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JennGM
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I've been watching this from afar. I do find it head scratching that so many of us need affirmation that we're parenting the "correct" way. Why is it that we have to have particular "methods" written and explained and exhorted by others? Are we that insecure as parents? If I would just remember to keep my own nose to the grindstone and stop paying attention to everyone else's business I think I would get to heaven faster. But I'm a slow learner.
Dh and I discuss, read, and pray (get spiritual advice) about how we conceive and raise our children and then do it. Sometimes we make mistakes along the way, and many a time "our ways are not God's ways, our thoughts are not God's thoughts." We experience physical, emotional, spiritual or whatever kind of roadblock that doesn't allow us to perfectly practice or implement our plans. But that means allowing God to be in control, not us.
Am I being to simplistic to say that there can never be just one way to raise a child? There can't be, because we are individuals, and our children our individuals -- all unique in the eyes of God. There is no one formula for sanctity, or one type of spirituality. There are many paths to Heaven...just look at the multitude of religious orders with different approaches!
There seems to be a disconnect in Popcak's reasoning. IF practicing NFP is not an obligation as a Catholic, and providentialism is allowed, then there cannot be one-size-fits-all parenting method. And while I think AP is good, I don't like being lumped into an approach. I hate labels. I take what works for me.
It always REALLY bothers me elevating scientific data and research higher than our Faith. I especially don't like educational degrees and careers being thrown in my face as proof more than an uneducated, emotional mother puts forth.
Just my two cents. And please excuse me if this doesn't make sense. I am a bit fuzzy brained, and it seems to make sense to me, but I never know what it sounds like on the other end. 
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JenniferS
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Jenn-
You made perfect sense to me.
Jen
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Taffy
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Jenn, just a short note to applaud you for this post. I was so angered when I read this debate yesterday and wanting to comment on it but not wanting to make myself more angry and not knowing how to put my thoughts into words. Now I don't have to - you've said what I was thinking perfectly.
Thanks! 
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Susan
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stefoodie
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What Jenn said!!
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Elizabeth
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LisaR wrote:
2. The main issue that I have had in past conversations with "providentialists" (and I hate labels like this) is that I often get an "open to God's Will" equals having another baby.
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I dislike the label too, though I suspect that because I do not practice NFP, it is used to refer to people like me. I hope that I never give someone the impression that what my husband I have discerned in the privacy of our own home is what I think everyone should be doing. What everyone else does is up to them and God and I truly believe that. I also know what it's like to go to a homeschool event with only two children nearly four years apart and have people wonder why there aren't one or two between them. Michael was nearly four when Christian was born and that's when I was introduced to big homeschooling families.
For me, being open hasn't always meant having another baby. Sometimes, it's meant being unable to conceive for a long stretch, during my experience with cancer and again between Katie and Karoline. Sometimes, it's meant conceiving a baby I'd never hold because I've lost them to miscarriage. In all those incidences--the closely spaced babies, the infertility, and the losses--there was God. He knew it all from the beginning and He made His will very clear.I am very grateful for my babies and I've begged for every one of them. I've also mourned the times that it wasn't God's will to have another baby.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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Matilda wrote:
[QUOTE=LisaR] The main issue that I have had in past conversations with "providentialists" (and I hate labels like this) is that I often get an "open to God's Will" equals having another baby.
Through Church teaching I know for certain that God gives us an intellect and a free Will, and that occasionally, the Will of God might be to abstain. It is a cross and these women and men need support just as much as the mom with many young children coming fairly close together need.
When a mom announces she is pregnant the response seems to often be"good for you for being open to God's will" but we cannot make that assumption any more than we can make the assumption that a mom who is abstaining chastely and in accordance with Church teaching is NOT somehow being open to God's will.
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I have to agree with this. I have been guilty of taking offense to these same conversations and it has taken me a long time to realize that it was mostly my own sensitivity (which is not the same as a "guilty conscience" as some of people have accused me) to this discussion and not the attitude of most of the moms with the extra large family.
Why am I so sensitive? Because I desperately want to be Danielle Bean/Elizabeth Foss/insert name-of-amazing-mom-here. The desire of my heart would be to have a family that size...when I got married, that was the picture of perfection I had in my head. It is painful, heart-wrenchingly painful, on a daily basis to deal with the fact that God didn't make me that way (and I have very clear, concrete signs to prove it). end quote
I, Lisa, want to add that while it might APPEAR that us moms with the "perfectly spaced families" get more kudos from the "outside world", they are often misjudging us just as much as they comment and judge the mom who has lots of little ones close together, and the pain can be just as real.
and, that while often moms of many close together can find strength, comfort, support, and a place to boldly and proudly defend their families (which I am grateful for, btw) families such as mine often slip through the support cracks, and end up with pm's stating that we need to "let go and let God" or they feel "sorry for us that we have not been blessed/haven't been able to do God's will" as they have. it is like we are too Catholic for the outside world and yet not Catholic enough in some Catholic homeschooling venues.
ok, off of my pity party now 
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Helen
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Wondering if I should add to this thread some fuzzy brained thoughts? … You've all been very understanding that maybe I'll risk a few words despite my approaching due date.
As far as attachment parenting and child spacing, I'll share my experience with God's planning. I spent a few years with one child while adoption programs we were involved in closed and other adoption opportunities vanished. Finally, when God decided to send me more children, He decided it was a good idea for me, my family and these children to have me go from one child to four in the course of 13 months. On top of it, these were children who were in dire need of AP intervention.
It seems it would have been “better” to have a child arrive every two years but I have to say, I think God thought otherwise.
He’s done this again to us. Six months after adopting a one year old, I find myself expecting a baby after 14 years of total biological infertility. I will have two new children in my household within 14 months of each other in addition to the other six. (In addition, The first one is a candidate for extra AP measures.)
Even though I’ve been married for 14 years, I’ve received seven of my eight children in the past 8 years. (Just over 8 years.) This is a true example of the way God works.
Sometimes looking at the unusual situation sheds light on the usual and this is the reason I'm risking this post.
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Elizabeth
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Helen dear,
I'm glad you took the risk. There is no doubt in my mind that you understand attachment parenting very well; at the same time you've been open to God's timing in a way that few of us have even considered.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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msclavel
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Helen, thank you so very much!
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Martha
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I have to agree with Lisbet yet again. 
I believe in what a friend of mine terms "agenda free parenting".
Long before I was catholic or a mother of many or the term was used, I was very much an eco bf-ing mama who uses many supposedly AP methods. None of which are exactly new or scientific for crying out loud. Nearly all, if not all, are methods that were in use since the beginning of time and fell out of favor the last couple centuries.
As another poster said, I did it because it was the best thing to do for my child and family at the time. And I haven't done some or many of the methods because they simply were not right for us at that time or for that child.
I agree the biggest issue I have with Popcak is two-fold:
1. - He twists church teaching to mandate a requirement of the faithful that simply is not there. Absoluting nothing in church teaching or tradition says one should give science such a prominent level of concern in the formation of our conscience or in our parenting. Nor does it ever say a couple is ever required to use NFP to be responsible. To say a couple who doesn't use NFP for whatever reason is being irresponsible is to say God is irresponsible in creating life? Same goes for saying the couple should be "ready" to receive God's gifts. Does He really think God gives us gifts we are not ready for? Now I'll readily admit there's been times when I've questioned God and my life and my parenting. Parents worry and have fears. If they didn't Mr. Popcak wouldn't have a career. But that doesn't equal not being ready. For MYSELF, 95% of the time it just means I'm a fallen weak woman and God thinks I'm ready to learn to humble myself before Him more.  The other 5% of the time we've had cause to abstain. None of that 5% had anything to do with spacing the kids.
2. It is one size fits all. I stopped reading parenting books years ago. Not because I have nothing to learn, but because it hit me that none of those studies had included MY kids or ME. They are generic, which has a very minor use as a tool in one's life, but it is not defining of the individual. I find seeking advice from other such like-minded moms in the trenches as been far more beneficial. Not "like-minded" in the sense of I'm looking for agreement, but in the sense that they too see our children as unique souls that we are forming for life, here and in heaven.
Our kids are unique souls. To treat them all with the same textbook methods is to deny who they really are. And I don't see how one can be truely attached to any child if we focus on a parenting method rather than the unique child God has put before us. The unique child is who I want to know and who I want to parent. I can never forget that it is not fair to treat them all the same way because they simply are not the same souls.
Like Lisbet said, I guess we have attachment family-ing going on here? But I'm far more with Danielle on this. I have at least 2 kids that many of the standard AP methods would have really not worked. And no, unlike what Mr. Popcak thinks, it is not due to some faulty workings of our family. It is because some gifts don't fit in the box he would like to wrap them in.
Helen,
You are an inspiration! YOU should write a book too!
I also wish being "providential" (yet another term I dislike being used on me) was used for simply what it is:
Being open to God's will, whatever it may be.
not using NFP does NOT = trying to get pregnant.
It simply means one is leaving the issue of life in God's very capable hands.
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Martha
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Lisa R
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Helen,
Thank you for writing. My first 2 (biological) came close together. Then there was a loooong break. My dd, Hannah, has only been home 15 months (adopted) and dd, Rachel, who is coming home soon (please, God) both have needed much AP. Those adoptions are only 16 months apart. And only God knows what the future holds. Another example of the "unusual" situation.
I've learned so much from your adoption posts and just wanted to publicly thank you again. 
And Lisa, I know what you mean about not feeling "Catholic enough" at some events.  That's happened to me at our previous Air Force assignment and it can be very painful. I've had my share of pity parties.
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God Bless!
Lisa, married to my best friend, Ray and loving my blessings Joshua (17)and Jacob(15), Hannah(7) and Rachel (5)!Holy Family Academy
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guitarnan
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I have to laugh, in a way. Not too long ago, AP was really considered to be "out there" and something most "sane" parents wouldn't do. I felt drawn to it with child #2 (conceived 5+ years after child #1) all the same. We were closet AP parents for a while, not daring to share our co-sleeping arrangement with others. (Unless there was a hurricane...then it was OK.)
I'm very glad that AP is now much more mainstream...but I am also glad that I've matured enough to realize that there's no magic formula for being a good or successful parent. It's in the trying, to paraphrase Elizabeth, that we see God's work in our own lives.
I've seen AP and tons of large-family love work wonders. One of my friends has 6 birth children; she and her husband adopted a spunky little crack baby who was abandoned by her mom as a preemie in the hospital. Makayla spent the first 3 years of her life or so catching up on physical development. Now, at almost 6, you would never know that some docs thought she might not walk. Her big brothers and sisters helped Mom and Dad massage her, carry her, read to her, sing with her...whatever it took.
It's all about love. Not child spacing.
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Helen
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This is such a wonderful place to discuss difficult topics. Thank you Maria, Elizabeth, Martha and Lisa!
guitarnan wrote:
It's all about love. Not child spacing.
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Nancy, you sure know how to sum it all up!
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mimmyof5
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I haven't joined in this because I don't have many children closely spaced. My oldest 2 are 2 years apart, then a 6 year gap before the next two pregnancies which were 3 years apart. Although this might seem petty, it drives me crazy when mothering is reduced to science. We have co-slept, nursed for years, carried, snuggled and hugged, picked them up and gave comfort when they cried because it felt right and because I loved holding my children. Now I find out it's all because of cortisol (??) levels.
Something my dh mentioned: What does Dr. Popcak have to say about twins??? My last pregnancy was twins, one of which had a esophageal stricture and nursed hourly around the clock for over a year. Because of this I started supplementing the other twin with a bottle/formula to preserve my sanity. I wonder what his advice would be in that situation.
I'm saddened to hear him take this narrow minded stance, imo, regarding AP, (I even found some of his remarks flippant), as I have gotten so much out of his Parenting with Grace. I've felt mothering consisted of much, much prayer, following Holy Mother Church and listening to your heart. Seems simplistic compared to his understanding of motherhood.
Janet
PS: How in the world did my mil raise 14 well adjusted, happy, successful children without ever co-sleeping, only nursing for about 6 mos., letting them cry themselves to sleep occasionally and not wearing a sling???
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Bridget
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mimmyof5 wrote:
PS: How in the world did my mil raise 14 well adjusted, happy, successful children without ever co-sleeping, only nursing for about 6 mos., letting them cry themselves to sleep occasionally and not wearing a sling??? |
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I was thinking about that all day today. I can easily think of large families from my parents generation, mine and my children's generation who could not be called AP families.
But these people are the salt of the earth. Devoted to their parents and siblings and grandchildren, their faith, ...hard working and generous...
The older generation even bottle fed and napped their children on the rigid schedule their doctor taught them. Yet these folks turned out well.
Yep, it's all about the love, the joy, the faith...
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Dawnie
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I was quite irritated by Popcak's thoughts on AP and closely-spaced children.
I, too, have found that AP makes parenting closer-spaced children EASIER, not harder! Nursing a baby in bed is way easier than getting up and trying to stay awake in a rocking chair for 15-45 min. Carrying a baby in a sling (or even better, a cloth wrap on my back!) is easier than setting up lots of expensive baby-holding contraptions. And bonus: I can actually fix food and do chores to take care of my other kids while I provide mother-baby contact for my littlest! And although I don't particularly like tandem nursing, I'll do it if it's neccessary. And really, you have to work so much harder to comfort a non-nursing toddler.
And I'll take the advice from a mom of 8 over a male psychologist any day.
Martha wrote:
| To say a couple who doesn't use NFP for whatever reason is being irresponsible is to say God is irresponsible in creating life? |
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Uh, yeah, I was wondering the same thing when I read Popcak's posts! When the next baby comes is never TOTALLY in our hands, unless we choose to abstain completely! Whenever we have relations, we are inviting God to create a new life. Even if relations occur during an infertile time of the woman's cycle.
Dawn
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ladycarobe
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I would like to add something to this discussion, I hope I'm able to express myself well, English is a foreign language to me.
An important thing, at least for ME, in this discussion is that I want the very, very BEST for my children (as we all do ).
I have a 4yo and a 17mo and we have always practiced attachment parenting. I don't think AP is neceseraly the best for everyone, I do think it is the best for my children. I have nursed my eldest until shortly after her fourth birthday, I'm still nursing my youngest.
And here I am, pregnant (7wks) and very very ill (hyperemesis). I can't take care of my children and yes, I'm weaning my youngest. It is breaking my heart! I do know that another sibling is a blessing for my children, but when I hear my youngest cry because she wants to nurse and I simply can't...I start to doubt.
I want perfection and being human I will never know what's best: breastfeeding longer & delaying a sibling or end breastfeeding and have a closer spaced sibling. It is so easy to start second guessing ourselves. I used to be a hard core think-everything-through-control-everything-and-make-the-ver y-very-VERY-best-decision person and I'm slowly starting to realise that that's impossible and too hard a burden. I guess it's difficult growing up .. And Popcak's perfectionism is not helping. 
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CrunchyMom
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I think what confuses me about Popcak's position is that I had completely different motives in choosing AP. It was nice to have the science to back up my decision to buck the mainstream, but overall, it just made sense according to natural law. It seemed according to God's plan (and in looking at traditional cultures unaffected by "scientific data" and how they parent), and to me, it is only logical that a baby nurse unrestricted, be with mom all the time, have their needs attended to, etc...
And to all this, having those methods affect my fertility made me feel more comfortable in accepting God's will for the next baby. If I nurse on demand 24/7, it seems I am placing my fertility in God's hands according to his natural design.
Charting cycles and plotting temps and such hardly seems a natural part of God's plan to me. I've done it and have no problem with others doing it, but I can't see that as a natural part of the design, yk?
Honestly, I do think its the overall best method for caring for babies. Letting a baby cry it out or using corporal punishment on baby (as some methods dictate) are wrong imo. I can respect (and hopefully not judge) that people choose those things thinking they are best, but I have trouble conceding that the methods themselves are "equal" just because "they work for someone." So perhaps this feeling is what first sparked Popcak's disagreement in dismissing AP altogether in "doing what works?"
Though, it seems to me, he has taken a rather legalistic approach more based on "science" than really looking at God's plan according to natural law. As someone mentioned, twins and even triplets have been a part of God's plan in human history. If 2.5-2.5 years is the average spacing in indigenous cultures who breastfeed "ecologically," then some people have always had a smaller spacing than that.
To be thought irresponsible for choosing to let nature (according to God's design) dictate when we have another (24 and soon to be 27 months apart ), is annoying to say the least. I guess my husband and I should have "planned" better? I mean, I didn't even cycle in between my first two pregnancies. That seems to be something that was out of my hands, yk? Heck, I always thought our spacing was pretty "good", lol. 16-19 mos without cycling seems a decent record to me.
My husband is the youngest of 12, and I do think that in some ways, his otherwise well-adjusted family exhibits some attachment issues from the "scientific" (at the time) way they were raised (and his parents as well in they way they were raised). However, I am awfully glad they had that twelfth one. They were doing what they thought best at the time (no thought of breastfeeding, etc...), and I believe God gave them extra graces for their efforts in following and accepting His will.
Plus the semantics of terms like providentialist (so, little "p" as if it isn't really God in control?) and "*completely* open" are just weird. Of course we should be "completely open" to God's will including life, and to suggest otherwise is a poor choice of words, imo. To put such labels on people is insulting. Its not as bad, and I still think Dr. Popcak has good stuff to offer Catholic parents, but the parallel to the term "breeders" came to mind since that term also seems to apply blatant irresponsibility on the part of parents.
ETA: Perhaps he underestimates that number of parents who don't space their children intentionally but otherwise follow the ideas he supports. He seems to be alienating a large part of his audience by taking a stance like this, don't you think?
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LucyP
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I HATE the way women end up having to defend themselves to one another - sort of like me with my two, after 13 years of marriage, having in the desperate years before our son was given to us to listen to people telling me dh and I were wrong to be preventing babies. And the other day, dh was with me at a place with some "crunchy mothers" who were breastfeeding and saw me get out the bottle to feed baby - and he commented on me looking ashamed and some of them looking smug or confused that a sling using, real nappy using mother would use a bottle.
I don't get why this man feels he has any right to comment on someone else's parenting, intimate relations or faith unless he sees them clearly sinning or breaking a law.
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CrunchyMom
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LucyP wrote:
| I don't get why this man feels he has any right to comment on someone else's parenting, intimate relations or faith unless he sees them clearly sinning or breaking a law. |
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I think that, as a counselor, he is advising people according to what he thinks is best. It is his job, and people follow what he says *because* they look to him for advice.
Imo, its not wrong to counsel people to seek God's best, which goes beyond simply not sinning.
The frustration lies in the fact that he is trusted by so many for his advice, and for many that support other things he has said over the years, this advice is skewed and bad.
I mean, I don't think that someone who uses NFP to space their children is clearly sinning or wrong, but were I a counselor, I certainly wouldn't share his position in advising someone.
I am sorry you feel judged. Honestly, I feel judged by some for having 2 years or more between my children. Our Catholic friends were "starting to wonder," which I choose to laugh at (I got pregnant as soon as my fertility returned both times) rather than be offended.
It is certaiinly a fine line that I daily need graces for: advocating a better choice (imo) while not judging others for not making it! I'm sure his opinions being so public makes it more difficult to walk this line (and not have others infer his judgment on them as well).
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Popcak, AP and providentialism End on p.4
