk about the struggles with accepting if it will be a good thing or not to implement serious prolonged continence. And that some spouses don't do well with it, or don't feel they can rely on it, and it can be a scary thing for the wife. But of course, then enters the question of God's Will, and grace, and prayer/the Cross, and etc. etc. And that is a whole 'nother thread!!!!
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~~Nina
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PDyer
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Nina Murphy wrote:
But when discussing very serious reasons for a couple to avoid a pregnancy, it is necessary to honestly talk about the struggles with accepting if it will be a good thing or not to implement serious prolonged continence. And that some spouses don't do well with it, or don't feel they can rely on it, and it can be a scary thing for the wife. But of course, then enters the question of God's Will, and grace, and prayer/the Cross, and etc. etc. And that is a whole 'nother thread!!!!
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Certainly! I'm not trying to minimize the struggles involved with being faithful in this area; my concern is in avoiding presenting the idea that periodic continence will do harm to a marriage, because as JPII indicates, that is not necessarily the case.
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
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(Yikes, I apologize for being confusing. In other words, acc. to this book, men's needs are: First, sexual fulfillment, then: recreational companionship, then: an attractive spouse, domestic support, admiration. We don't have to discuss this book!)
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~~Nina
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Maddie
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| But I am alone in having read/heard this? I am surprised. No one else has read/heard the counsel that a wife is perhaps somehow contributing to (if not partially culpable for) an occasion of sin for her husband if she refuses relations or is "not available"? |
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I once read a letter from a man to an NFP instructor venting his frustration with NFP (it was online and public) one of the things that struck me was how much he (and most men I would think) struggled with having the soft po**ography displayed in our culture today, ie. the checkouts, the billboards, etc. He would come home after being bombarded all day with it and like a good husband prayed for purity against it, and then at home his wife was either not available because of the NFP charts or her mood. It made me so much more sympathetic to my dh, I had never considered it in that light. I know he would never seek comfort elsewhere, but surely I who loves him so much, could be more aware of this and not be so quick to judge his affections. Like all "sacrifices" you make for loved ones, you usually wind up getting the joy and graces you never expected. God is so very, very good. In fact, one of those little "Graces" (4 months old) is asleep on my lap. 
Anyway, just a small take on that thought.
I am afraid for this mother, in talking with her she knows she will be going against the Church, but her fear is so great that she will leave her dh a widower with children that she's considering taking the risk of a mortal sin. 
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~Maddie~
Wife to my dh and Momma of 9 dear ones
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Maddie
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Martha wrote:
| There are other options such as NFP, prevention measures to head off repeating past issues such as hbp, ect... |
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I've been meaning to ask, what is hbp? 
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~Maddie~
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wwandsprmn
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This is a deeply personal issue for me so sorry if this is too long. I have heart problems, and had an aneurysm rupture (in my brain). I have blood pressure issues, and very high risk pregnancies. 3 miscarriages, and 3 beautiful babies on earth.
After my last son was born, and I almost died in labor, we were terrified. We had converted only 3 yrs prior and knew virtually nothing about this teaching. We went to our parish priest and told him my doc wanted my hubby to have a vasectomy. He said if we had given it prayer and thoughtfully considered it, it was fine. He even said, this is one reason why so many turn away from the church.
We had the procedure and I immediately knew we had sinned. I grieved and cried. On a retreat a couple months later I turned it over to God, and prayed for Him to show me what we could do to repair this. I discovered Scott Hahn on that retreat. Then Kimberly's book, Life Giving Love. I was so convicted I pleaded with my husband to read the book but he refused. He was so afraid.
My faith grew exponentially!! A year later I asked my husband if I could read him one passage from the book. I did. He paused and said, "we have to undo this". God had been preparing his heart and he realized we are ministers of the sacrament of marriage and we were offering a false example. We were misguiding those we should be ministering to through our example! We were false teachers! yikes!
We got on the waiting list through the military to have it reversed. They told us the list was so long there was really no hope... 8 mo. later they called!! When we met the doc before the surgery, he had the Blessed Mother ON HIS DESK! He was Catholic and prayed with us!
It was reversed.
18 mo later we went to a urologist to see why we hadn't conceived. The doc I got from the phone book, he was Catholic...and about the only urologist in St. Louis who doesn't sterilize as a matter of faith! He prayed with us! I conceived but miscarried last year. He referred me to St. Gerard's OB clinic. My new Catholic doc has found some more health issues, and while he agrees more pregnancies will carry some risk he fully believes I can carry and survive beautifully! He will not allow me to labor ever again, but he respects my "choice" ;) AND he says the risks were greatly exaggerated by a system that just doesn't get it.
Our family is livid. Afraid more than anything but livid too. My poor husband gets slammed as if HE is putting my life at risk.
My health CAN be managed. It won't be a cake walk, and I will have to be extremely diligent and careful about my health(not my strong suit) but what a small price to pay. It's a few months. I so fully trust God. How can I claim to trust Him otherwise? I know that He will care for me if I do my part and if creating life took mine...well you gotta go sometime and I can't imagine a better way to go. My mom HATES it when I say that! I'm not afraid, I am excited, I believe 100% that we have not traveled this road in vain. God did not bring us here to abandon us! Now, I just have to get my health in order, get my hormones in order, learn this Creighton Method, and set the table. Oh and prepare to start over again at 37! (My oldest is 17, I have 12 and 7 too.)
Please offer your friend the book Life Giving Love, it transformed my life, my marriage, my faith. I will pray for her.
(sorry it's so long)
Blessings,
Robin
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LisaR
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Nina, I "get" what you are trying to communicate here. and I thank you for doing it. I know so many women who are struggling with their dh's addiction/or struggle in this area, and it can get "blurred" with "duty" "needs" etc. It really is a sticky topic, made all the more difficult to bear if a couple is facing a grave need to abstain to postpone a pregnancy.
I know wives, who have felt, out of "duty" to their dh's, to go on the pill so that they can "obey and say yes" , even though they "know better".
Dh just mentioned that the average man thinks about relations 33 times a day.
We are a "want it now, get it now" and the value of waiting for anything is not there. Even in Biblical times couples abstained the first 14 days of every cycle, and orthodox Jews still do.
Dh tells people he teaches that no one ever died from not having relations, but many sure act like they will.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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Beautiful Robin. thank you so much for your witness.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Nina Murphy
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Robin, THANK YOU.
YOu will never know who you have affected by posting that! We need to hear those stories. Things aren't "solved" even though it seems like they will be....
By the way, my friend has read the book. But things are *very* complicated----sigh. What can we say? Prayer.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Maddie
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wwandsprmn wrote:
| It's a few months. I so fully trust God. How can I claim to trust Him otherwise? I know that He will care for me if I do my part and if creating life took mine...well you gotta go sometime and I can't imagine a better way to go. |
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Wow, thank you so much for sharing your beautiful faith journey, prayers for you and your family for whatever plans God has for you.
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~Maddie~
Wife to my dh and Momma of 9 dear ones
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Nina Murphy
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LisaR wrote:
Nina, I "get" what you are trying to communicate here. and I thank you for doing it. I know so many women who are struggling with their dh's addiction/or struggle in this area, and it can get "blurred" with "duty" "needs" etc. It really is a sticky topic, made all the more difficult to bear if a couple is facing a grave need to abstain to postpone a pregnancy.
I know wives, who have felt, out of "duty" to their dh's, to go on the pill so that they can "obey and say yes" , even though they "know better".
Dh just mentioned that the average man thinks about relations 33 times a day.
We are a "want it now, get it now" and the value of waiting for anything is not there. Even in Biblical times couples abstained the first 14 days of every cycle, and orthodox Jews still do.
Dh tells people he teaches that no one ever died from not having relations, but many sure act like they will. |
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Thank you for "getting" me because I fear I made a muddle of what I was trying to say.
But you just perfectly, perfectly pinned the dilemma: the "right" people feel to relations. Even my mother warned me that men NEED frequency, s-xiness, etc. and it doesn't change as they age! (My mouth just hangs open and I stare blankly....what do you say? TMI!!!! Hands over ears: don't wanna know!) But actually, I have heard this from MANY Catholic sources. So, it is sending mixed messages to women (not to mention, men!).
Your husband is wise. YOu are blessed. I suppose my point was hard to express and it is this: doesn't NFP and continence and understanding that we don't have a "need" or a RIGHT to relations, require a certain godliness and good formation? The men who understand this and are wonderfully supportive are truly holy men. And they are right. I am NOT saying men shouldn't be this way. On the contrary, I think it is the way of Christ to be able to say NO to yourself for the sake of one you love! But I am questioning how many men are raised well to embrace this and implement it and are disciplined on this level or prepared for it, and do not somehow "take the frustration out on" their wives or children.
For those of you with good Catholic husbands who were given a good example, good foundation, and understand the need for periodic or extended continence and put it into practice well, you are very blessed indeed.
If it IS true that a woman's number one needs are not oriented toward s-xual fulfillment and she still feels desperate to get sterilized (in other words, isn't motivated by selfish desire nor intends to use her spouse), then aren't her motivations coming from deep fear that things will fall apart in her family life....that she has to do it for the sake of preserving peace in the relationship on some level?
In Maddie's friend's case, I don't know. She really is fearing death and the repercussions of it for her family. So is my friend. And I feel trite telling my friend, "then that would be God's Will" and we have to trust that our children would be OK and taken care of (which I actually think I said to her). Still, the Church teaches the Truth of Christ. Sometimes, it is so SO hard. We still have to obey, but it doesn't mean it won't have very challenging repercussions that sometimes bring us to the edge. The Cross can be so heavy and we so weak that we fall. Let us be Simons as best we can to one another.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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PDyer wrote:
Nina Murphy wrote:
| But I am alone in having read/heard this? I am surprised. No one else has read/heard the counsel that a wife is perhaps somehow contributing to (if not partially culpable for) an occasion of sin for her husband if she refuses relations or is "not available"? |
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If that's the case and no sensitivity is given to couples in difficult situations (pelvic rest during pregnancy, for example???), I'm shocked. There is NO consideration given to serious reasons to practice periodic continence?
Editing to add: how to reconcile this with the Theology of the Body 124:2 (general audience of August 29, 1984):?
"..."The honorable practice of regulating birth rates demands firts of all that husband and wife acquire and possess solid convictions concerning the true values of life and of the family, and that they strive to acquire perfect self-mastery. Dominion over instinct by means of one's reason and free will undoubtedly requires an ascesis, so that the affective manifestations of conjugal life may observe the correct order, in particular with regard to the observance of periodic continence. Yet this discipline, which is proper to the purity of married couples, far from harming conjugal love, rather confers on it a higher human value. It demands continual effect yet, thanks to its beneficient influence, husband and wife fully develop their personalities, being enriched with spiritual values (HV 21)."
Italics in original; bold is my emphasis.
I'm truly confused. |
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OH, Patty, I missed this before. I TOTALLY agree with you and with the Holy Father!!!! Would all human beings act with this goodness and dignity!!!! Would all marriages be sanctified and self-sacrificing in this way! Please, God, may people be better educated and prepared for marriage today! May laying down one's life in marriage take on true meaning.
But my experience as a Catholic woman married for 20 years in a traditional, homeschooling community sadly is that many marriages do not have this, and many men are not prepared to be heroic in this way. And many women are truly confused about how to respond! I am not going to say *I* haven't been, especially not coming from a good Christian background either. And I have been put on pelvic rest several times----including now, because my varicosities are that bad! (Sorry for TMI.) But it is not without repercussions.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Sarah in SC
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Nina Murphy wrote:
By the way, my friend has read the book. But things are *very* complicated----sigh. What can we say? Prayer. |
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Nina, I'm praying for your friend.
I was going to write, when I saw someone suggested that book, to please reconsider offering it to her. As someone who has shared many of your friend's struggles, I wouldn't think it would be exceptionally helpful. I don't mean any disrespect for Mrs. Hahn (and am not starting a debate), but her passages/chapter that deal/s with risky pregnancies seemed rather flippant and condescending when I was at the peak of my struggles. Suggesting to someone who is afraid for her life, (or sanity, or both!), that perhaps she hadn't really been given correct information, or that the situation really may not be that dire, or making one feel that their fear was unfounded, or perhaps they just hadn't prayed hard enough, or sacrificed enough, or trusted enough-- I was stunned by the suggestions and hurt and angry that the topic was being dealt in such a blase manner.
I will pray for your friend, as I feel her pain--with a lot of the struggles you mentioned she's dealing with. Each of us walks such an infinitely personal path to motherhood, and it's hard to remember that sometimes the path to motherhood is an infinite cross for people. I have often heard that story about how if you could go into a room and select your cross, you'd often come out with the exact same one you carry right now--but I've often questioned that story during my nine losses.
As I count my newest ones 10 perfect toes (am I the only one who says the rosary on her babies' toes?), I will remember your friend. I'm so glad she has you for a friend.
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Happy wife to Tom and mama to Mac, 12, Hannah, 8, Rosemary, 6, Luke, now 1! and the 9 little angels that Mary is rocking.....
"What good shall we then do with today?" --Benjamin Franklin
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PDyer
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1043
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| Posted: Jan 15 2008 at 7:47am | IP Logged
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Nina Murphy wrote:
I suppose my point was hard to express and it is this: doesn't NFP and continence and understanding that we don't have a "need" or a RIGHT to relations, require a certain godliness and good formation?
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In cases where that good formation didn't take place, practicing periodic continence takes a heaping helping of grace! 
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Tubal Ever Allowed?
